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Personally, I love the Raptor models. The only problem is that Raptors themselves are completely redundant, in that almost nothing they do is unique. The Icon prices are also insanely overcosted, meaning it's either IoCG/IoK, or nothing.

I've used them a couple times for fun, and was not impressed. Termicide does suicide melta better, we have bawkses for movin' fast, and Raptors aren't going to kill anything in CC that regular CSMs can't.

Praxiss wrote:I think the consensus is that Raptors can be good, if you kit them out right. You cant just chuck a random squad of 10 into the fray and expect them to perform.

I still think the kit lets them down a lot.

i think that could be said about alot of kits though

with chaos, i think that first statement applies more so then for any other army because they have so many options to choose from (maybe eldar as well)

The thing is, though, they don't perform a particular role better than anything else. They are a "unique" unit I guess, they just have a bit of an identity crisis.

odorofdeath wrote:The thing is, though, they don't perform a particular role better than anything else. They are a "unique" unit I guess, they just have a bit of an identity crisis.

That'd be the big sticking point in my mind. One can prove that Raptors are "not bad". They are MEQs, they do some things reasonably well, they can carry meltas/specials or perform a specific role such as retinue for a wings lord.

It's much harder to prove that they are actually good, especially given the strength of the MEQs in the troops section of the codex. Raptors are sometimes taken to compensate for competition in a slot or two, but are rarely ever taken for their own merits.

@ OP

You seem to have already made up your mind about Raptors.

The general consensus seems to be that Raptors are good, but there happen to be better choices, which you seem to be ignoring.

Not really. I've made up my mind about the one particular role I plan on using them for, and I've received a bit of feedback that leads me to believe that they'll be perfectly effective and reasonably-priced for what I want them to do.

However, you don't hear me arguing about their effectiveness in assault versus something like a boatload of Berzerkers or a large pack of melta-toting CSM, because the way I use raptors doesn't clash with those two roles in my mind. I made this thread with the general purpose of establishing why Raptors are so godawful in everyone's minds, and I've received a great amount of feedback suggesting exactly what you've said: That from an overall perspective, Raptors are good, but there are better choices. For most situations, I would definitely agree. They're not going to put out as much hurt or soak up as much damage as a lot of other units out there, like Khorne Berzerkers or Plague Marines.

The thing is, though, they don't perform a particular role better than anything else. They are a "unique" unit I guess, they just have a bit of an identity crisis.

For the most part you're completely right, but their abilities as a retinue for a winged lord or sorcerer are extremely useful. Like I said earlier, you can get a cheap five man squad with a few meltas to pop the odd transport, and then you just point your squad in the right direction and let your beatstich HQ and his bodyguard do their stuff. Only raptors are suited for this role, because no other unit in the codex can slap a jump pack on in order to keep up with the winged lord. I don't know about you fellas, but I really hate it when my HQ who is busy flapping his way to the enemy lines gets FREEMed by a stray lascannon and gets ID'd.

Does this mean that raptors are a good overall unit? Probably not. It does, however, mean that they have a role that they can fulfill better than anything else, regardless of how limited it might be. Sure, this role might not fit your strategy at all, but that's alright. People play differently. I like to keep my HQs alive until they can do some damage, and I like to keep them very mobile, so I take a small squad of bodyguard raptors.

I might start using a small sqaud to escort my winged DP across the board, wont be a squad but they can keep up with him and break LOS.

I think that Raptors can serve a purpose in CSM lists. Their main problem is that there are other units that can do their job either better/faster/cheaper or from a safer position etc.

If you play the same opponents regularly they can also be a good unit to throw your usual opponents off and give them something they didnt expect you to take. Whilst I think the models look cool they are very impractical as they are quite top-heavy and don't hide behind Rhinos as well as their Imperial counterparts!

Getting them into combat relatively untouched is the key. (Isn't it always?!) They can undoubtedly do damage if left to their own devices.

If it were up to me though I would prefer to take bikes. Although they are more expensive they can pack a nasty punch and are generally harder to kill.

Raptors are sometimes taken to compensate for competition in a slot or two, but are rarely ever taken for their own merits.

Exactly. Raptors are good for filling in holes in your list, especially thanks to their location in the FA slot of the CSM dex, where they have virtually no competition.

Unfortunately, that begs the question of "Why don't you just put the specials on your dudes in the first place?". most people load up on double specials, so raptors aren't needed to help pick up the slack.

As to their "role" as bodyguards: True, nothing else can keep up with a wingaling Lord or Sorc. But whenever I take a Sorcerer, I just pop him in a Rhino for better, cheaper protection. And I never take Lords, but I'd do the same with them. Raptors just suck up too many points to be efficient ablative wounds, IMO.

wildboar wrote:If it were up to me though I would prefer to take bikes. Although they are more expensive they can pack a nasty punch and are generally harder to kill.

I'm still curious about this. Given that bikes cost 33% more, this means that it's 33% easier to wipe out a squad of them. They add +1T, but they also have a 1 in 6 chance of crashing horribly in terrain. They can turboboost, but they can't do it through terrain, so you have to compromise your field position sometimes, and you can't do anything else in a turn you turboboost?

It seems to me that it would be more difficult, not less, to wipe out a squad of raptors than a squad of bikes at the same points cost.

Ailaros wrote:

wildboar wrote:If it were up to me though I would prefer to take bikes. Although they are more expensive they can pack a nasty punch and are generally harder to kill.

I'm still curious about this. Given that bikes cost 33% more, this means that it's 33% easier to wipe out a squad of them. They add +1T, but they also have a 1 in 6 chance of crashing horribly in terrain. They can turboboost, but they can't do it through terrain, so you have to compromise your field position sometimes, and you can't do anything else in a turn you turboboost?

It seems to me that it would be more difficult, not less, to wipe out a squad of raptors than a squad of bikes at the same points cost.

Absolutely wildboar: take your bikes, probably with mark of nurgle and make them extremely expensive. One of my friends did this once, ate a huge chunk up of his army and I dropped my flamers of Tzeentch right next to the squad. One round of shooting, one 300pt squad gone. I agree with Ailaros on his points cost argument and his crashing argument and add in my own. Chaos bikes are worthless-your raptors are far superior (those are my words that chaos bikes are crap).

wildboar wrote:I think that Raptors can serve a purpose in CSM lists. Their main problem is that there are other units that can do their job either better/faster/cheaper or from a safer position etc.

The main problem with other units is when you to go down a narrow street blocked by a chimera to get at the Leman russ. Or when you have to batter your way through a throwaway screen unit. Or the is doing the two rhino's/razorbacks an inch apart set like a chevron, with the squad shooting your through the gap. Your CSM can roll right into their grill with their rhino and - they can shoot at the marines, who will get cover if they use plas/metla, or they can shoot at one of the two rhino's, and maybe slag one. If you have a squad of raptors, you can jump over the block and get straight into the marines. Yes other units can do "the same job", and safer etc. But that's because raptor's are just a special weapons platform apparently. The more you think of your raptors as just a special weapons squad the worse they seem.

My friend used basic CSM marines with extra jump packs, with all the icons etc they look great, especially in the Night Lords scheme.

In game terms they do really well: 10 with a pair of melta guns and a Lord, Mark of Tzeentch makes them a pain in the ass- thats until the Death Company arrive

Ailaros wrote:Actually, I'd like to piggyback on this question. I've got it in my head that I might just try three groups of 9 MoK raptors with 2x melta and a fist.

On paper, these guys are DEAD killy (as in, they go through a 31-man power blob in 2 or 3 rounds of combat while only suffering 50% casualties). If they actually are crappy, I'd like to know now.

1 squad would work strategically maxed out at 290 points but why 3? Big point sink, 23 summoned daemons for the same cost would be the best way to go. Maybe field 1 squad like this and throw in abaddon dsing with 3 termies squads, have khorne berserkers in rhinos, plague marines with plasmas in rhinos, icons are only 5 pts for the premarked squads.

Ailaros wrote: you're bringing only 2/3ds the number of shots

But they do have twin linked bolters...

geordie09 wrote:

Ailaros wrote: you're bringing only 2/3ds the number of shots

But they do have twin linked bolters...

I crunched the numbers assuming both were headed straight for the other and both units cost around 450 points(440 for the bikes); that was 18 Raptors w/ASp Champ, Pfist, 2 meltas, MOK vs 10 Bikes, Asp champ Pfist, MON; The raptors did a fair amount of damage(roughly 2 dead bikes, vs 4 dead raptors) by the time they made it into combat(it was only 2 turns of shooting, I had given the bikes first turn and started them about 36" away) I didn't even bother with the close combat at this point.

Yeah, I was actually wrong before, bikes cost 50% more, not 33%. For 50% more cost, they get -10% firepower, -33% close combat attacks*, and -37% durability against small arms fire.

And you can't ignore terrain, and you ALWAYS crash into terrain (raptors can walk if they want), and they can't fly over friendly or enemy units, nor can they deepstrike.

For all that disadvantage, the only real ability is to exchange being useful for a turn to get a 3++ save (that doesn't work against a colossus, et. al.), and for you to be able to single tap plasma out to 36".

whoop... de do...


* It's actually worse than this because while raptors give up their bolters for special weapons, and retain their bolt pistols and chainswords, bikers have to give up their bolt pistols, and thus one of their close combat attacks.

I thought Chaos bikers gave up their bike-mounted bolters instead of their bolt pistols, though I could be wrong.

Fetterkey; that was the 3.5 dex(and the models, but that doesn't matter) Current Dex the Bikers give up their CCW(keeping their BP) and Raptors give up their bolt pistols(they never had Bolters to begin with). Net result is that both units lose 1 attack when taking a Special weapon, but bikers rarely get the MOK, while Raptors usually do.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Raptors give up their bolt pistols(they never had Bolters to begin with)

I'm not sure that's true, unless they FAQed it.
The way it's worded makes it sound like they can trade their pistol for a plasma pistol, or, if they don't do that, take a melta, flamer, or plasma gun. It doesn't say they have to trade their pistols for any of those.

Biggest issue I've seen with raptors when fielded against my IG is that they either walk into cover, giving up their speed, fly into cover, losing a few to the idiots that bullseyed the trees instead of flying between them, or stay in the open, and get decimated by Basilisk and LRBTs. Good units if used right, but require a bit more finesse then most chaos units, and if using the normal models, require casting solid lead bases to keep them upright

The way it's worded makes it sound like they can trade their pistol for a plasma pistol, or, if they don't do that, take a melta, flamer, or plasma gun. It doesn't say they have to trade their pistols for any of those.

That's correct, it says they may take special weapons, not replace anything.

Shelegelah wrote:It seems that the general consensus is that Raptors for CSM are bad. Why is this? A squad of five raptors with two meltaguns and a champion with lightning claws is only 160 points. That's really not all that steep a cost, really, and makes it a pretty decent bodyguard for a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer with wings. Why the hate?

The 2 most popular troops choices for CSM players are

5 Plague Marines with 2 melta guns and a power fist is only 15 points more than the raptors, or 50 points more and just as fast with a Rhino, Same firepower, nearly identical CC offensive power, FNP, and a scoring unit. Many players will choose to upgrade the squad to 7pm for fluff.

10 CSM in a rhino with 2 melta guns, a pfist, and an IOCG=255 points. Can add a havoc launcher or combi melta to boot.

If all the CSM troops move 12" and have melta guns the raptors are not filling a vital role that is not already filled, and raptors can't take objectives.

If you have tons of points to spare, raptors are simply meh.

If you don't have points to spare, raptors are bad.

There are numerous things that can fill their role just as well and score, namely in troop choices.

The only thing they have going for them is speed. While that is nothing to sneeze at, usually chaos marines have to devote their points to spamming what really few (but very solid) units they need to take.

"Up to two raptors may replace their Bolt pistols with Plasma pistols for X pts per model, or take one of the Following:"

Notice 2 Things in the Above rules quote:

1) the Word Replace.

2) That funny little thing that looks like a period with a tail on it. Yeah, that's called a comma; it signifies that the words that come after are a continuation of the words that come before it and are not a new sentence nor a separate thought.

Given those 2 You replace the bolt pistol for the Melta, Flamer, or Plasmagun.

Before anyone tries to bring up the fact that a comma can be used to separate 2 related sentences that have been conjoined: Sentences do not begin with the Words "And", nor "Or"; the Word "Or" directly behind the comma informs us that it is a Continuation of the Earlier thought, and the Earlier thought in this case is that the bolt Pistol is replaced for the different weapon.

"Replace" or "Take", though; those are two different verbs, in two different clauses. "Take" does not in any way imply "replace".

I think, Kommissar Kel, that you're missing out on the 'or' in that sentence. The rule says that you may replace your bolt pistols with plasma pistols, OR take one of the following.

In case that wasn't clear enough for you, here's an example sentence to get you going.

'You can walk to the store, or you can rub my feet.'

See how the addition of 'or' makes the two options mutually exclusive? You can do one or the other, not both. You can replace a bolt pistol with a plasma pistol, or you can take a melta gun, plasma gun, etc.

Actually, the problem is if the word "or" was designed to be exclusive or not. Is it "or" as in at the player's discretion, they can do either of these two things (or both, or neither, in any combination), or is it "or" as in, the player can take upgrades, replacing their weapon from one of the following things on the list.

It really isn't clear which was intended, but every time I've read it so far, I've been reading it as that you can have a squad of raptors with two plasma pistols AND (non-exclusive "or"), two meltaguns, if you so foolishly desired.

Actually, one could make an exclusive argument for this as well. A player may either (one or the other, but not both)

- replace up to 2 bolt pistols with plasma pistols

or

- take up to 2 melta guns, et. al.

Getting my mind out of the edition the codex was written in(and earlier editions) wherein models could not generally have more than 2 weapons, I will agree with you guys as correct: flamer, Melta, and Plasma gun do not replace the Bolt Pistol.

However, Ailaros: you certainly, under any circumstances, could not have 4 special ranged weapons. Only 2 models can upgrade, and then it is either/or: either replace pistol for PP, or take the rifle-type

Shelegelah wrote:It seems that the general consensus is that Raptors for CSM are bad. Why is this? A squad of five raptors with two meltaguns and a champion with lightning claws is only 160 points. That's really not all that steep a cost, really, and makes it a pretty decent bodyguard for a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer with wings. Why the hate?

They look good but compare to a termicide unit of 3 with 3 combi-meltas and 1 chainfist. You get all of this for 120 points, get 3 shots, 2+ SV and a more effective HTH option. The only plus for raptors is that they use non-crunched fast attack slot in a FOC.

Chaos really is still competitive but points wise it is starting to lose any glimmer of hope. Its only real advantage left is highly competititive troop choices - that cost an awful lot. Also the fact that a base CSM has a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW. That loses out to SW at least and probably other options as well.