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Really good and impressive work, and some interesting numbers. Thanks a ton.

But I have to add that I think the raw numbers here are drastically skewed by calculating everything at range 12". Of course fireknives will do way better than deathrains at 12", because that's their optimum range. Go to 13" or 25", and the fireknife does worse (and worse than the deathrain at 25+), while the deathrain stays the same.

I know it would be a ton of work, and I'm not willing to do it, but I think if it were possible to factor in ranges and survivability due to range--thus getting more shots off and more hits--the different configurations would stack up differently against each other.

I think this analysis is valuable anyway, as long as users bear in mind that the ratings refer to what is essentially your last turn of shooting before the assault arrives.

I agree with yout point, Flavius Infernus; however, I think it's important to also note that we all know that and, at least myself, won't run just straight Bladestorm units. This thread has brought up some great information and I foresee me running a unit of deathrains and maybe 2 units of bladestorms this weekend (I guess I'll have to dust my army off, especially considering the FAQ update..)

The FAQ update really didn't do much for Tau.

It made seekers and SMS slightly better... and if you don't detach drones from your devilfish they won't give up an extra KP. Not much besides that.

Yeah but it's been the better part of a year since I trotted them out and I've been winning too often of late with my ultra-smurfs so I need to be taken down a peg.

Yeah.. obviously some suits perform worse at ranges outside 12".

Agnosto if you check out the URL I posted, I put up the 2500p lists I updated.. I went 1/1/1 with Bladestorms, Fireknives and Deathrains. I guess we'll see how that goes.


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The Bringer wrote:There are 2 more things I find shocking about this:

-Bladestorms are better than fireknives at everything.
-Team leaders with targeting arrays is a good option.

Right. Exactly. The only thing Fireknives can do better is support Deathrains in meter maid'ing the parking lot armies, and they can kill 4+ save units marginally better than Bladestorms. So like... other Fire Warriors? If Fire Warriors are the troops choice that's giving you headaches, you have other problems.

TEAM LEADERS WITH TARGETING ARRAYS... That absolutely blew my mind. Blew. My. Mind. That is like. Gah. How many times have I said to people "Eh.. you're spending a lot of points doing that...". Countless times. Countless. Meanwhile.. I mean duh it's more effective.. but it's MORE EFFICIENT.

You know what else that means? It means if they bumped the price of Targeting Arrays from 10 points, to 15 points but made them Hard Wired... it would be not only viable, but SUPERIOR.

Insanity.




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Flavius Infernus wrote:Really good and impressive work, and some interesting numbers. Thanks a ton.

But I have to add that I think the raw numbers here are drastically skewed by calculating everything at range 12". Of course fireknives will do way better than deathrains at 12", because that's their optimum range. Go to 13" or 25", and the fireknife does worse (and worse than the deathrain at 25+), while the deathrain stays the same.

I know it would be a ton of work, and I'm not willing to do it, but I think if it were possible to factor in ranges and survivability due to range--thus getting more shots off and more hits--the different configurations would stack up differently against each other.

I think this analysis is valuable anyway, as long as users bear in mind that the ratings refer to what is essentially your last turn of shooting before the assault arrives.

I'm fairly convinced that the Bladestorm will outperform the Deathrain vs. MEQ's and TEQ's and DEFINITELY vs TEQ /w SS @ 18". The Fireknife @ 18"? No contest, Bladestorm again, for sure. I'll run the numbers tonight after work.

cottonjaw wrote: I'm fairly convinced that the Bladestorm will outperform the Deathrain vs. MEQ's and TEQ's and DEFINITELY vs TEQ /w SS @ 18". The Fireknife @ 18"? No contest, Bladestorm again, for sure. I'll run the numbers tonight after work.

At 18" sure. That still drastically favors the short-range suits.

But the real test would be compare the two over the course of 3-4 turns starting at range 42" with the target closing 9.5" per turn (average infantry running speed). In that comparison, the deathrain begins to outperform the bladestorm against MEQ in the third turn of shooting, and comes close vs. TEQ in about the fourth turn.

The upgrade to team leader with Targeting array is only effective on layouts that pump out more shots however.

You calculated
PPK for Firestorms for GEQ is - 24.03
PPK for TL w/ TA Firestorm is - 23.38

However, a crisis suit that doesn't shoot that much... let's say, a death-rain
Normal - 31.84
W/ TA - 35.81

So it really depends on how many shots you are pumping out for it to be a worthwhile upgrade.

True true. But as it transpires, the high volume of fire suits, are the best! It's a win-win!

But yeah... thats why my deathrains are still TL MP + Flamer.

This makes for very interesting reading!

Might get my Tau off the shelve again (well, some are being painted and for the last 8 games I've used Sisters) as they were my first army and hold a spesshul place in my heart...

I got so hooked on running T/L MP + TA just for insanely accurate anti-transport/destroyer firepower but I know that's overkill. Majorly. Last few games I ran Fireknifes and they did very well, but that Bladestorm. Wowzers! I might give that a bloody go!

Yeah the Deathrain addiction is common. People think "Well space marine autocannons are great.. so.."

But the truth is, we have to kill space marines! And missile pods just aren't great at that.

Yup, it is easy to get sucked into using one kind of suit throughout your Elite slots but I'd love to hear of a Deathrain/Fireknife/Bladestorm combo.

The Bladestorm seems a good unit to Deepstrike (if you're brave) or to try and get up close and personal. The 18" range has always put me off using BC on suits and normally left them to either Stealths or DF.

Happy memories of when Stealths were so easy to get out of LOS and you could just JSJ with silly amounts of firepower.

Would be great if you could compare them at different ranges, from 12" upward until moving will no longer get you in range with any weapon you can possibly carry.

The Helios Suit vs Fireknife suit isn't wholly accurate due to the range restriction of 12". My Fireknives rarely stray out of 24" range because the extra plasma shot will usually get me killed due to the range, so for me, the fireknife>the helios in all situations which is contrary to statistics.

Avatar 720 wrote:Would be great if you could compare them at different ranges, from 12" upward until moving will no longer get you in range with any weapon you can possibly carry.

The Helios Suit vs Fireknife suit isn't wholly accurate due to the range restriction of 12". My Fireknives rarely stray out of 24" range because the extra plasma shot will usually get me killed due to the range, so for me, the fireknife>the helios in all situations which is contrary to statistics.

Working on ''Part V:18" and Beyond'' tonight.


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Cottonjaw wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Would be great if you could compare them at different ranges, from 12" upward until moving will no longer get you in range with any weapon you can possibly carry.

The Helios Suit vs Fireknife suit isn't wholly accurate due to the range restriction of 12". My Fireknives rarely stray out of 24" range because the extra plasma shot will usually get me killed due to the range, so for me, the fireknife>the helios in all situations which is contrary to statistics.

Working on ''Part V:18" and Beyond'' tonight.

Ooooor I'll just knock it out during my lunch break...

Part V is up. Plain and simple really. Hiding way in the back with Deathrains and shooting is just not an effective way to deal with troops. 18" range is safe enough, with a 6" hop straight back you are only vulnerable to jump troops that roll a 6 for their run... I.E. not that vulnerable at all.

Overall it appears the Fireknife is still the "jack of all trades, master of none", putting up a fight against all foes, but not a specific threat against anything.

So, a squad of Firesknives would be ideal no matter what, then a seperate squad of Firestorms or Helios depending on what you fight.

Oh, and Targeting Arrays are epic

The Bringer wrote:The upgrade to team leader with Targeting array is only effective on layouts that pump out more shots however.

You calculated
PPK for Firestorms for GEQ is - 24.03
PPK for TL w/ TA Firestorm is - 23.38

However, a crisis suit that doesn't shoot that much... let's say, a death-rain
Normal - 31.84
W/ TA - 35.81

So it really depends on how many shots you are pumping out for it to be a worthwhile upgrade.

The PPK for Deathrain-FL is wrong: it should be 37.6. So Targeting Array variant is always more cost effective, if you disregard possibility of flaming the Guardsmen.

I ran some numbers myself long time ago, and came to same conclusion: Team Leaders are more points-efficient. This is because the cost of TA+TL is fixed at 15 points, but the effectiveness increases by 1/3. For suits which have base cost over 45 points, it is worth paying 15 points from increased effectiveness (unless you consider model number on the table...but then it gets fuzzy). Since nearly all suit configurations cost 50 or more points, Team Leader is worth it.

I ALWAYS take Team leaders: sometimes I take them as Monats. It never ceases to puzzle me why people take teams of three plain, identical Fireknives: not only you lose effectiveness, but you also have no chance to play wound allocation game.

Btw, another thing which the tables show is that Burning Eye pretty much sucks. It has no range and narrow usefulness. It is probably the most worthless of common suit configurations. One suit which has escaped scrutiny is Firesurge (Missile-Fusion Blaster). Lots of people say that they suck, but I sometimes take them as Team Leaders for one or two Fireknives. It's always nice to have BS4 melta as a backup, and S8 is quite useful at instant-killing various nasty stuff.

Aaahk!!

You're right. There is a tiny flaw in the chart :O

Backfire wrote:

The Bringer wrote:The upgrade to team leader with Targeting array is only effective on layouts that pump out more shots however.

You calculated
PPK for Firestorms for GEQ is - 24.03
PPK for TL w/ TA Firestorm is - 23.38

However, a crisis suit that doesn't shoot that much... let's say, a death-rain
Normal - 31.84
W/ TA - 35.81

So it really depends on how many shots you are pumping out for it to be a worthwhile upgrade.

The PPK for Deathrain-FL is wrong: it should be 37.6. So Targeting Array variant is always more cost effective, if you disregard possibility of flaming the Guardsmen.

I ran some numbers myself long time ago, and came to same conclusion: Team Leaders are more points-efficient. This is because the cost of TA+TL is fixed at 15 points, but the effectiveness increases by 1/3. For suits which have base cost over 45 points, it is worth paying 15 points from increased effectiveness (unless you consider model number on the table...but then it gets fuzzy). Since nearly all suit configurations cost 50 or more points, Team Leader is worth it.

I ALWAYS take Team leaders: sometimes I take them as Monats. It never ceases to puzzle me why people take teams of three plain, identical Fireknives: not only you lose effectiveness, but you also have no chance to play wound allocation game.

Btw, another thing which the tables show is that Burning Eye pretty much sucks. It has no range and narrow usefulness. It is probably the most worthless of common suit configurations. One suit which has escaped scrutiny is Firesurge (Missile-Fusion Blaster). Lots of people say that they suck, but I sometimes take them as Team Leaders for one or two Fireknives. It's always nice to have BS4 melta as a backup, and S8 is quite useful at instant-killing various nasty stuff.

The thing is... Team Leader + TA isn't very effective on Deathrains... and I can't imagine a competitive list that didn't include at least one FOC slot occupied by Deathrains. That being said, you've got basically two slots that are going to want Team Leader + TA upgrades. Thats 30 points. What the heck are you going to buy with 30 points? Some Kroot? Half a piranha? Fire...*gag* Warriors? If it's not giving you enough points to buy another XV8 or XV88, it's probably not worth it. The "model count" arguement basically boils down to "Suit Count" for Tau lists. If you can strip a few upgrades or a shield drone or two in order to field another suit... go for it. Otherwise... it's probably not worth it.

Burning Eye is actually the configuration that brought me to wanting to do this. It. Sucks. And I needed to prove that it sucks. It's use is basically exclusively limited to killing plain old regular tactical squad marines.


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The Bringer wrote:Aaahk!!

You're right. There is a tiny flaw in the chart :O

AHHHHHH!!

I'm at work. I don't have the original excel document, so I can't fix it!

AHHHHHH I'm not going to be able to fix it until tommorrow!

This is giving me an OCD heart attack. Breath Chris. Breath. It's just one number. It's not a big deal.

AHHHH!


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I feel so.... mathematically insecure.


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Flavius Infernus wrote:

cottonjaw wrote: I'm fairly convinced that the Bladestorm will outperform the Deathrain vs. MEQ's and TEQ's and DEFINITELY vs TEQ /w SS @ 18". The Fireknife @ 18"? No contest, Bladestorm again, for sure. I'll run the numbers tonight after work.

At 18" sure. That still drastically favors the short-range suits.

But the real test would be compare the two over the course of 3-4 turns starting at range 42" with the target closing 9.5" per turn (average infantry running speed). In that comparison, the deathrain begins to outperform the bladestorm against MEQ in the third turn of shooting, and comes close vs. TEQ in about the fourth turn.

Ehh.... that's more getting into playstyle/opinion IMO. Trying to keep this as objective as possible. I generally can get 2-3 turns @ 18". It's all about putting intervening cover between you and your would be assaulters, smart use of LOS blockers etc. etc. If you prefer a "play it safe" style, I'm sure it's possible to get more rounds of firing out of a Deathrain squad, but honestly, I just don't find them potent enough to commit to that style of play. Think of AP2 like our "power weapons". If someone took a really survivable assault army with just basic troops and no power weapons... people would shoot it down, and with good reason. It wouldn't have any potency.

It also has a lot to do with strategy. I haven't played with Bladestorms yet, but generally, I would have my commander + fireknives + helios squad all rapidfire into the most dangerous squad. Lather, rinse, repeat. You don't have to worry about how close your would-be assaulters are, if they are dusted. Pretty adherent to Mont'Ka, as it turns out.

But if you're using some other strategy, and splitting your fire, so you need 3 or more turns of shooting to take out a single squad and it's working for you by all means, go for it! I'm not putting these numbers up here to say that a specific suit is THE way to go for every situation, or to debunk someones way of waging war.. I'm putting these numbers up here to assist in decision making when you're going to shoot at a specific target. (I.E. :Is it worth shooting these terminators with Deathrains.. just because the Terminators are close by? Or should I shoot the henchmen for greater effect?)

Cottonjaw wrote:
The thing is... Team Leader + TA isn't very effective on Deathrains... and I can't imagine a competitive list that didn't include at least one FOC slot occupied by Deathrains. That being said, you've got basically two slots that are going to want Team Leader + TA upgrades. Thats 30 points. What the heck are you going to buy with 30 points? Some Kroot? Half a piranha? Fire...*gag* Warriors? If it's not giving you enough points to buy another XV8 or XV88, it's probably not worth it. The "model count" arguement basically boils down to "Suit Count" for Tau lists. If you can strip a few upgrades or a shield drone or two in order to field another suit... go for it. Otherwise... it's probably not worth it.

Of course there is little point using Deathrains as Team leaders. My favourite combo is Fireknife Team Leader + two Deathrains with Targeting arrays. That's loads of S7 dakka and BS4 Plasma is always handy. You can take some Drones if you want, or do some Wound allocation.

I'm a big fan of Deathrain, but one thing which Fireknife and Helios have going for them is Markerlight support. Deathrain is almost independent of Markerlights, which is nice on low points games...but with just two Markerlight hits you can improve your Fireknife team to BS5...oh la la. That makes a big difference, whereas two Markerlight hits do relatively little for Deathrains, unless it's a vehicle in cover.

I know its not part of any basic suit line up but could you add in the CIB as far as effectiveness goes? From what I hear it gets a lot of flak being 3,4. It seems more worth while to take PR for them based on rage, ap, and strength

Thanks for this! Good info!

Good work. The only problem is the assumption that all shots are taken from 12 inches. If that is the case, then your suits are probably dead agaisnt all the current power armies.

I still say you should analyze stealth suits in your main article with the 2 gun drones. Stealth suits are overlooked quite unfairly, and when shooting at MEQ in cover the stealth suits outperform everything else.

Also, your article should have a section about markerlights. Markerlights make TA and twinliked weapons much less efficient compared to simply more shots. You dont have to go crazy, I think just 1 column where the suits count as BS5 would be fine, to show the PPK in that circumstance, which also lets people see if the costs of markerlights are worth it.

For example, you rightly point out that the sarge upgrade with TA is worth it most of the time... BUT not when you have markerlights. This distinction is very important when your goal is math-hammer with tactical analysis, as you cant ignore the force-multiplying effects of things like markerlights in any serious tactical analysis.

DevianID wrote:I still say you should analyze stealth suits in your main article with the 2 gun drones. Stealth suits are overlooked quite unfairly, and when shooting at MEQ in cover the stealth suits outperform everything else.

Also, your article should have a section about markerlights. Markerlights make TA and twinliked weapons much less efficient compared to simply more shots. You dont have to go crazy, I think just 1 column where the suits count as BS5 would be fine, to show the PPK in that circumstance, which also lets people see if the costs of markerlights are worth it.

For example, you rightly point out that the sarge upgrade with TA is worth it most of the time... BUT not when you have markerlights. This distinction is very important when your goal is math-hammer with tactical analysis, as you cant ignore the force-multiplying effects of things like markerlights in any serious tactical analysis.

Not a bad plan. I might look into that.

Also, the CIB is discussed briefly as a termie killer at one point.

I'm willing to take a look at stealth suits as well. Might change the article name to "Tau Math Hammer" instead of "Crisis Suit" since I've already included Broadsides, at one point.

I've been wanting to get into anti-tank #'s as well, since that's always fun.

You have to remember that those fireknife suits can engage an enemy armor as well as infantry at a very good range. I have considered the use of the Helios configuration, but I keep running into that low 12" range. Against any kind of mobile infantry (fleet units, jump packs, or bikes), you will only live to fire once. With the deathrain and fireknife configs, you can pull back and fight at a safer distance if need be. Besides, If I want S5, I have firewarriors and devilfish. Suits are (at least in my lists) there to kill light vehicles and termies (or FNP units that over saturation of S5 can't handle).

bdix wrote:Good work. The only problem is the assumption that all shots are taken from 12 inches. If that is the case, then your suits are probably dead agaisnt all the current power armies.

That's a bit of a pessimistic outlook to be honest. Yeah...ok...we don't have a great army and every battle is tough for us. However I am probably not alone in saying that Tau players are probably the most tactical out there at the moment (Disagree? Yeah some of you will but I stand by that..) and can turn a battle from going bad to good. In games where the dice are against you then your loss seems all that much painful but I'm still happy with my Tau bar a few things.

Let's face it - even with the best plans people will close in on suits or take them out with dedicated AT weaponry (leaving your H-Heads and DF alone!!!) to ID them. Saying they will all be dead by 12" is stupid though. I've had many a game with suits left and often use 12" towards the end of a game to mop up leftover units. In fact that's my best tactic - start long with MP and close in on units that have been depleted to gain the 2 MP and 2 PR shots. Filling all your suits out in one way is bad though as you really restrict what they do. After reading this thread and I am tempted to use a team of 3 with 2 Deathrains and a Fireknife and then a squad of Bladestorms.

You've done a lot of hard work there. How did you calculate the probabilities -- I mean, what equation did you use?

Regarding Feel Know Pain.
The overall effect of FNP is to halve the number of wounds suffered. However, weapons that cause Instant Death or having AP1 or 2 cannot be saved by FNP.

Fireknife and Deathrain were classic suits in 3rd edition. Deathrain in particular was needed to stop the "Rhino Rush". Now that IoM armies have lots of cheap vehicles again, it's not surprising that Deathrain should make a comeback.

The argument against Bladestorm is that the rest of the army has plenty of S5 AP5 weapons already.

Range should not be ignored. Longer range weapons obviously allow you to engage from a safe distance. They also bring a wider selection of targets within reach each turn. If you have a Missile Pod, you will almost never lack for a potential target.

Kilkrazy wrote:The argument against Bladestorm is that the rest of the army has plenty of S5 AP5 weapons already.

That's if you run Firewarriors in your list. Most Tau players I've seen on here always take the bare minimum of them, and stick to a mechanized army.

Range is by no means being ignored. Throughout the guide I state that longer range suits will get to engage first, that these numbers only refer to a single round of shooting, and that, as always, ymmv. I simply wanted to illustrate a "best case scenario" for each suit. If you want to know how effective a Bladestorm is @ 30"... go ahead and roll zero dice to hit.. and then... zero dice to wound.. and then... roll zero saves.. and... yeah.

The suit by suit analysis is provided for people who aren't very good with numbers/younger people. The numbers are the objective/fact portion of the guide and I emplore you to please take what you will from it, and leave what you won't.

On the same token, I think the numbers show that "shooting at terminators with deathrains" could replace the household phrase "it's like screaming at a wall".

The goal here was to help provide information on target priority and knowing what your actual "soft targets" were, with a particular loadout. Everyone knows shooting Guardsmen with anything is going to kill some guardsmen. But is what suit you are choosing to engage an effective use of points you've spent already? That's the point.

Could you math hammer the chances of each suit load getting pen/glance against AV ranges?

DevianID wrote:One thing I want to add is this... cover!

Say your burning eye, the best at MEQ PPK at 44, shoots at marines in cover. That jacks up their PPK to 88. Meanwhile, the missilepod version is at 108. So, not such a big difference anymore--but the missiles have that 108 effectiveness at 36 inches compared to the burning eye's 12 inches.

Burning Eye and Helios, being ap2 or greater, will see the most use versus FNP models out of cover, and models with a 2+ armor save and no invuln like sang guard (who will also most likely have FNP too), and since units like sang guard are assault oriented, you better hope you kill them with your shooting or your dead.

Also, something to consider is stealth suits--the younger brother of the crisis suit I suppose. If you run the numbers on stealth suits with drone controllers (gun drones) you should find that they are some of the most efficient shooters.

Points: 50 (Stealth Suit and 2 Gun Drones)
Dead GEQ = 1.25 + .93 = 23 PPK
Dead MEQ = .333 +.25 = 86 PPK
Dead TEQ = ½meq = 171 PPK
Dead TEQSS = TEQ = 171 PPK

So on first glance they dont seem the best... BUT they are 100% effective at 18 inches instead of 12, get stealth fields, the drone attacks cause pinning, and are just as good at killing MEQ in cover as they are in the open. When compared to the 'better' suit options shooting at units in cover, these guys kick major butt since half their wounds wont go away. You also get 30 shots for 300 points in a single unit, with 18 wounds. Granted they stink at dealing with 2+ FNP units, but most things do.

This unit also gets perhaps the largest boost from markerlights, as its pretty much the most shots in a single unit your gonna get, doesnt already pay for extra BS, and can make use of the pinning bonus as well.

I like firestorm suits, but they compete with stealth suits- 150 points of firestorm vs 150pts of stealths....its a tough call, but I'd rather have stealth suits for the points. They have more advantages for the same shots(although they have missle pods for transport duty destruction, the advantages of stealth suits outweights that).