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It seems that the general consensus is that Raptors for CSM are bad. Why is this? A squad of five raptors with two meltaguns and a champion with lightning claws is only 160 points. That's really not all that steep a cost, really, and makes it a pretty decent bodyguard for a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer with wings. Why the hate?

Mostly because all marine jump pack units have been bad until blood angels. Theyre good cause theyre troops

5th ed is a mech edition.. Its better to shoot 2 meltas from inside a rhino than outside a rhino.

Also the models are awful

Actually, I'd like to piggyback on this question. I've got it in my head that I might just try three groups of 9 MoK raptors with 2x melta and a fist.

On paper, these guys are DEAD killy (as in, they go through a 31-man power blob in 2 or 3 rounds of combat while only suffering 50% casualties). If they actually are crappy, I'd like to know now.

Ailaros wrote:Actually, I'd like to piggyback on this question. I've got it in my head that I might just try three groups of 9 MoK raptors with 2x melta and a fist.

On paper, these guys are DEAD killy (as in, they go through a 31-man power blob in 2 or 3 rounds of combat while only suffering 50% casualties). If they actually are crappy, I'd like to know now.

a power blob costs how much? Thats usually how they get ya.

Well, two 8-man MoK raptor squads with fists costs 460. 2 31-man power blobs cost 450.

If you look at just close combat, the raptors kill 17, and the champs fist 4 more. 35 regular guys kill 2 and the 6 power weapon guys kill 3 more (41-11). The next turn, 9 raptors kill 8 and the champs fist 3 for 2 more casualties (assuming you focused your attacks on one of the blobs as best you could) for 30-9. The next round, the raptors kill 9 for 2 in return (21-7). The next round it's 8 to 1 (13-6) followed by 8 to 2 (5-4), and then the raptors wipe the guardsmen.

Even in this less than ideal circumstance (really, you're taking on 2 power blobs at the same time, which is less likely to happen with fast units like raptors), the raptors beat their points in power blobs, and still have half a squad worth of killing power left.

Not too shabby.

They don't score points.
They aren't packed to the gills with rending or power attacks.
They don't have invulnerable saves (Unless you take MoT).
They don't have FNP.
They don't work well when thrown unsupported into the teeth of the enemy army.
They don't work well when you throw them at the scariest CC units in the game unsupported and at a 1:1 ratio of bodies. (And by the gods, it has a bolt pistol and chainsword AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT!!!! Also see: Vanilla ASM)
They don't get to have an expendable metal box around them.
They aren't TH/SS Terminators. (The most likely real reason.)

They aren't bad, but people generally regard other choices higher, for whatever reason. I'm guilty of this myself with my loyalists: I need land speeders more than I need fast moving CC. My land raiders with vanguard, command squad, or TH/SS have a better threat range than ASM in most situations, and will do more once arriving...but if I wanted, I could get a LOT of ASM for those points, and probably do fine. I just don't have the models or FOC chart slots to attempt it.

I have been smacked with MoN raptors when I played guard right after the current chaos codex came out. It hurt. It hurt a LOT, and my power weapons wounding on 6s really stacked things in their favor. I know, I know, I should've been chimera`d to heck and back...But theres this minor detail of "The rest of the chaos army"...and when they're supported by that, your chimeras start popping, and raptors start hitting CC with things that cannot stand up to them.

I repeat: They aren't bad. As a guard player, they are pretty freakin scary. As a MEQ player, they're still a cause for concern.

They arent Blood Angels.

Jackster wrote:They arent Blood Angels.

Lol. So far, that's the only real reason I'm getting so far.

Well, that and "they're not terminators" which is equally silly.

They're expensive for what they do, and they're only real purpose is the melta
If you want cc goodness, there are other units in the CSM codex that could do it better
And on the melta note, they're really not very good at that either, considering a unit of normal CSM in a rhino with meltas is generally better
I've heard a couple ways of running them though;
an effective thing is giving them melta, then keeping them behind your rhinos as you advance, so that they can pop out and clean up tanks when they reach the enemy lines.

Ailaros wrote:

Jackster wrote:They arent Blood Angels.

Lol. So far, that's the only real reason I'm getting so far.

Well, that and "they're not terminators" which is equally silly.

Because a 10 man CSM squad with two meltas, a rhino and Chaos glory is 215pts, and a 7 man squad of Plague marines with a rhino and two meltas is 216pts. Thats why

A squad of Raptors for 160 points? If I'm not mistaken, a Defiler is 150 points, isn't he/it?

AwesomeFex wrote:A squad of Raptors for 160 points? If I'm not mistaken, a Defiler is 150 points, isn't he/it?

this is why raptors are not good
your right btw, defiler un upgraded is 150

I like them, mainly because it allows me to convert a whole squad from loyalist models (trying some sanguinary guard atm)

Sledgio wrote:I like them, mainly because it allows me to convert a whole squad from loyalist models (trying some sanguinary guard atm)

just remember wings and jet packs are actually different

I like Raptors.
Not for their options, but for their ability to bring a chaos icon close enough on the battlefield to bring the many deep-striking units a CSM army can field where they are needed, and to move again if necessary.

If they had a bit 'more' for what you pay for...

I mean seriously, even one more special rule from what they used to have would make it not as bad.

-Visage
-H+R
-3rd Special Weapon

...anything...just something instead of being so vanilla/spikey assault marines lite.

You really don't see them because they're in the same army list that includes Khorne Berserkers. Sure the berserkers don't have the inherent mobility of the raptors, but that is almost made up for with the metal box and they are much more brutal in assault. You want murdering blob squads, it doesn't get much better than berserkers. Raptors themselves aren't bad, they're just not troops in an army that has one of the best troop sections in the game. Now if you could give Berserkers jet packs and make them fast attack, i'm sure they'd still get a lot of burn.

The big difference between raptors and rhinos, though, is that the raptors can move up to 6" more, and that they can assault after they move 12". Raptors are WAY more mobile than CSM in rhinos.

Berzerkers are also very good, but they get furious charge and + 1WS at the cost of being much slower on the field.

i preferred fielding bikes over raptors tbh. im pretty sure bikes can get an icon, if not oh well, they got access to better weapons and toughness and are just as fast. mark of nurgle on raptors t5, mark of nurgle on bike t6, much more win in taking a hit and surviving long enough to do something (if you go nurgle)

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Because a 10 man CSM squad with two meltas, a rhino and Chaos glory is 215pts, and a 7 man squad of Plague marines with a rhino and two meltas is 216pts. Thats why

I think this largely covers it. It's not 'why are Raptors bad' (although there are some quantitative reasons there), but moreso 'what do Raptors bring to the table [that I don't already have in spades]?'.

In general, a Chaos list has dozens and dozens of MEQs with either 1/5 or 2/5 carrying special weapons.

What are Raptors? MEQs with special weapons at a price premium with jump packs.

When I objectively sit back and look at my Chaos lists and say 'what am I missing here?' it's almost never more T4 3+ power armor bodies. Raptors are faster than any other variant of non-LR CSM, but is the speed worth the loss of scoring status, the price premium, and the lack of a chaos rhino, which with havok launchers or combi upgrades is easily among the best darn troop transports in the game?

This could be argued all day by many, but let's look at it this way: Quantitatively, Raptors are worse than BA jump troops. Does it add enough to my army (of rhino rush MEQs) to spend points on a poor man's version of what a different army does better? In specific cases, maybe yes; jump Lord/Sorc bodyguard, deepstriking melta (although termicide does that far, far better), but in general I would say no.

5 Raptors is still 100 points right? With 2 meltas, they are a very cheap melta delivery system, that sucks up a Fast Attack slot that you're most likely not using anyway.

5 Raptors deepstriking or jumping around with 2 meltas aint bad, especially if they can hide behind a rhino or something.

If you're elite slots are filled up, they can make decent "Raptor-cide" squads. They are also fluffy for Night Lords and their models are cool.

whitedragon wrote:5 Raptors is still 100 points right? With 2 meltas, they are a very cheap melta delivery system, that sucks up a Fast Attack slot that you're most likely not using anyway.

You've already got 3 Termicide death squads with more melta on the turn they arrive for cheaper. How much suicide melta do you need? Won't a smoked rhino with 5 Plagues and 2 meltas do this just as well while having utility elsewhere (yes, I acknowledge the point premium).

I admit that if you're featuring Chosen with 5 plasmas then you may have to compromise to Raptors from Termicide but even at 2500 3x4 Termicide and 3x3 Oblits has always felt like "enough".

whitedragon wrote:5 Raptors is still 100 points right? With 2 meltas, they are a very cheap melta delivery system, that sucks up a Fast Attack slot that you're most likely not using anyway.

5 Raptors deepstriking or jumping around with 2 meltas aint bad, especially if they can hide behind a rhino or something.

If you're elite slots are filled up, they can make decent "Raptor-cide" squads. They are also fluffy for Night Lords and their models are cool.

im pretty sure 2 meltas require 10 man squads. its been about a month since i read the codex and longer since i cared about a raptor squad.

but either way, drop in 3 tl meltagun obliterators if were gettin points to number of meltas.

Please, I play Raptors in all my army lists and I face Blood Angels and Space Wolfs evrey saterday and beat them to a bloody pulp with my 9 man Raptor unit. I think you forget that jump troops are basically assualt troops chain sword/bolt pistol with upgrades with plasma pistols, melta bombs and a champ with lightning claws can ruin just about anyones day and they can Deep Strike. Raptors not good troops, well dont be foolish as they are very dangerous.

They aren't. It's a sort of taboo to talk about raptors, or.. heavens no, Use them in a list

They're only twenty points, can take marks, can take meltas, can deep strike, and have grenades. That's pretty great, especially for CSM, who are a rather slow army in the first place.

10 guys with MOK is deadly, especially when they deep strike. And for 220 points.... Well... I dunno, actually. I'd rather them be 18 points each, and be 200 exactly

kenzosan wrote:i preferred fielding bikes over raptors tbh. im pretty sure bikes can get an icon, if not oh well, they got access to better weapons and toughness and are just as fast. mark of nurgle on raptors t5, mark of nurgle on bike t6, much more win in taking a hit and surviving long enough to do something (if you go nurgle)

This is actually really interesting, as I've also been considering bikes. The problem with bikes, though, is that while they gain a bit of toughness and the ability to move faster, they are also 50% more expensive, which means you're bringing only 2/3ds the number of shots and close combat attacks, and fewer bodies once things like plasma arrive AND you have to deal with bikes crashing all the time, unlike raptors, which just ignore the terrain they move over, and can walk into close combat.

Bikes may be cooler, but they seem SO MUCH worse to me.

sourclams wrote:

whitedragon wrote:5 Raptors is still 100 points right? With 2 meltas, they are a very cheap melta delivery system, that sucks up a Fast Attack slot that you're most likely not using anyway.

You've already got 3 Termicide death squads with more melta on the turn they arrive for cheaper. How much suicide melta do you need? Won't a smoked rhino with 5 Plagues and 2 meltas do this just as well while having utility elsewhere (yes, I acknowledge the point premium).

I admit that if you're featuring Chosen with 5 plasmas then you may have to compromise to Raptors from Termicide but even at 2500 3x4 Termicide and 3x3 Oblits has always felt like "enough".

C'mon clamsy, that's not the only way to run Chaos. Some of us run the Monster Mash, and our Elite and Heavy Support sections are filled to the brim with Dreads and Defilers.

kenzosan wrote:
im pretty sure 2 meltas require 10 man squads. its been about a month since i read the codex and longer since i cared about a raptor squad.

but either way, drop in 3 tl meltagun obliterators if were gettin points to number of meltas.

1 - Raptors can take 2 specials without having 10 men.
2 - 3 Oblits cost 225, that's 100 points more than our raptor squad. Maybe 2 Oblits, and they need not Deepstrike every game either. Also, see above, our HS slots are full.

Samus_aran115 wrote:10 guys with MOK is deadly, especially when they deep strike. And for 220 points.... Well... I dunno, actually. I'd rather them be 18 points each, and be 200 exactly

Okay, so question for you, why is deepstriking 10 guys better than 10 Berzerks?

Zerkers have WS5 and FC. They have to pay for a rhino, but the Raptor squad is probably DSing off of an icon so that's kind of a wash.

Raptors with MoK can't assault the turn they show up, so you're using them for suicide melta? A 220 pt squad? If you're willing to take a turn of not shooting after showing up, why not just stick with berzerks? 2 meltas (or flamers, or plas) is enough to compensate for WS5 / FC?

Ailaros wrote:

kenzosan wrote:i preferred fielding bikes over raptors tbh. im pretty sure bikes can get an icon, if not oh well, they got access to better weapons and toughness and are just as fast. mark of nurgle on raptors t5, mark of nurgle on bike t6, much more win in taking a hit and surviving long enough to do something (if you go nurgle)

This is actually really interesting, as I've also been considering bikes. The problem with bikes, though, is that while they gain a bit of toughness and the ability to move faster, they are also 50% more expensive, which means you're bringing only 2/3ds the number of shots and close combat attacks, and fewer bodies once things like plasma arrive AND you have to deal with bikes crashing all the time, unlike raptors, which just ignore the terrain they move over, and can walk into close combat.

Bikes may be cooler, but they seem SO MUCH worse to me.

how do they ignore terrain? the rule is if a jump goes in, out, or through terrain you take a test. if you walk you lose all that speed you had.

LordWynne wrote:Please, I play Raptors in all my army lists and I face Blood Angels and Space Wolfs evrey saterday and beat them to a bloody pulp with my 9 man Raptor unit. I think you forget that jump troops are basically assualt troops chain sword/bolt pistol with upgrades with plasma pistols, melta bombs and a champ with lightning claws can ruin just about anyones day and they can Deep Strike. Raptors not good troops, well dont be foolish as they are very dangerous.

those guys dont play ba good then? iv run through alot of stuff with my assault squads and deat company w/ jp. i really want to know how a raptor squad beat a death company when your only advantage is 1 lightning claw.

kenzosan wrote:how do they ignore terrain?

They fly over it.

sourclams wrote:Okay, so question for you, why is deepstriking 10 guys better than 10 Berzerks?

I wouldn't anticipating deepstriking raptors very often, but I could see it in a few rare occasions as a nice option.

For example, against a guard leafblower list, berzerkers are going to be subject to a lot of shooting before they get to the front rank of chimeras. DSing raptors can't get shot at before they arrive, and can show up out of the blue in melta range and blow something up. Also, raptors get to keep their bolters, which means that you have the option of blowing away things that are better to handle outside of close combat (like harlequins, banshees, wyches, and the like).

For the same price, raptors gain the ability to take meltaguns, the ability to have SOME shooting power, and the ability to pin-point deepstrike, not to mention the much faster movement. It seems like a fair trade for -1WS and no FC. Not to say that raptors are universally better, but to say that raptors can round out a berzerker-heavy list with a little bit of flexibility.