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"It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army. "

Dash do not take it so hard. It sounds like you play Hulksmash a lott, so he probably knows a lott of your tricks. Also, while it was the first time for him with a new codex it probably was the first time for you against the same codex?

If IG gunlines have trouble with GK then that is a good thing for the DE as IG gunlines will become less popular.

I am shure you will be polishing the battlefields of warhammer knightly grey with red spots on top once you get the gang of it. :-)

ive been using "mind games" for a while. it can help a bit, ill admit. the whole "mind rage" thing tho... thats a little off for me as im generally a pretty easy going guy. that said, ive now played 5 games using this guide, not the mindset stuff but other info, some of which i knew and some i did not, and as a result ive won my last 5 games. each time my opponennt "called it" after his 4-5th turn - wich i take a result of my tabling him. the most recent victory was a 3000 pt apocalypse game in which i sucsessfully ganked and assploded a reaver titan without it even firing a shot. (i was also fielding a titan, my revenant, which ive re socialized to the dark side)


ive also fought a grey knights army twice recently. both games ended fast, simply because the sheer speed and mobility of the venoms avoided his 24" guns, and proceeded to shred him with splinter and lance fire. even the so called "shunt punt" failed. the trick failed horribly when after his scout shunt move, i revealed my vect/malys combo to reposistion my army to shoot the #$%# out of him, but also steal init on a 4+. "thanks for teleporting your expensive stuff right up into range of me. much obliged! </insert sound of massed splinter cannons shredding dreadknight>

Niiai wrote:"It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army. "

Dash do not take it so hard. It sounds like you play Hulksmash a lott, so he probably knows a lott of your tricks. Also, while it was the first time for him with a new codex it probably was the first time for you against the same codex?

If IG gunlines have trouble with GK then that is a good thing for the DE as IG gunlines will become less popular.

I am shure you will be polishing the battlefields of warhammer knightly grey with red spots on top once you get the gang of it. :-)

qft....
i hope to see an end to the mech guard armies....

Thank you much for the tactica.

I have nothing to offer further to this tactica other than I humbly submit this music for motivation to getting the correct mindset for a competitive game.







and



Thanks.

Niiai wrote:"It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army. "

Dash do not take it so hard. It sounds like you play Hulksmash a lott, so he probably knows a lott of your tricks. Also, while it was the first time for him with a new codex it probably was the first time for you against the same codex?

If IG gunlines have trouble with GK then that is a good thing for the DE as IG gunlines will become less popular.

I am shure you will be polishing the battlefields of warhammer knightly grey with red spots on top once you get the gang of it. :-)

It wont kill IG mech. This happens with every new codex release, it takes a while for everyone to get the hang of fighting a new army. Everyone adapts and moves on. Dash will keep playing DE and keep smashing face.

That music is pretty sweet Gar. If it makes you angry and eager to smash something, then its a good thing for getting in the right mindset.

Hi Dash,

I love your OP and especially the part 1 of getting in the right mindset, it really works: my Skimmers prove to be almost invurnable vs Melta weapons.
I just wanted your opinion on the following points:
-Why do need 9 wyches, only for the HWG? I'm typically running smaller squads: 6-8 and still happy with their performance, since I don't value the S3 attacks in CC as much as Agonisers
-I see you prefer not to use Special Weapons for Wyches, personally I always add an Shardnet & Impaler: they help a lot vs PF, Dreadnaughts, IC's and other nasty attack I don't want to hit my wyches to often. I feel it adds to their strength: refusing to die in CC.
-I use Grisley Trophies (GT) and Enhanced Aethersails (EA) on my CC Raiders. I like the GT as a safety for when I fail to win my CC, it happens you roll bad in CC. The EA may be less obvious to use since 24" is already far but I like to be able to show my opponent that he really can't hide. I can reach every corner on the table now with my CC raiders.
-Do you advise to use any HQ other than Heamies? Like an Archon kitted. Per example I now run a Archon kitted to kill of IC's in 2 rounds of combat: with an Electrocorrosive Whip, Blast Pistol, SF, CD and Soul Trap. He loves Runepriest, Priests and the likes. I added the CD for some more effectiveness. Ok I can see this isn't maybe to most point-effective build but I do like his results so far. I see him as a glass cannon: if he is aimed vs the right squads he can quickly move up to S6 and becomes a killing power which hacks through anything. If he can get to S10 vehicles and dreadnoughts fear him too.

Warning: these topics might have been discussed before a lot but I do wanted to question some:
-I my reading of the rules you can't add 2,5" to the movement of 12" before you disembark by rotating your transport. It simply is a 14,5" move which disallows disembarking. I must say I maybe play too much by the rules because in tournaments I typically see people steel inches during lots of movement: for example move the first model 6" and move other models freely up to him, even if they were more than 6" away. Another example is during the pile in 6" isn't measured for every model, they just get moved in BTB.

So my question is: since some of your tactics involve precise movement in inches during counter pile-in: how do you get your opponent to keep move only 6" with every model? Do you measure every model he moves?

-In your diagram of avoiding the Powerclaw: shouldn't the Wyches assault the big block of Orks, instead of the Nob? You need to lock the claw out of combat, right?

I must say I really like the pictures, they help a lott. :-)

El Jairo:

Wyches are best served as a counter-attack unit, or to hammer on units specializing in ranged firepower. If I need to tackle a dedicated close combat unit, I'd prefer to either shoot the gak out of it first, or assault it with my beast unit - which at least has rending to go along with the volume of attacks.

Shardnet/Impalers: There are plenty of threads discussing wych weapons and these in particular. Against a halfway competent opponent, they are NOT going to get their utility against your listed targets, with the exception of dreadnoughts. If you're assaulting dreadnoughts with wyches...you have issues.

Grisly Trophies and Enhanced Aethersails. Chances are, if I'm assaulting with one unit of wyches, I'm assaulting with 2-4 units of wyches. Enhanced Aethersails...not so useful. You can reach the entire board by turn two anyway - enhanced aethersails don't let you do anything you couldn't already do. They'd be useful if they were used in the movement phase and didn't count against your movement speed, but....alas, it is not meant to be.

HQs: There's another thread near the top of the tactics discussion at the moment about DE HQs. Give it a read. Also one about Lady Malys where I linked that same thread.

Rotation: Rotating a raider does not count towards your movement. If you have a 12" long and 1" thin vehicle, rotating on its axis does not mean you've already moved 6". The rulebook EXPLICITLY tells you that rotation does not count against your movement, and that it is a free action. Don't tell me that you play by the rules and won't do it, because thems *is* the rules.

Precise movement: If my opponent's movement, reaction, pile-in, etc is critical to my strategy, I have a tactical template. I give it to them to use if they don't have their own. At major events, most players have one anyway. If someone starts to cheat by freehanding their model movement to gain extra inches, I ask them to put the models back and measure it carefully. I too follow the rules and expect my opponents to do the same.

El_Jairo wrote:I now run a Archon kitted to kill of IC's in 2 rounds of combat: with an Electrocorrosive Whip, Blast Pistol, SF, CD and Soul Trap. He loves Runepriest, Priests and the likes.

The blast pistol is a waste, he will rarely get to fire it and if he does its likely to just be another wound that doesnt count toward combat res. Electrocorrosive whip sucks. Why half an unkilled model's strength when you could just ID them with a huskblade.
For an archon there are only so many weapon builds:
Venom blade for low save armies,
Agonizer for cheap,
Djin Blade+Blaster if you want to be able to shoot,
Huskblade for the most leathal CC monster

The only reason I can imagine for an electrocorrosive whip is if you know your opponent has a lot of EW models like daemons, and you shoot daemons or use a venom blade in CC.

Cheers for your answers. It helps a lot to get my game a lot more competitive. Certainly since I'm playing a tournament again this Sunday.
I will certainly check out that DE HQ thread.

I think I see the points you make on Shardnet and other. So far the shardnet is working for me but I can't evaluate if it justifies it's points.

On the 12" move: since everybody is allowing it, I'm dropping my point about not gaining 2,5" during transport to get into CC. I just think if you extrapolate this logic your could say you turn a million times and achieve an 48" transportation with a 12" move ;-)

@Exergy: you might have a point on the weapon outload. I tried it more for reasons to do something different. I must say it works some time: halving S is quite a life-saver. But true, for the points of the Blast Pistol I could upgrade it to the Huskblade but that doesn't wound better that the El W. Since Agonisers don't kill IC's in one turn of CC I thought, why not try something else?
The other point is: it typically the BP kills one marine before combat, that is one I don't have to kill any more during CC. And with one marine it makes it's points back .
So basically I don't use the huskblade because it is too expensive.

My only query is; why would you use Dark E ldar in the first place?

El_Jairo wrote:
@Exergy: you might have a point on the weapon outload. I tried it more for reasons to do something different. I must say it works some time: halving S is quite a life-saver. But true, for the points of the Blast Pistol I could upgrade it to the Huskblade but that doesn't wound better that the El W. Since Agonisers don't kill IC's in one turn of CC I thought, why not try something else?
The other point is: it typically the BP kills one marine before combat, that is one I don't have to kill any more during CC. And with one marine it makes it's points back .
So basically I don't use the huskblade because it is too expensive.

As Dash says making your points back is a horrible scale to compare things to. A normal pistol can probably kill a marine yet it costs just 1 point. You dont take things to get their points back, you take things if they can get 10x their points back. A properly kitted archon should expect to be able to mow through marines. A squad with melta guns should be able to kill big tanks that are more expensive than they are. You take 20pts of melta guns on a squad thinking, "Im gonna bag me a landraider!" Adding a blast pistol on an archon makes him 10% more expensive, but it doesnt make him 10% deadlier or any more survivable, most of his deadliness coems from CC. Shooting adds practically nothing.

In order to use the blast pistol you need to position your very expensive archon in a very specific situation where he is right smack in front of a unit you dont think will flee from shooting (if they have combat tactics, NEVER shoot). Its much much better to be more versitile with your archon and be able to fleet to your target and charge. The archon is a CC character, if you want to shoot take a haemi


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even with half strength an enemy IC is still a threat. What if he has a force weapon or really high S to begin with. What if he has a posioned weapon(ignores half strength)

Huskblade also helps you vs Nobs, Paladins, Nids. It was made for the soul trap combo. If you are taking the soul trap you may as well spring for the huskblade. If not then you should stick with the agonizer and no soul trap.

El_Jairo wrote:
On the 12" move: since everybody is allowing it, I'm dropping my point about not gaining 2,5" during transport to get into CC. I just think if you extrapolate this logic your could say you turn a million times and achieve an 48" transportation with a 12" move ;-)

No...you cannot. When you measure movement, you need to do it consistently from one point of the vehicle - because your ultimate movement is measured from starting position to ending position. So I measure from the front of my base. I move 12", and can freely spin the raider around as many times as I want - but I'm still only moving the model 12" forward.


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thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:My only query is; why would you use Dark E ldar in the first place?

Well, the choices fall out like this:

Dark, powerful, dominating, speedy, supercool, lethality contained in being that never age because they sip on the tortured agonies of devoured souls..
OR
Light, weak, fragile, rainbow colored, emotionally sensitive, "my race was destroyed by my own lust," tall-hat wearing lisping weaklings who lose an entire craftworld to a being that the lowliest Dark Eldar can destroy single-handedly.

Given a choice between being a GOD amongst the rest of all the inferior species, and being a weak and rainbow colored object of scorn, you can see that I chose the powerful route.

LOL, nice point there about the rainbow colored pointy hat! ^_^

Good solid tactical advice Dash. And a very interesting read! I have been wondering about starting a DE force for a while now and thou this is slightly off topic I wondered if you had any advice for me regarding what should be in my first 1000pts?
I do have a predilection for getting stuck in, up close and personal.
I also wanted to pick your brain on Mandrakes, as all I have read and heard seems to indicate that they are not all that great. The problem being I really like the mini's and wanted at least a squad in my army!

Re. The music part of things, I always try to listen to specific songs before playing a game. 'Better than you' by Metallica has to be one of my favourites!

Thanks again for posting this thread and for taking the time to share your advice with the rest of us.

Peace.

I think Mandrakes are useless in a competitive army, and in terms of what you should get for your first 1,000 points....well, it depends on the kind of army you want to make - and there are several threads (predominantly in army discussion) where the same question gets asked and answered over and over. Go check 'em out.

Thanks Dash, I'll do that. Good luck in your next game, whatever it might be against!

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I also wanted to pick your brain on Mandrakes, as all I have read and heard seems to indicate that they are not all that great. The problem being I really like the mini's and wanted at least a squad in my army!
D

Count as wracks, so easy....

Just wanted to say thanks dash, a lot of really good information, and quite a bit of it can be translated into other armies.

Exergy wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I also wanted to pick your brain on Mandrakes, as all I have read and heard seems to indicate that they are not all that great. The problem being I really like the mini's and wanted at least a squad in my army!
D

Count as wracks, so easy....

Or put them on hellion skyboard's and use them as beast masters, takes a bit of work, but they can look awesome.

Great general gameplay tips, but I was hoping the lovely Dark Eldar range of models would lend themselves to more varied lists than spamspammityspamspamspam.

withershadow wrote:Great general gameplay tips, but I was hoping the lovely Dark Eldar range of models would lend themselves to more varied lists than spamspammityspamspamspam.

there are a lot of different list options with a few unit choices. Its better than it was when there were only really 3 competitive choices in the whole dex. They cant fix it all at once.

withershadow wrote:Great general gameplay tips, but I was hoping the lovely Dark Eldar range of models would lend themselves to more varied lists than spamspammityspamspamspam.

There are a lot more varied lists than the three types and configurations that I advocate (Wych Cult, Kabal, and WWP). I'm a tournament player - I expect everyone to bring the most devastating army that they have to the field against me, and the Dark Eldar codex is not made out of 25% cheese, 50% epic win, and 25% units to pass over like certain other codexes. From a competitive standpoint, there are 3 serious builds that work, with differing flavors to them. From a non-competitive standpoint, there are a lot more themes available.

If you fall into the latter category, I announced at the beginning of this thread in the OP that this thread wasn't for people like you. If you fall into the former category, you already know and understand what I just said and wouldn't have been hoping for more varied competitive opportunities.

Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...

I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.

If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.

You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...

I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.

If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.

You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.

Am I the only one who realizes that we have a Rules forum for these questions and that this is the Tactics forum? Please take this kind of questions/critique to YMDC.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...

I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.

If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.

You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.

If you move the 12" and then pivot, the point furthest forward on your vehicle is 12" + 1/2 the length of the vehicle.

The vehicle only moves 12", but for purposes of disembarking, you can disembark anywhere within up to 2" of the hull. This includes the 2" from the pivot, which means the guys inside the vehicle have gotten out around 15" from where the vehicle started.

Make sense?

wisdomeyes1:

Literally an entire page of this thread was dedicated to addressing that, and I think that there were even relevant links to threads in YMDC, and quotes from pages of the rulebook. Jumping onto the end of a thread to post something demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of the movement rules, while also showing that you didn't have the courtesy to read the thread before posting....not cool.

I presume that you're not a tournament player - movement and pivoting is not a contentious issue in competitive circles because the rules are explicitly clear on it. If you have further need to discuss the issue, check out YMDC forum, and find one of the threads about pivoting. Or, if reading and research isn't your thing....just make a new thread and someone will link you to one of the discussions about it.

I actually was reading the thread... but I stopped at page 6. for the first 5 pages... no one questioned the pivoting. They called it cheesy, but that is not questioning it... just accepting it with contempt. I will find the topic.

And yes... i am a tournament player thank you very much. i have always allowed people to do this until about a week ago, when the rule was discussed on a different site and very good points were brought up.



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Foo wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...

I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.

If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.

You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.

If you move the 12" and then pivot, the point furthest forward on your vehicle is 12" + 1/2 the length of the vehicle.

The vehicle only moves 12", but for purposes of disembarking, you can disembark anywhere within up to 2" of the hull. This includes the 2" from the pivot, which means the guys inside the vehicle have gotten out around 15" from where the vehicle started.

Make sense?

But this is untrue...

you move and then pivot, which means you are moving past the maximum distance a vehicle can move. Like ALL other models in 40k, you measure before you move. Pivoting, when it is the only thing you do, does not count as moving. You measure, then move and pivot as much as you want as long as you don't move past the distance that you measured before you move.

Again... arguing the ability to do this would be saying that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.

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What does YMDC stand for... people say it all the time but the glossary gives me nothing.

What does YMDC stand for... people say it all the time but the glossary gives me nothing.

You Make Da Call...