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Let me try and get some clarification here. Basically the PR and BC with MT is the most effective for killing enemies, when it is at range. in other words when all the suits are at range it is the most deadly period. now from what I hear people argue that they prefer fire knife b/c it has distance plus the chance it can kill vehicles and troops, etc. Then going to the opposite extreme you have death rain, better at taking out vehicles than fire knife. But as Cottenjaw stated the MP is not very effective against Meqs, etc. Could these, excluding shasvre and special war gear be said to be the top 3 choices for battle suit load out, with of course all of them at range for their respective weapons, meq killer (Blade Storm, vehicle killer (Death Rain), and then the middle ground (Fire Knife) that is not as good as the other two at either job, but could perform both tasks. does this seem to be on the right track? if so does this mean that their is no purpose to taking any other combo for you non shasvre crisis suits?

Actually, it isn't quite like that.

As he hasn't really mathhammered vehicles yet, I don't want to discuss the vehicle destroying load-outs.

The best GEQ killer is the Firestorm. The best all-around is the blade-storm. (PR/BC) - which is actually superior to the fire-knife in all areas. (Though the Fireknife has more ability against vehicles than the blade-storm, just not that much more).

There is purpose to other combos. TL Flamer suits, for example, are risky, but they can flay horde armies like no other suits, and at a cheap points-level... each weapon has strength in which other weapons can't out-do them, and so there is no ultimate loud-outs.

I will still take:
Fire-knife
Blade-storm
Fire-storm
Death-rain
Helios

And such load-outs despite some being better at averages than others... because they all will out-do each-other at some point...

The Bringer wrote:Actually, it isn't quite like that.

As he hasn't really mathhammered vehicles yet, I don't want to discuss the vehicle destroying load-outs.

The best GEQ killer is the Firestorm. The best all-around is the blade-storm. (PR/BC) - which is actually superior to the fire-knife in all areas. (Though the Fireknife has more ability against vehicles than the blade-storm, just not that much more).

There is purpose to other combos. TL Flamer suits, for example, are risky, but they can flay horde armies like no other suits, and at a cheap points-level... each weapon has strength in which other weapons can't out-do them, and so there is no ultimate loud-outs.

I will still take:
Fire-knife
Blade-storm
Fire-storm
Death-rain
Helios

And such load-outs despite some being better at averages than others... because they all will out-do each-other at some point...

This.

I ran bladestorms tonight. They are very decent at killing MEQ's and TEQ's. Fireknives still have their place though. I played two games with 1/1/1 bladestorm/fireknife/deathrain and that seems to be the idea loadout. The deathrains pew pew transports. The bladestorm fight infantry. The fireknife supports whatever area you are having trouble in.

Seems good. Full batrep later. Too much booze. Sleep now.

Alright sweet thanks for clarifying!

mega_bassist wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The argument against Bladestorm is that the rest of the army has plenty of S5 AP5 weapons already.

That's if you run Firewarriors in your list. Most Tau players I've seen on here always take the bare minimum of them, and stick to a mechanized army.

The basic Devilfish has five S5 AP5 shots and can be upgraded. The basic Hammerhead has six, plus the pieplate shot. The basic Broadside has four. The only core unit that doesn't have S5 AP5 is Kroot.

A typical medium size Tau army is probably going to have two Devilfish, a Hammerhead, and a couple of Broadsides. That's 24 S5 AP5 shots.

I'm not saying the Bladestorm is pointless, just that people should look at any unit within the context of the rest of the army.

Kilkrazy wrote:

mega_bassist wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The argument against Bladestorm is that the rest of the army has plenty of S5 AP5 weapons already.

That's if you run Firewarriors in your list. Most Tau players I've seen on here always take the bare minimum of them, and stick to a mechanized army.

The basic Devilfish has five S5 AP5 shots and can be upgraded. The basic Hammerhead has six, plus the pieplate shot. The basic Broadside has four. The only core unit that doesn't have S5 AP5 is Kroot.

A typical medium size Tau army is probably going to have two Devilfish, a Hammerhead, and a couple of Broadsides. That's 24 S5 AP5 shots.

I'm not saying the Bladestorm is pointless, just that people should look at any unit within the context of the rest of the army.

All of those units are forced to take S5 shots. Broadsides will rarely fire SMS, Hammerheads it's the cheapest way to field a sub-munition capable railgun... again those burst cannons will generally be out of range and Devilfish.. well.. that's all it's got.

While I do agree with you, we do have a lot of STR5.. we also have a lot of high stregnth weapons to take out high toughness/armor value. What we lack, is weapons with solid AP. We have two that can be fit on Crisis suits. One of those two is the Fusion Blaster, whos range kind of limits it's effectiveness. The Plasma Rifle is an obvious choice... but what to pair it with? A missile pod is less effective for pure infantry pew pew... so... The Bladestorm fills right in. By all means, don't go hacking up your Fireknives yet, however.

I have played three games since writing this tactica... and it seems like, for me at least, 1/1/1 with Bladestorms + Fireknives + Deathrains is the most effective. Depending on points level, the Bladestorms should get a TA'd team leader first, then the Fireknives... never the Deathrains... if you really have that many spare points, drop their flamers for TA's.

Kilkrazy wrote:

mega_bassist wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The argument against Bladestorm is that the rest of the army has plenty of S5 AP5 weapons already.

That's if you run Firewarriors in your list. Most Tau players I've seen on here always take the bare minimum of them, and stick to a mechanized army.

The basic Devilfish has five S5 AP5 shots and can be upgraded. The basic Hammerhead has six, plus the pieplate shot. The basic Broadside has four. The only core unit that doesn't have S5 AP5 is Kroot.

A typical medium size Tau army is probably going to have two Devilfish, a Hammerhead, and a couple of Broadsides. That's 24 S5 AP5 shots.

I'm not saying the Bladestorm is pointless, just that people should look at any unit within the context of the rest of the army.

Herp Derp, you're right. I didn't think of the Gun Drones/Burst Cannons from Devilfish/Hammerheads

I actually play a list that I feel covers all the bases @ 2000:

HQ:
Shas'el Centurion (CIB + PR + TA + HWMT + DC w/ 2 SD)
XV8 Bodyguard Fireknives x2 (PR + MP + TA + HWMT)

Elites:

XV8 Crisis Team Leader Firestorm (BC + MP + TA + HWMT)
XV8 Crisis Suit Firestorm x2 (BC + MP + HWMT)

XV8 Crisis Suit Deathrain x3 (TWMP + Flamer + TA)

XV25 Stealth Suit Team x5

Troops:

Firewarrior Team Leader
Firewarrior x11

Firewarrior x6

Firewarrior x6

Fast Attack:

Pathfinder x5
Devilfish (DP + MT)

Pathfinder x5
Devilfish (DP + MT)

Gun Drone x8

Heavy Support:

Broadside Team Leader (ASS + TL + DC w/ SD x2)
Broadside Suit x2 (ASS)

Hammerhead (Dual BC + DP + MT + TL)

Hammerhead (Dual BC + DP + MT + TL)

With the number of S5 shots I throw out between the large squad of (largely static) Firewarriors supporting the Crisis suits and Broadsides along with the other Crisis suits with more S5 shots and the random Devilfish and Gun Drone fire to cause a few wounds and penning, I generally can cause enough saves against MEQs for them to fail (of course, I have seen a single Librarian save 12 times before ). Having the Hammerheads along with a TL Broadside team allows me to spread the S10 AP1 goodness around the field. Deathrains continue to do what they do best, and the Centurion with Fireknife Bodyguard team usually gets the job done against TEQs (I just have to keep them alive which is hard sometimes).

I need more games under my belt with this build but so far, I think the Firestorm is an excellect suit, especially when I go against GEQs.

Agreed. Firestorm is an excellent GEQ killer, but it lacks the potency to deal with heavilly armored infantry, which are a majority in todays gaming meta.

I'm going to get back into this.. I've been distracted by building Chaos Daemons.

Remember.. AP2/1 are the power weapons of shooty armies!

its a shame they cant take many of them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i mean look at tau, the most shooty army in the game, even then you can only take a handful of "power weapon shooty" units, wheras a space wolf army can have every single model equipped with power weapons

Yeah, the Tau really lack a 'combi-melta' 5 point option that the SW have. Imagine if you could have a cheap 1 use combimelta on your suits, in addition to everything else, for 5 points. That one change would greatly alter the Tau's abilities.

it would also make them so overpowered its not funny

Using a melta gun on a suit usually means death for that suit in the opponents following turn, even with jet packs. To get melta they'd need to be w/in 6" and with the jump they would end their turn less than 12" away from the enemy unit that was riding in said vehicle.

who said anything was riding in it?
fantastic way to kill predators vindicatorsl eman russes hellhounds basilisks other artillery fire prisims falcon grav tanks you name it it kills it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and with the capability to deep strike a squad of melta's? as additional shooting? nuts

Bear in mind that deep striking is not only imprecise, but deep striking into melta-range poses a large mishap threat; there's a good chance that your model might be destroyed before it even does anything, or placed out of the way.

I also fail to see how Fusion Crisis deep-striking is any different from Termicide, DSing Obliterators or landing an MM drop-pod behind a tank, or is it just overpowered when the Tau (a currently hamstrung codex) do it?

deepstrike imprescise? tell that to my frequent tau opponents rolls, hits every single time

couple that with the ability to fire multiple melta weapons at different targets, then you get one nasty unit, have a squad of thos enad it quickly becomes rediculose

Tyranic Marta wrote:deepstrike imprescise? tell that to my frequent tau opponents rolls, hits every single time

couple that with the ability to fire multiple melta weapons at different targets, then you get one nasty unit, have a squad of thos enad it quickly becomes rediculose

OT: Could you please grab a dictionary at some point? An error here or there is fine, but 'imprecise' and 'ridiculous' are easy enough to spell; it just makes Dakka look a bit better

Back on topic; yes, deep striking is imprecise. Your opponents may hit a lot, but it's only a 2/6 chance, the other 4/6 are scatters of anywhere from 2" to 12". Even a scatter of 2"-4" could mean the difference between in melta range and out of melta range, with anything over about 8" meaning you're usually out of range altogether. That's if you're even on the board before Turn 4/5.

A crisis team also pays for those melta hits; a unit of 3 suits with TL fusion blasters and target locks is 144pts and doesn't have the luxury of an invulnerable save or 2+ armour save that terminators get, or the drop-pods that loyalist SM get.

It's no different than what other armies already have.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Tyranic Marta wrote:deepstrike imprescise? tell that to my frequent tau opponents rolls, hits every single time

couple that with the ability to fire multiple melta weapons at different targets, then you get one nasty unit, have a squad of thos enad it quickly becomes rediculose

OT: Could you please grab a dictionary at some point? An error here or there is fine, but 'imprecise' and 'ridiculous' are easy enough to spell; it just makes Dakka look a bit better

Back on topic; yes, deep striking is imprecise. Your opponents may hit a lot, but it's only a 2/6 chance, the other 4/6 are scatters of anywhere from 2" to 12". Even a scatter of 2"-4" could mean the difference between in melta range and out of melta range, with anything over about 8" meaning you're usually out of range altogether. That's if you're even on the board before Turn 4/5.

A crisis team also pays for those melta hits; a unit of 3 suits with TL fusion blasters and target locks is 144pts and doesn't have the luxury of an invulnerable save or 2+ armour save that terminators get, or the drop-pods that loyalist SM get.

It's no different than what other armies already have.

QFT

Your average scatter dice roll will scatter 7 inches, 2/3rds of the time. That's pretty inacurrate when we're talking about a gun, that has an av14 pen range of 6". Especially with the ability to field rail guns. Sunforge = Fail configuration

it still comes down to the fact that most armies where this suit choice is applicable are armies where tanks are going to be almost everywhere anyway, this means that even if you miss your deepstrike, unless you land on terrain there is a good chance that your shots are going to be in melta range of SOMETHING

Sorry about my previous post in terms of spelling etc, i was typing quickly and hurridly before i had to go somewhere, usually my posts are pretty good, sos for the inconvenience, oh and before anyone pulls me up on punctuation, i fail at that anyway so give it a rest lol

Helios setups wreck around where I play, but this list has opened my eyes to all kinds of new info. Thanks.

Nice summary. I've been arguing for a long time that Fire Knife is more versatile and deadly compared to Death Rain. Nice chart.

Very interesting read. The bladstorm is something I'll have to consider.

Question -- any chance of a discussion on the Sun Fire (HW MT, MP, PG, FB)? While it can only be taken by Team Leaders / Bodyguard / HQ, it always has the correct weapons for any situation, which will help in efficiency in most games. At least, thats how I think it should work...

The new FAQ specifically states that the multitracker allows you to fire two weapons at once, so you would never be able to fire all three.

Cottonjaw wrote:The new FAQ specifically states that the multitracker allows you to fire two weapons at once, so you would never be able to fire all three.

Thats true, but I've never tried to fire all 3 at once. I pick the two that are most relevant at the time. Turn 1 and maybe 2 I run them like they are fire knives. Turn 3 they become Helios if I need to light up a terminator squad, for example. At the end of the game, if they are still alive, they become fire knives again because I'm likely having to shoot across the board.

In other words, I pay a 12 point premium to be able to run the optimal suit configuration based on the situation. Your data, though, makes me wonder if I should run them as Plasma, Bust Cannon, Missile Pod config -- it saves a few points and may be more effective overall.

I run a typical squad like this:
Sun forge team leader w/ bonding
1x Fireknife
1x Helios

I have 3 plasma, 2 missile pods, and 2 fusion guns in the squad which gives me solid all around firepower and I can use wound allocation to my advantage.

If I were to run the numbers against all types of enemies (GEQ, MEQ, TEQ) would the extra points I pay for this config give me a better all around efficiency, or am I wasting points. Another question is, am I better off replacing the Fusion Blasters with Burst Cannons to save a few points and does my effectiveness increase overall?

To answer my own questions, I spent a LOT of quality time with excel. I duplicated all of the data from the begining of this thread, as well as generated a bunch of extra.

To calculate what configs are most efficient, i average the suites performance at killing GEQ, Vet EQ, MEQ, TEQ, and TEQ w/ SS in points per kill.

Observations of note:
Stealth Suites weigh in at a very, very reasonable 47.4 points per kill. Of course, they have issues punching through armor saves, but its a good bench mark.

Pretty much the worst config you can build to kill infantry in general is the Firesurge (MP+FB) or Twin Fusion suit.

The most efficient build you can make is Twin Burst Cannon w/ Targeting Array at 41.7 Points per kill.

The most efficient firestorm team lead config isn't adding a Targeting Array, but instead Twin linking the Burst Cannon with the missile pod, at an average of 48.8 points per kill (average). That makes the firestorm team lead the 3rd most efficient config you can build per point. Its still terrible at killing TEQs though.

Twin linking the burst cannon on the Bladestorm is essentially the same average effectiveness for fewer points than a TA. Note that this config gains effectiveness against GEQs at the expense of effectiveness against MEQ and TEQ.

The sun fire config (PG, FB, MP) isn't very efficient as a Team Lead or Vre, though it picks up efficiency as you increase BS (thus an El or O is an OK config). It makes up for poor efficiency with good all around numbers on kills though.

The unnamed config (lets call it a fire blade) of (PG, MP, BC) has pretty much the higest kill rate of any of the configs being outstanding at killing GEQs, while also having long range firepower and the abiility to still crack MEQs and TEQs. However, its efficiency is middle of the pack running around 55 points per kill.

If you want to mix suites to maximise wound allocation, it looks like combinations of the Fire Blade Team Leader with PG, MP, & BC, mixed with a Bladestorm and a Fire Knife is about the best all around bet. If you're really, really wanting to kill terminators & MEQs, a Sun Fire + Helios, + Fire Knife is a good combination.

Anyone have any tips on how to calculate the Cyclic Ion Blaster? I can't tell if its better or worse than a Burst Cannon. My guess is the CIB is better, but I can't prove it and I'm not quite sure how to calculate it in excel...

Thanks for sharing this info, it's really helpful.
And looks like I have to try bladestorm.
Any idea should I take CIB for my commander (with fireknife)?
Looks like im using fireknife/deathrain/bladestorm 1/1/1 too.

-unforgiven-

the unforgiven wrote:Thanks for sharing this info, it's really helpful.
And looks like I have to try bladestorm.
Any idea should I take CIB for my commander (with fireknife)?
Looks like im using fireknife/deathrain/bladestorm 1/1/1 too.

-unforgiven-

CIB is only marginally better than a Burst Cannon and fills the same role/range at a much higher cost. If you like the chance to roll a 6-fest and melt some faces, then go for it. For pure competetiveness (lol @ tau competetiveness)...go PR/BC.

Endgame wrote:Anyone have any tips on how to calculate the Cyclic Ion Blaster? I can't tell if its better or worse than a Burst Cannon. My guess is the CIB is better, but I can't prove it and I'm not quite sure how to calculate it in excel...

The CIB is only marginally more effective than the BC, and significantly less efficient... but it does offer the opportunity for epic rend rolls.... it's all about your own personal preference and if the 11 point difference is going to mean more than just 1 less Fire Warrior for you. If you can afford it... take it.

As some of you may know, I'm active duty Navy, and recently have been mobilized. I will be back at updating/providing new content to the Tau Mathhammer thread towards the middle of June.

Sorry for the delay!

Great crunch of the numbers this will help my build balance out for the tourny coming up here at the end of the month

Since I pretty much duplicated the OPs data for killing infantry, I went ahead and modified my excel spreadsheet for chances to destroy vehicles as well. I'm only calculating for a vehicle destroyed result, so I don't factor in the fact that you can glance a vehicle to death with weapon destoryed or other similar situations. I'm about 95% sure the numbers are accurate, but its possible I botched something I'm not seeing. I also don't know how to import the excel like the OP into the post, so I'll try this with code tags. For this first post, consider the range to be 6" (I can adjust very quickly in the spreadsheet, but I can't type it all in quickly at all)

*EDIT* Looks like code tags didn't work at all. Here is the data in a very hard to read format.

*EDIT 2* crude spacing with dots to make it more legible.

Suite Config................. ARM 10 | PPK ARM 10 | ARM 11 | PPK ARM 11 | ARM 12 | PPK ARM 12 | ARM 13 | PPK ARM 13 | ARM 14 | PPK ARM 14 |
Broadside
TLRG,.A.S.S...................62.5%............128............52.1%.......153.6...............41.6%.............192.............31.25%..........256............20.83%............384
TLRG,.TA........................74.1%............108............61.7%.......129.6...............49.3%.............162.............37.04%..........216............24.69%.............324

Deathrain
TLMP,.Flamer.................37.5%............125.3.........25%.........188..................12.5%.............376..........
TLMP,.TA.........................44.4%.............119.3.........29.6%.......178.9...............14.8%.............357.75..........

Firestorm.&.Teamlead.
MP,BC,MT.......................37.5%.............133.3........16.7%.......300..................8.3%...............600
MP,BC,TA,.HWMT.........50%.................130..........22.2%.......292.5................11.1%.............585

Firesurge.&.Teamlead
FB,MP,MT........................65.5%............82.4..........54.9%.......98.4..................43.1%.............125.4.........30.1%..........179.5............24.3%...........222.17
FB,MP,TA,HWMT...........87.3%............67.5..........73.1%.......80.7.................57.4%.............102.7.........40.1%..........147.1............32.4%...........182.1

Bladestorm.&.Teamlead
PR,BC,MT.......................29.2%.............198.9........8.3%.........696
PR,BC,TA,.HWMT.........38.9%..............187.7......11.1%.......657

Firekife.&.Teamlead
MP,PR,MT.......................41.6%..............148.8........25%.........248...................8.3%...............744
MP,PR,TA,.HWMT.........55.6%..............138.6.......33.3%.......231..................11.1%..............693

Helios.&.teamlead
PR.FB,MT........................57.1%............108.4.........46.5%.......133.3................34.7%.............178.6.........30.1%..........206...............24.3%...........255.1
PR,FB,TA,HWMT...........76.2%............101............62.1%.......124.1.................46.3%.............166.3.........40.1%..........191.9............32.4%...........237.6

Piranha
FB....................................53%................113.2.........38.2%.......157.1................34.7%.............172.8.........30.1%..........199.4.............24.3%...........246.9
FB,TA..............................68.8%..............101.7.........50.1%.......137.5.................46.3%............151.2.........40.1%..........174.5............32.4%...........216

Hammerhead
RG,2x.BC,TA.................88.8%..............180...........46.3%.......345.6.................37%................432............27.8%..........576...............18.5%...........864