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sourclams wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:10 guys with MOK is deadly, especially when they deep strike. And for 220 points.... Well... I dunno, actually. I'd rather them be 18 points each, and be 200 exactly

Okay, so question for you, why is deepstriking 10 guys better than 10 Berzerks?

Zerkers have WS5 and FC. They have to pay for a rhino, but the Raptor squad is probably DSing off of an icon so that's kind of a wash.

Raptors with MoK can't assault the turn they show up, so you're using them for suicide melta? A 220 pt squad? If you're willing to take a turn of not shooting after showing up, why not just stick with berzerks? 2 meltas (or flamers, or plas) is enough to compensate for WS5 / FC?

They aren't. You're right.

But I'd never. ever. Use ten guy squads and even attempt to put melta in there. There's no point, when they have the ability to take two in a five guy squad.

I'd min-max that, for sure. No fists either.
5 Guys, IOCG, x2 melta.... 130 points
3 Terminators, x3 combi meltas, IOCG... 130

Let's see... 3 ONE shot weapons and a better armour save (which is irrelevant for suicide units, mostly), but less wounds. As compared to a 5 Wound annoyance unit that actually has potential to pop in and do damage for more than one turn. Plus! It takes up the worst slot in the codex, so you can do both!

Ailaros wrote:

kenzosan wrote:how do they ignore terrain?

They fly over it.

did i read the rule wrong? i've taken difficult terrain tests going over terrain, cuz the rule says if they "enter, exit, or go through" now im pissed if i didnt have to -_-

Kirasu wrote:Also the models are awful

Security will escort you from the building.

ph34r wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Also the models are awful

Security will escort you from the building.

I agree. I love the concept; bird-like feet, fast, aerodynamic helmets, jagged jump packs. They look amazing! I only wish they were plastic, so I wouldn't have so many tip-overs

Wait... 5man Raptors are limited to 1 special, aren't they? That more or less shoots them down as a cheap meltacide unit...

sourclams wrote:Wait... 5man Raptors are limited to 1 special, aren't they? That more or less shoots them down as a cheap meltacide unit...

Nope you can get 2 specials no matter the size. And if you ditch the points for the icon you can clock them in at a cool 120pts. Still not as cheap as a 3 man termicide, but their melta's keep firing and they still have 2 attacks a piece and jump packs to move around.

I swear, am I on ignore?

whitedragon wrote:

kenzosan wrote:
im pretty sure 2 meltas require 10 man squads. its been about a month since i read the codex and longer since i cared about a raptor squad.

but either way, drop in 3 tl meltagun obliterators if were gettin points to number of meltas.

1 - Raptors can take 2 specials without having 10 men.
2 - 3 Oblits cost 225, that's 100 points more than our raptor squad. Maybe 2 Oblits, and they need not Deepstrike every game either. Also, see above, our HS slots are full.

Warmaster wrote:

sourclams wrote:Wait... 5man Raptors are limited to 1 special, aren't they? That more or less shoots them down as a cheap meltacide unit...

Nope you can get 2 specials no matter the size. And if you ditch the points for the icon you can clock them in at a cool 120pts. Still not as cheap as a 3 man termicide, but their melta's keep firing and they still have 2 attacks a piece and jump packs to move around.

I mean, I answered this on the previous page!

I think Raptors are not bad, but they are not troops, and they are not better than Berserkers, and playing to your strength tends to be the best strategy. Here's why I think this:

1. Melta should not be a problem for properly supported Berserkers. CSM in a rhino are a better delivery system, and they happen to be troops.
2. I think people are really underestimating FC and WS 5. The extra initiative allows you to strike first against solid CC opponents, say, Grey Hunters. Hitting is quite frankly better than wounding (even though Berserkers do both better) because you roll more dice when hitting. It's better to hit 3+ and wound on a 4+ then hit on a 4+ and wound on a 3+.
3. Mech is one of the most popular strategies, and this is for a reason. A transport acts as a shield, it can tank shock, it provides mobility. Maybe Raptors, get in CC faster, but they don't hit as hard, and they are less likely to make it there intact. In short, mech means greater flexibility.
4. Compared to say, BA assault marines, Raptors are pretty junky. With the simple addition of a Sanguinary Priest, the BA assault marines hit first, wound more easily, and are harder to kill, while being cheaper. Grey Hunters can be pretty nasty in CC to. Summarized, this means that Raptors are over priced and under performing.

I second mustela send me a pm

The models are awful. I actually have squad of 10 setup for anti-infantry (2 flamers). I used bodies from khorne Berzerkers (with the "horns" cut off the heads) and ordered soem SM jump packs. Works a treat!


Chuck a MoK to give them the extra attack to make them workwhile. With the flamers setting them up they can take on pretty much anything short of CC Termies.


But even saying this, i would sooner go with a squad of 'Zerkers in a rhino to get soem CC power.

The models are awful. I actually have squad of 10 setup for anti-infantry (2 flamers). I used bodies from khorne Berzerkers (with the "horns" cut off the heads) and ordered soem SM jump packs. Works a treat!

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I personally love the models, the only problem is the clunkiness.

As for tactics, I don't plan on using them in groups larger than five. I'm just fine on anti-tank, as I actually do something unorthodox and bring Predators to the game for my anti-tank. Scoff as you wish, I've found them to be ridiculously reliable and pretty damn cheap for taking out enemy vehicles.

I plan on using a cheap non-marked squad of five as an escort for either my winged Chaos Lord or my winged Sorcerer, as at the moment they both have nothing that can move along with them to provide ablative wounds. I'll include melta guns in the squad as a little bit of insurance, as they're bound to be able to get a better angle on the battlefield than my predators, and there will always be a transport to pop prior to assault. The set-up I've got in mind comes out to 160 points, which in my opinion isn't bad at all for a relatively durable squad of ablative meat that can augment the HQ they're attached to considerably in close combat. This is something that can't be fulfilled by any other unit in the codex. It's cheap, it's fast, and it's effective, in my opinion. Sure, it's a very limited role, but it's a damn useful one.

kenzosan wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

kenzosan wrote:how do they ignore terrain?

They fly over it.

did i read the rule wrong? i've taken difficult terrain tests going over terrain, cuz the rule says if they "enter, exit, or go through" now im pissed if i didnt have to -_-

Going over =/= going through. The only time they're going through is if they're walking instead of jumping.

They are slightly over-costed and bring nothing to the table that the ever popular troops choices already don't:

2 Special Weapons
2 Attacks (BP & CCW)
Moves up to Twelve inches
Can Take Icons
Actually has less champ options

Seriously, the CSM Squads do the same thing they do, for cheaper, and they score. And you can take six of them, and they can hide in Rhinos. Rhino > Jump Pack.

Platuan4th wrote:Going over =/= going through. The only time they're going through is if they're walking instead of jumping.

so if i start here X and jump to here X and terrain is in between but i dont touch it at all, im gold? omg! i feel stupid

i still dont see raptors as useful, still prefer bikes, just saying this again to keep on track

Let's try solving this with bullet points...first of all, I'll admit: I'm biased-I like Raptors. I think they do well, but I'll give the haters a chance to see both sides.

Pros:
-Can Deep Strike in suicide order for cheap melta guns
-Do previous statement while taking up the worst FOC slot so you don't have to waste other areas
-Great cover to get your tooled out CC lord/sorc into combat
-2 melta guns in a 5man squad and cheap (yes, 120pts for MEQ is cheap)
-Great range to attack from (18 inch "charge" range, including the mvmt)
-Can get icons up to the front fast to teleport in Daemons/terminators

Cons:
-not a troop-neither are my sternguard for BA-still use them
-not as good as berzerkers, BA assault marines, etc etc. everything has a place though-use them in addition, not as your driving force
-plague marines also get 2 meltas with 5 guys and can take a rhino to survive to get into melta range (and that costs you HOW much?)
-The models suck. Wonderful-convert your own

Like I said, I'm biased. But the arguments as to why they're bad seem like people are trying to justify to themselves as to WHY they're bad. Try them, and use them WITH the army...don't treat them AS the army. Tell those of us who have realized they are good what your results are when you get around to them.

I realize I'm fighting an uphill battle though with my Raptor-loving brethren, so if somebody can photoshop the "haters gonna hate" Dreadknight picture to include a Raptor instead, please do so. I want to see the reactions to that one

Mustela wrote:
Hitting is quite frankly better than wounding (even though Berserkers do both better) because you roll more dice when hitting. It's better to hit 3+ and wound on a 4+ then hit on a 4+ and wound on a 3+.

This is not an accurate statement. The outcomes for these are statistically identical to one another. Think of it this way - you have 30 attacks, for each you roll two dice. In order for an attack to cause a wound it must roll a 4+ on one dice and a 3+ on the other dice. If you roll all the dice at once you can expect 10 wounds (3/6 * 4/6 * 30). Imagine the same set of dice, now you need to roll a 3+ on one dice and a 4+ on the other dice. If you roll them all at once you can expect 10 wounds (same as before).

When you roll to hit and then to wound, instead of in pairs of two for each attack, what you are really doing is saying...I need both conditions to be true, if the first one is false, I can save time not rolling for the second condition - since an 'and' is false if one of its conditions are false. Both these have the exact same probability distribution and the exact same expected value.

Mustela wrote:
4. Compared to say, BA assault marines, Raptors are pretty junky. With the simple addition of a Sanguinary Priest, the BA assault marines hit first, wound more easily, and are harder to kill, while being cheaper. Grey Hunters can be pretty nasty in CC to. Summarized, this means that Raptors are over priced and under performing.

Comparing units in one codex to those in another on an individual basis does not make sense. Comparing units on an individual basis to units in the same codex is pointless unless they are examined in the context of the cohesive whole. I am not saying Raptors are good or bad, but this comparison does not really provide any useful information unless you are designing a new codex.

For example, Sisters of Battle Rhinos do not come with smoke or searchlights, cost 15 points more than standard SM Rhinos. Therefore, those Rhinos are over price and under performing. I will not take Rhinos for my sisters...?

calypso2ts wrote:

Mustela wrote:
Hitting is quite frankly better than wounding (even though Berserkers do both better) because you roll more dice when hitting. It's better to hit 3+ and wound on a 4+ then hit on a 4+ and wound on a 3+.

This is not an accurate statement. The outcomes for these are statistically identical to one another. Think of it this way - you have 30 attacks, for each you roll two dice. In order for an attack to cause a wound it must roll a 4+ on one dice and a 3+ on the other dice. If you roll all the dice at once you can expect 10 wounds (3/6 * 4/6 * 30). Imagine the same set of dice, now you need to roll a 3+ on one dice and a 4+ on the other dice. If you roll them all at once you can expect 10 wounds (same as before).

When you roll to hit and then to wound, instead of in pairs of two for each attack, what you are really doing is saying...I need both conditions to be true, if the first one is false, I can save time not rolling for the second condition - since an 'and' is false if one of its conditions are false. Both these have the exact same probability distribution and the exact same expected value.

Mustela wrote:
4. Compared to say, BA assault marines, Raptors are pretty junky. With the simple addition of a Sanguinary Priest, the BA assault marines hit first, wound more easily, and are harder to kill, while being cheaper. Grey Hunters can be pretty nasty in CC to. Summarized, this means that Raptors are over priced and under performing.

Comparing units in one codex to those in another on an individual basis does not make sense. Comparing units on an individual basis to units in the same codex is pointless unless they are examined in the context of the cohesive whole. I am not saying Raptors are good or bad, but this comparison does not really provide any useful information unless you are designing a new codex.

For example, Sisters of Battle Rhinos do not come with smoke or searchlights, cost 15 points more than standard SM Rhinos. Therefore, those Rhinos are over price and under performing. I will not take Rhinos for my sisters...?

Mmm... okay, I'll give it to you about the hitting wounding statement, but comparing units makes quite a bit of sense. However I'm not saying that you shouldn't take Raptors, and I took great care not to say that Raptors are unusable. I am just saying that the competition can do what Raptors do better, and therefore, you're going to be down on that level. Maybe sister's Rhino are over priced, that doesn't make them unusable. The Rhino case is different, Sisters need Rhinos for Rhino rush, but CSM do not need Raptors, as other things can do what they do better, while sisters do not have a better option.

kenzosan wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

kenzosan wrote:how do they ignore terrain?

They fly over it.

did i read the rule wrong? i've taken difficult terrain tests going over terrain, cuz the rule says if they "enter, exit, or go through" now im pissed if i didnt have to -_-

You go OVER terrain with jumppacks and jetbikes and wings etc. If you finish your move in it, or start your move in it, you are entering or exiting.

Raptors for me are a bully unit. I field them in squads of 7, not only because pappa nurgle rules all ( ), but also because a CSM is 15p and a rhino is 35p. For 140p i can get a squad of 7 raptors, which are more mobile, or a squad of 7 CSM in a rhino, which are more survivable. Now at first they don't seem that much more maneuverable, as they both move 12", but the raptors 1) technically move faster up the field because you can run d6", and 2) can go OVER things. The horrible thing that happens to my 'zerkers is they charge a throw away unit that gets hurled in their path. My raptors go over it. That objective sitting on the other side of a large LOS blocking terrain- my raptors go over it. That now empty rhino that the opponent can use to block narrow passages or create funnels- doesn't work, my raptors go over it.

Now, as far as their CC ability goes, its nothing that crash hot. Most dedicated CC units will happily get in a headbutting match with raptors. So throwing these boys into assault terminators or a big mob of genestealers, probably not the best of ideas. What they CAN CC happily is things like Tac squads, IG HWS squads, fire warriors, scout squads, dire avengers, devastators/havoks/long fangs, pathfinders... anything that is not a dedicated CC unit won't be too happy about a bunch of raptors charging them, especially if they are sitting on an objective. You can also use their mobility charge a unit already engaged in melee, or charge a target that must die with another squad+the raptors. They need to work like bully's- don't go for the big bad guys, pick on the weenies. If you have to fight a big guy, make sure you bring some friends. Or if your friend is already fighting a big guy and not doing to well, run up behind him and punch 'im in the kidneys! That is how raptors assault.

Now, to help them bully things around, we give them two meltaguns. Because now they don't just bully your capping units, your HW toting squads (LF's/dev's/IG HWS etc), but they can threaten your tanks and transports. And other things too- I once jumped them behind some terminators i was about to charge with zerkers, between the terminators and his command squad. I turned and shot the terminators with the meltaguns, slagging two of them (woot!), and left the zerkers to charge, and stood in the way of his counter attack. The zerkers managed the remaining terminators, and countercharged his command squad beating up my raptors. Those meltaguns can hurt MC's, walkers, tanks, transports, heavy infantry. It's not as terrifying as say a termicide squad landing next to your tank, but they aren't like termicide. They are bullies, they pick on the weaker enemy units or gang up with other parts of the army to punch on.

Yes CSM have the same equipment as far as CC goes. Yes CSM in a rhino with meltaguns are better for setting up things like zerker charges. Raptors aren't there to do that. They can jump up within melta range so when your CSM fail your not screwed however, and if they blow the rhino up, your raptors can hit something else.

Wow, thanks for that.

The one thing I'd note is that you're selling raptors (at least with MoK) short with regard to dedicated CC units. Per point, MoK raptors shred through both power blobs and slugga mobs with terrifying speed and efficiency.

Plus, a 8x raptor with 2x melta and fist against 5 THSS assault termies sees 2 killed before the thunder hammers even swing, and at the end of the first round, the most common result is 2 THSS termies against 5 raptors, which then wipe the termies the next round at about half their starting strength.

I have been Struggling to find a Use for my vanilla Assault Marines in my Foot army(aside from just paining them Red and doubling my army as BA).

the unit costs 220 points(10 Assault marines +Powerfist&Storm Shield on the Sgt), and the only use i have really found for them is to deploy them just behind my gun line and wait with them until the enemy gets within rapid-fire range of the gun-line, then jumping them forward to about 1" from the enemy(granting the enemy a 4+ cover save from my Gun-line's bolters) shooting 10 bolt-pistol shots into a unit, and assaulting anything in front of them. This ties up the charging enemy, helps kill some of them, and only takes up about 12.5% of my 1850 list.

I think there is a general perception based upon the most popular net lists that there are better choices for the points and this thread echoes that sentiment to a large degree. If you are willing to go against the trend then you'll probably find that Raptors can be a viable choice for the points.

Ailaros wrote:Wow, thanks for that.

The one thing I'd note is that you're selling raptors (at least with MoK) short with regard to dedicated CC units. Per point, MoK raptors shred through both power blobs and slugga mobs with terrifying speed and efficiency.

Plus, a 8x raptor with 2x melta and fist against 5 THSS assault termies sees 2 killed before the thunder hammers even swing, and at the end of the first round, the most common result is 2 THSS termies against 5 raptors, which then wipe the termies the next round at about half their starting strength.

For 7 points less you can get an 8 man unit of Khorne berzerkers in a Rhino to do basically the same thing, while scoring, with a higher WS, and in an ablative metal box.

or for 25 points more you can get 10 Regular Chaos marines with the mark of khorne, power fist Champ, and 2 meltas, also while scoring and in an ablative metal box(it is 15 points less when you drop 2 Marines and the second melta, although for only 5 points less you can retain the Second melta in the form of a Combi).

The point of all that is that there are better choices for similar points to do exactly the same thing you intend to use the raptors for.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The point of all that is that there are better choices for similar points to do exactly the same thing you intend to use the raptors for.

They're not better, though. If the ONLY thing you're looking at is kills:point then you're missing the entire point of raptors. Raptors are far more mobile and flexible than CSM or berzerkers in a box.

I think they are a decent rapid response unit, good for guarding a flank or leaping ahead to deal with a specific threat preemptively. Take melta or flamers, depending on exactly what you expect to have to roast. My main motivation for taking them is as bodyguards to a winged sorcerer, one of the variant HQ's I use. I think they should still have Hit and Run and Daemonic Visage. It set them apart and gave a modest nudge to their otherwise average assault marine stats.

Actually, next codex they will probably have Jetpack movement, Relentless, and drop rending templates on units they pass over using the Daemonic Exhaust rule.

Ailaros wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:The point of all that is that there are better choices for similar points to do exactly the same thing you intend to use the raptors for.

They're not better, though. If the ONLY thing you're looking at is kills:point then you're missing the entire point of raptors. Raptors are far more mobile and flexible than CSM or berzerkers in a box.

I was not just looking at Kills:points; I was also looking at:
Survivability while incoming
General WS, or ability to fire while waiting for the enemy to get close
and Scoring

As far as maneuverability except for Dense terrain set-ups(where the raptors may die while flying around anyways) The Box-wearing 'Zerkers/CSMs are just as maneuverable for all but the last 18"(really the last 6 as the CSMs can pull up, bail out and rapid fire; then receive the charge).

If we are trying to bring meltas to the table, I would take a 5 man chosen with 5 meltas over them any day. The ability to outflank in a rhino packing 5 meltas is waaaaay better, and only costs 175 pts.

i personally like raptors, but that's just me. but they dont excel in fire power, horribly over priced for what they do, and basic CSM are cheaper in points, and have better equipment.

Shelegelah wrote:

The models are awful. I actually have squad of 10 setup for anti-infantry (2 flamers). I used bodies from khorne Berzerkers (with the "horns" cut off the heads) and ordered soem SM jump packs. Works a treat!

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I personally love the models, the only problem is the clunkiness.

Quite right, i should have made myself more clear. I actually really like the styling of the models, the helms are nice and the Jump Packs, IMO look WAY better than SM packs. The main reason i dont like the models is that they are a) metal, and b) Too tall and prone to toppling. Also the kit only come with twin claws for the lord and a choice of 3 different metal guns, making it impossible to have a 2 melta sqaud from one pack.


If they brought out a plastic kit with poses similar to SM marines but maintaining the Raptor armour look, i would snap them up.

@ OP

You seem to have already made up your mind about Raptors.

The general consensus seems to be that Raptors are good, but there happen to be better choices, which you seem to be ignoring.

I think the consensus is that Raptors can be good, if you kit them out right. You cant just chuck a random squad of 10 into the fray and expect them to perform.

I still think the kit lets them down a lot.