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Made in us
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Beijing, China

Nightwatch wrote:
Assuming that you intend to murk your opponent on the first turn, how would a list like this hold up at 1500 points?
Haemonculus x 3
Haemonculus x 3
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow

shock prows? seriously? Tankshock and ram them to death?
No power weapons or even venom blades. How are you going to deal with terminators or plague marines. sure they may be tarpitted for a while but you wont win. eventually they will break through.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/31 18:56:59


Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
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Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior



Curitiba, Brazil

Nightwatch wrote:
Haemonculus x 3
Haemonculus x 3

Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow

Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow


You could start getting rid of the Hydras and Shock Prowls for Hekatrixes with Venom Blades to begin being competitive.
   
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Exergy wrote:
Nightwatch wrote:
Assuming that you intend to murk your opponent on the first turn, how would a list like this hold up at 1500 points?
Haemonculus x 3
Haemonculus x 3
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow

shock prows? seriously? Tankshock and ram them to death?
No power weapons or even venom blades. How are you going to deal with terminators or plague marines. sure they may be tarpitted for a while but you wont win. eventually they will break through.





Agreed.

A couple Shock Prows are good tactical additions (although not as much in a list with no Jetfighters/Liquifiers). Nine of them is overkill.
   
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Decatur, TN

Dash wrote:In my opinion, the sole and shining weakness of Dark Eldar is getting shot at; thus the phrase "Glass Cannon." Mechanized IG are the biggest threat to Dark Eldar because they can simply outshoot the Dark Eldar at every turn....and it doesn't take much math to compare multi-lasers to Dark Lances.


I agree 100%, as a Dark Eldar player I usually get 1st turn (Thank you Baron) and use that first turn to make sure I'm out of range of return fire and I neutralize all my ranged threats. Thats why IG are such a disgusting matchup...they have the same range (or higher!) of my guns, and stupid multilasers are better anti-tank vs a raider than a lascannon.

But personally I listen to Marilyn Manson to get pumped, listen to the song "Tourniquet" from Antichrist Superstar or "The Fight Song" from Holy Wood, always motivational for some killing!

Learning 7th edition to prove that DE still rule the roost!
 
   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

I just listened to The Fight Song (and watched the video) for it.....and it didn't do it for me.




On a sidenote, I'm half-done with the Deployment part. I had a crazy day today at work so didn't get to it. Nuclear construction, owed a customer 1.2 million in invoices for Purchase Orders that we hadn't written yet, running between purchasing and quality and engineering....getting signatures, stuff written, system updates...this week has been very stressful. Taking the day off tomorrow, poker game at my house tomorrow night with friends, it'll get done.

Hulksmash and Dashofpepper put the fear of Xenos into people at They Shall Know Fear
Dashofpepper's Guide to Tournament Preparation, Survival and Success!
 
   
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Chicago

Great thread dash, I'd like to see more "hardcore competitive guides to winning with army x" threads. I think we have a lot of great threads around about random tactics and lists but its great to be able to pick the brain of someone who is pretty close to being a professional gamer. I look forward to reading your future threads on DE


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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

And...part II is done.

*EDIT* Forgot to talk about choosing deployment zone and objective placement, so added those.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/31 23:00:24


Hulksmash and Dashofpepper put the fear of Xenos into people at They Shall Know Fear
Dashofpepper's Guide to Tournament Preparation, Survival and Success!
 
   
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Looking forward to the precision bits. That will be the best for me.

Live for the day...

The day you utterly crush and destroy your enemy. 
   
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OZ

Okay, I can see how your tactic can make you win, but it really doesn't look like a good way to go about it. You speak of being gentlemanly about the whole thing yet your methods are beardy and mentality devoid of any conscience.

Oh sure chalk it up as 'gettin in the mood' but really its a win first fun second approach. IMO any list that spams or any rule bashing that requires you to carry photocopies of an obscure article to wave in your opponents face is just pitiful. Do you play any online FPS games? They have something called Spawn Camping which is a tactic favoured by the 'must-wins' while completely ruining the experience for everyone else, and its exactly what you describe here. Some people do it because they dont care, others because they think if they can they should, when if you want to be a real sportsman and a real general you'll defeat your opponent on their strengths and yours.

People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.

sdrawkcab eman sih sngis ohw lived eht si ti 
   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Dicelowly wrote:Okay, I can see how your tactic can make you win, but it really doesn't look like a good way to go about it. You speak of being gentlemanly about the whole thing yet your methods are beardy and mentality devoid of any conscience.

Oh sure chalk it up as 'gettin in the mood' but really its a win first fun second approach. IMO any list that spams or any rule bashing that requires you to carry photocopies of an obscure article to wave in your opponents face is just pitiful. Do you play any online FPS games? They have something called Spawn Camping which is a tactic favoured by the 'must-wins' while completely ruining the experience for everyone else, and its exactly what you describe here. Some people do it because they dont care, others because they think if they can they should, when if you want to be a real sportsman and a real general you'll defeat your opponent on their strengths and yours.

People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.


Wow.

1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.

2. This thread is not about how to create a fun game for your opponent. I established that much in the OP. It is about how to be vicious, how to kill, and how to win. Did you not see Manchu's post? If all you have to offer to this thread is "OMG BEARDY CHEETER WAAC!" Feel free to not post here anymore.

Hulksmash and Dashofpepper put the fear of Xenos into people at They Shall Know Fear
Dashofpepper's Guide to Tournament Preparation, Survival and Success!
 
   
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Holy Terra

This is not a thread about debating friendly play styles. This is a thread about competitive play. If you don't have questions or comments about the particular tactics discussed then simply move along.

   
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Mounted Kroot Tracker





Ontario, Canada

Dashofpepper wrote:
1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.



I think he was talking about the FAQ here, the one that explains the rules for reserves moving onto the board and if they're blocked. I'd say that was more of a rules clarification than an actual rules change though, as the rulebook is blank on that respect and doesn't explain what to do in such a circumstance. Although, the FAQ is by no means an obscure article either, and any competitive tournament has to have some sort of ruling on those issues, whether they use GW's FAQs and Errata or even the INAT.

Dash, have you ever had problems with people over the FAQs? I'm not much of a tournament-goer myself, but I can imagine that there would be a lot of anxiety about that sort of thing, specifically on issues like the reserves one mentioned before.

*EDIT* And of course, I forgot the actual reason for my post: I really enjoyed Part 2, especially now that there are pictures. I'm a little confused about the "Checkerboard pattern" you mentioned earlier though. The way I understand what you said, you rush all your skimmers to your opponent's table edge, and orient them in such a way that it is impossible for the other army to move LESS than 12" to get onto the board, therefore taking away all chances of him shooting later on.
The thing is, how would you be able to do this? if the board is 6 feet long, you're going to need a heck of a lot of raiders and ravagers to accomplish this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/01 02:19:17


Night Watch SM
Kroot Mercenaries W 2 - D 3 - L 1
Manchu wrote: This is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone says, "it won't change so why should I bother to try?" and then it doesn't change so people feel validated in their bad behavior.

Nightwatch's Kroot Blog

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Eternal Plague

Part II looks good. It again focuses on the fact that the army is build to table and explains in depth the choices you face during deployment when facing an enemy.

I'd like to hear answers as to how an opponent could answer the DE strategy DoP listed.

Can't wait to see part III.

   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Nightwatch wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:
1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.



I think he was talking about the FAQ here, the one that explains the rules for reserves moving onto the board and if they're blocked. I'd say that was more of a rules clarification than an actual rules change though, as the rulebook is blank on that respect and doesn't explain what to do in such a circumstance. Although, the FAQ is by no means an obscure article either, and any competitive tournament has to have some sort of ruling on those issues, whether they use GW's FAQs and Errata or even the INAT.

Dash, have you ever had problems with people over the FAQs? I'm not much of a tournament-goer myself, but I can imagine that there would be a lot of anxiety about that sort of thing, specifically on issues like the reserves one mentioned before.

*EDIT* And of course, I forgot the actual reason for my post: I really enjoyed Part 2, especially now that there are pictures. I'm a little confused about the "Checkerboard pattern" you mentioned earlier though. The way I understand what you said, you rush all your skimmers to your opponent's table edge, and orient them in such a way that it is impossible for the other army to move LESS than 12" to get onto the board, therefore taking away all chances of him shooting later on.
The thing is, how would you be able to do this? if the board is 6 feet long, you're going to need a heck of a lot of raiders and ravagers to accomplish this.



Answers...

1. No, I've not had problems with FAQs. At tournaments, people generally have their own FAQs, and most tournament goers who aren't a novice to the scene also have a pocket rulebook and either know the main rulebook FAQ clarifications or carry it with them.

2. I *rarely* see INAT in use anywhere. Its a contentious document because it changes rules that were clear to start. As a general rule - you can expect the GW FAQs to take precedence, INAT usually adjusts anyway.

3. Anxiety about the FAQ: This is the sort of thing that you discuss with opponents before the game. I don't like taking advantage of opponents' lack of knowledge for gain, so I always discuss rules that might affect them, and ask if there are any questions about my army that I can answer for them. The biggest affect that particular ruling has is that vendettas can no longer reserve and move combat speed onto the board - there is no rotation that would completely fit them onto the table. It also affects tank shocking onto the table (specifically against vehicles), but it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

4. The checkerboard pattern: Think about a wave serpent. You don't need to line the board. A raider is...6" long or so? A wave serpent is about 6" in diameter? That means you can be about 6" back from the table edge (maybe 5"). You don't have to line the edge tail to fin, just not create gaps big enough for a wave serpent to move onto the table and still be 1" away from your stuff.

Hulksmash and Dashofpepper put the fear of Xenos into people at They Shall Know Fear
Dashofpepper's Guide to Tournament Preparation, Survival and Success!
 
   
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OZ

Dashofpepper wrote:
Dicelowly wrote:Okay, I can see how your tactic can make you win, but it really doesn't look like a good way to go about it. You speak of being gentlemanly about the whole thing yet your methods are beardy and mentality devoid of any conscience.

Oh sure chalk it up as 'gettin in the mood' but really its a win first fun second approach. IMO any list that spams or any rule bashing that requires you to carry photocopies of an obscure article to wave in your opponents face is just pitiful. Do you play any online FPS games? They have something called Spawn Camping which is a tactic favoured by the 'must-wins' while completely ruining the experience for everyone else, and its exactly what you describe here. Some people do it because they dont care, others because they think if they can they should, when if you want to be a real sportsman and a real general you'll defeat your opponent on their strengths and yours.

People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.


Wow.

1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.

2. This thread is not about how to create a fun game for your opponent. I established that much in the OP. It is about how to be vicious, how to kill, and how to win. Did you not see Manchu's post? If all you have to offer to this thread is "OMG BEARDY CHEETER WAAC!" Feel free to not post here anymore.


If you're going to shoot down genuine critique as being some mindless flame then its hardly showing any confidence in your post. Please make your responses respectable by addressing the points raised, instead of exaggerating the enthusiasm of my opinion as an insult to my intelligence.

To take the emotion out of it (which from reading your OP was something I gathered you'd accept) can you offer any tactics which enable you to win honourably? As in, without scraping for inches by tweaking models unrealistically, or threatening your opponent with spawn camping (that is what it is) so they dont play reserve?

sdrawkcab eman sih sngis ohw lived eht si ti 
   
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Two additional notes on enemy reserves:
1. If your enemy reserves their army and isn't skimmer based, make sure that when their turn 2 starts, your entire army is flat-out, and that *everything* has a 4+ save regardless of its position on the board. Additionally, play around with your vehicles, their contents and a table edge. If you have enough vehicles, you can line their table edge in two turns - at which point non-skimmers are automatically destroyed. While the GW FAQ 1.1 allows players to tank shock onto the board, it also notes that if a unit stops with any part of it off the board, it counts as destroyed. A rhino attempting to ram a skimmer from off the table stops 1" away from the raider to resolve the ramming attack. IE, it has stopped and is still not on the table. Personally, if my opponent fully reserves in this situation and hasn't inspired my ire with a bad attitude thus far (while the game is beginning), I'll tell them what I plan to do after they announce that they are fully reserving, show them the FAQ and the clarification if it comes up, and tell them that I don't want to win like that - so ask them to deploy on the table anyway.
2. If your enemy *is* skimmer based (Eldar and Dark Eldar) you can use roughly the same strategy - except that you flat out your vehicles in a checkerboard pattern *near* their table edge. I don't have a picture of this to show, but the goal is for enemy reserves to not be able to move onto their table edge, and have to fly over you to get onto the table - more than 12", so that they don't get to fire anyway. Alpha-strike denial. If you haven't done this before, play around with your models near a table edge to get a feel for the pattern and unit dispersal you need to accomplish it.


This tactic actually intrigued me... I had never thought of that.

Though I tend to play armies without vehicles, so not realizing that makes sense :-)

So, for Dark eldar, it is basically the opposite of Eldar in terms of weather they like reserves or not? hmmm
   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Dicelowly:

You're obviously not a competitive gamer - that's fine. Make a thread asking for advice instead of posting in this one. Even your halfhearted "To take the emotion out, can you offer any HONORABLE tactics" is a sham. If you wish to selectively apply the rules, that's fine. Since all you offer to the thread are insults that I'm cheating, please leave.

Hulksmash and Dashofpepper put the fear of Xenos into people at They Shall Know Fear
Dashofpepper's Guide to Tournament Preparation, Survival and Success!
 
   
Made in us
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If you're going to shoot down genuine critique as being some mindless flame then its hardly showing any confidence in your post. Please make your responses respectable by addressing the points raised, instead of exaggerating the enthusiasm of my opinion as an insult to my intelligence.


That was not genuine critique... That was saying that his post was dumb because it was saying how to win rather than how friendly games work...

Friendly games and games were you are trying to win are not the same thing. At tournaments, would you chose not to take a good unit because your opponent wouldn't like it if you did? Of course not... you would be out game one.

The game in a "for fun" standpoint is far different than a competitive standpoint. A majority of your games will be for fun, and many will be to win.

People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.


Obviously you have never seen a competitive eldar list huh? "beardy tricks" is how they win...

   
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OZ

Really? Why do you even do that? Did I say you cheated? Did I put anything in unreasonable caps? Would it have been so hard to respond normally and politely? I seriously wanted to know; do you know any way of winning without playing that way. Im sure they didn't design the army so that the only way to victory was along those lines.

Its not an unreasonable question, and would you please stop insulting me already. We both made it clear that's not going to fly so drop it. Do you know an honourable way to win with Dark Eldar? Its not bs, its not having a go, you've played a heap of games and maybe you know.

If you dont, "no" is an acceptable answer and I'll look elsewhere. Didn't mean to step on any nerves.

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Holy Terra

@Dicelowly: You're new here so I am giving you a chance to bow out of this thread without earning your first suspension. Your comments are off-topic here and I know that you could not have failed to see my comments at the beginning of this thread given that they were written in bright red. You can either contribute to this thread by discussing the tactics or you can walk away. Your points are off-topic. If you don't have anything to add then you are in violation of our rules and I will suspend your account.

   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Dicelowly, read the OP - there are some links there that would be valuable from any perspective.

*edit* This thread isn't about how to play DE, which I think you're after. This thread is about how to refine a solid DE general into a razor edge of competitiveness. The things you're asking for advice on are plentiful around Dakka - from myself and others. Look through the first couple of pages of the tactics forum here for threads and posts by myself and Ketara (Has Thor665 posted anything?). In this thread, I'm presuming that the interested reader already *knows* how to play DE, can build an excellent list, and use it well. Again - this is all in my OP - this thread is "Advanced tips and tricks."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/01 04:51:00


Hulksmash and Dashofpepper put the fear of Xenos into people at They Shall Know Fear
Dashofpepper's Guide to Tournament Preparation, Survival and Success!
 
   
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@dice: I do believe we are still in deployment. There really is no tactics save how to give yourself coversaves. The ability to stop your opponent from wanting to reserve is a tactical advantage.

He did in fact say that he warns the opponent beforehand. If the opponent choses to ignore this, that is there fault.

We haven't even gotten past deployment and you are complaining about being unfair because the FAQ explicitly states what happens if you do this.
   
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Hey dice, so taking advantage of an opponents errors to win is 'beardy'? I think this stance runs counter to both the idea of playing to win, and to being a good sportsman.
Asking them to follow the rules is wrong? Again isn't part of being a good sportsman and an efficent general having a firm understanding of the situation (the rules the game operates under) and the best ways to turn that to ones advantage, like take the high ground, don't invade russia in winter, or don't reserve when your opponent can block your entry?
And the offical update to the BRB is obscure? I thought everyone everywhere would want to encourage people to use the most current versions of the rules? Otherwise when playing against a new player one could be in for some nasty surprises.



Dash: With the baron in WC, what have you considered? I see the non situation-specific options as running down a flank, reserving or if beasts somehow found their wa along for the ride =P


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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

ChrisCP wrote:

Dash: With the baron in WC, what have you considered? I see the non situation-specific options as running down a flank, reserving or if beasts somehow found their wa along for the ride =P



Not sure what you're asking? What is WC? Could you elaborate?

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Lafayette, IN

I think WC is wych cult. He is referring to your statement about not yet finding a place for the baron in a cult list. As far as I can tell at least.

 
   
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The only place i can really see the baron in a Wych cult list is with some kind of beast master retinue.
   
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Are people actually allowing you to take cover saves on vehicles with a sideways Raider frequently?

They're so spindly that it's very difficult to actually cover 50% of another vehicle from an opposing unit. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it certainly isn't going to cover everything in your second row of vehicles consistently. Haphazard, but definitely clear shots will be available.

Although, you're still left with 5+ after that. Just wondering how many 4+ saves you're actually getting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/01 05:47:42


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
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Dashofpepper wrote: He’s not in my wych cult – only because I haven’t figured out what to do with him in it yet. He’ll end up there.

notabot187 wrote:I think WC is wych cult. He is referring to your statement about not yet finding a place for the baron in a cult list. As far as I can tell at least.

Yep, Wych Cult

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Nightwatch wrote:I'm a little confused about the "Checkerboard pattern" you mentioned earlier though. The way I understand what you said, you rush all your skimmers to your opponent's table edge, and orient them in such a way that it is impossible for the other army to move LESS than 12" to get onto the board, therefore taking away all chances of him shooting later on.
The thing is, how would you be able to do this? if the board is 6 feet long, you're going to need a heck of a lot of raiders and ravagers to accomplish this.


Dashofpepper wrote:4. The checkerboard pattern: Think about a wave serpent. You don't need to line the board. A raider is...6" long or so? A wave serpent is about 6" in diameter? That means you can be about 6" back from the table edge (maybe 5"). You don't have to line the edge tail to fin, just not create gaps big enough for a wave serpent to move onto the table and still be 1" away from your stuff.


The following picture should not allow a wave serpent to move less than 12" when moving on from the table edge without coming to within 1" of a raider or having part of it hang off the board.
This is my interpretation... but i think its more or less accurate, or has the basic principles down at least. Although it would change for differeing opponents with differing vehicle sizes/speeds.
[Thumb - checker.png]


WLD: 221 / 6 / 5

5 Dragons 2011: 2nd Overall

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Dicelowly wrote:...........mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar..........



Waitaminute....*squints*

Whaddaya mean 'even Dark Eldar'?

That's where the 'dark' comes in.


 
   
 
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