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AdeptusAssfartes wrote:No, the KKK doesnt get to influence a hobby like this. Thats ridiculous.

The fact that I've seen a Marine army with its Chapter Master titled the Grand Imperial Wizard and its Vets using the old metal robed DA(with white robes) disagrees with you.

Mind you, this army was built in the South, too.

Just like with everything else: context matters.
White robed goblins? Fine.
White robed goblins, with their faces masked by white cloth and carrying burning crosses as standards? Not fine.

And since someone just had to bring up 'Nazi' Imperial Guard:
Using the uniform colors of the Nazis? Fine.
Using the uniform colors, names of famous Nazis, swastikas, and more? Not fine, unless you're actually playing Flames of War or another WWII historical game.

Kanluwen wrote:Just like with everything else: context matters.
White robed goblins? Fine.
White robed goblins, with their faces masked by white cloth and carrying burning crosses as standards? Not fine.

And since someone just had to bring up 'Nazi' Imperial Guard:
Using the uniform colors of the Nazis? Fine.
Using the uniform colors, names of famous Nazis, swastikas, and more? Not fine, unless you're actually playing Flames of War or another WWII historical game.

This.

The KKK's robes hide their faces. Because the organization started for the purposes of criminal terrorism and murder. The goblin robes don't hide their faces, so they don't directly resemble the KKK's robes. Also, not having any of the associated imagery or objects leaves you in the clear.

Sorry... couldn't help myself.

Wait... what?

Why would it be a bad thing to make night goblins themed as kkk members? Burning crosses and all? Like all goblins, night goblins are rather a parody so I don't see why making them seem KKKish would be that bad. I understand that the KKK is bad BUT really, making a mockery of them via toy models really shouldn't bother anyone.

But I guess this is my view of history, that we should actually learn it and know it. By creating a taboo we essentially are collectively forgetting anything that happened. So i say on the back of every night gobbo you put a big flaming cross!

I wouldnt percieve it as having any racial connotation to it. I mean im looking at a bunch of goblins in white robes, not a mob of dumb, angry, southern, toothless idiots burning crosses.

Can i just point out that both WHFB and 40k are both highly racist (lets face it, its not just a few different races anymore) and sexist anyway? (and alot more)

At the end of the day, are we going to cry when a wizard has a white robe?
So we should now drop alot of colours from our themes?

Nah, its not OTT.
As said, crosses or masks would tip it too much.


As they are they are simply white robed gobbo's.
Which i might add look pretty quality and a nice break from the constant black robes everyone paints them with.

It's not racist. Think of it this way. They are just a touch of blue away from friendly Smurfs.

To be honest, don't paint them white because you want to be controversial. Paint them white if you like it. If you're willing to arouse controversy, then you're just attention-whoring with a gimmick.

These threads come up all the time with Confederate IG, Nazi IG, etc. If you want to offend people, go ahead. However, no number of people on Dakka saying it's alright will ever alleviate the stigma you'll develop at your FLGS.

Absolutionis wrote:To be honest, don't paint them white because you want to be controversial. Paint them white if you like it. If you're willing to arouse controversy, then you're just attention-whoring with a gimmick.

This is also an important point, but...

These threads come up all the time with Confederate IG, Nazi IG, etc. If you want to offend people, go ahead. However, no number of people on Dakka saying it's alright will ever alleviate the stigma you'll develop at your FLGS.

The thing to remember with most of the "Confederate" and "Nazi IG" posts are just like this one:
People wondering if their idea would be "controversial".

I think it's time we get a sticky on this kind of topic.
Colors alone do not make something a "mirror of an idea".
Context matters.
White robed characters are not members of the KKK just because they're wearing white. White robes, with pointed full hoods and eyeholes cut into the mask? That's echoing the KKK and trying to be controversial.
Guard wearing grey dress uniforms and slouch caps does not make something a "Confederate IG" force. Guard wearing grey dress uniforms, with banners painted like the Confederacy's flag? That's a "Confederate IG" force.
Guard wearing Wehrmacht camouflage smocks and gray pants with black boots doesn't make them a "Nazi IG" force. Guard wearing Wehrmacht camouflage smocks with swastikas plastered over everything does make it a "Nazi IG" force.

When doing a project that you think might have controversy attached because of your color scheme, take the time to sit down and problem solve. There's two basic questions you should be asking yourself before committing paint to plastic.
Are you using symbols associated with the controversial aspect of the color scheme?
This isn't necessary, at all, unless you're playing historicals and is generally frowned upon outside of that venue.

Are you including models that you're converting up to base around that controversial aspect of the color scheme?
White robed Night Goblins by themselves are completely inoffensive and just a departure from the norm. White robed Night Goblins carrying burning crosses and with a background of being "dispossessed slave owners and an angry remnant of a lost war" is completely unacceptable.

Norsehawk wrote:I see nothing wrong with them. I do suggest you make one a bit 'odd' however, make his robe pink, and then make a red sock out of greenstuff and stick it to the back of his robe.

I dont get it :/

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:

Norsehawk wrote:I see nothing wrong with them. I do suggest you make one a bit 'odd' however, make his robe pink, and then make a red sock out of greenstuff and stick it to the back of his robe.

I dont get it :/

If you wash a white robe with a red sock, the red sock will bleed and discolor the robe.

They are night goblins. No it would not be racist and if anyone had an issue tell them to piss off because little plastic goblins had nothing to do with actual slavery/racism in our world (Then again no one alive in N.America is either so I laugh when people make an issue of these things and ask for reparations and wonder why I tell them to get a job). In fact, portraying the KKK as a bunch of useless little gobbos would be demeaning to THEM and not anyone else. It boggles me how the same people who get up in arms about this feel it is appropriate to dress up as Native Americans at Halloween and make a mockery of all things asian with half of the costumes I have seen.

My initial instinct was oh no..., but they green skin and yellow shield make it ok. Just don't paint them pasty faced with confederate flags and you should be fine.

I do have to wonder how night goblins keep all that white so clean?

There lil toy men ! just do it .
no one seemed to take offence of my crucified Jesus penitent engine or my demolition man style salamandas cpt

and as people have said allready Warhammer is inherently racist anyway .

maybe just shy away from painting the tied up dwarf black with a Afro !

I heavily considered getting a bunch of these guys (with white robes) to run in my 40k army, but couldn't find a decent way to give them Blastas. They'd be fighting alongside those awesome 2nd Edition Nazi Stormboyz.

*sigh*

Jackal wrote:Can i just point out that both WHFB and 40k are both highly racist (lets face it, its not just a few different races anymore) and sexist anyway? (and alot more)

There is some truth to this. While the sexist argument isnt as strong (due to the fact that Eldar and Dark Eldar include women and there has been rumors of a revision to the SOB), I will agree that there is much about the game's characters/army's that is racist. I think that can attributed to the producers of the game being slightly racist. From what ive heard and read isnt Phil Kelly a closet supremist?

Racism in the context of a fictional dystopian world makes sense, and portraying it or being aware of it in the fluff is not a big deal.

Specifically modeling an army to evoke a REAL WORLD racist group is problematic and offensive to many people. Because it's violating the parameters and the fluff of the game world, importing something offensive purely for shock value.

Again, Kanluwen nailed it.

Mannahnin wrote:Racism in the context of a fictional dystopian world makes sense, and portraying it or being aware of it in the fluff is not a big deal.

Specifically modeling an army to evoke a REAL WORLD racist group is problematic and offensive to many people. Because it's violating the parameters and the fluff of the game world, importing something offensive purely for shock value.

Again, Kanluwen nailed it.

Ok so if there is the KKK in the fluff its totally ok to portray it, but if it appears in the real world and the game its suddenly offensive and shouldn't be played?

That is the biggest load of bull I have heard in a while. Your argument presents itself as if the Warhammer 40k universe is a void in which nothing else matters. Then you present this idea of the real world and say that it is wrong to place real world parameters in this game. I don't think it is a logic flaw, I just think it is a poor argument. The arguement is poor because Warhammer fluff is generally not established to the degree that would lend your argument credibility. If I created a space marines chapter that ran around and hunted other space marines that are different than them (lets say my armor was white and I hunted all black armored marines thinking they were heretics). Technically i created my own chapter with my own fluff that fits into the W40k universe (especially if i use the GK codex and run an inquisitor).

The real fact of the matter is that we cannot pretend that our gaming system is devoid of social inequalities and problems, by doing so is a dilution of the meta. Furthermore, it is not as if you are supporting these groups if you build your army to them. Shock value is good, great! Marketing does this all the time. If you want to stand out in a tournament, play the army that is modeled to look like the KKK.

Please explain to me why shock value is wrong?

Would it be racist to grab a robed Dark Angel body and put an Eldar head on it and paint it white?

No.

Because it isn't real.

I know that some people will disagree with me, but if you think it might be a bad idea, it probably is. I understand the want to do something different, but this could end badly.

I'm not saying that anyone here is one of those nutcase gamers trying to claim their nazi guard is inoffensive, while at the same time describing how awesome the nazis were, but white robed gobbos combined with some of the in regiment dioramas described could easily lead to symbolism that could cause conflict.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:
Ok so if there is the KKK in the fluff its totally ok to portray it, but if it appears in the real world and the game its suddenly offensive and shouldn't be played?
That is the biggest load of bull I have heard in a while. Your argument presents itself as if the Warhammer 40k universe is a void in which nothing else matters. Then you present this idea of the real world and say that it is wrong to place real world parameters in this game. I don't think it is a logic flaw, I just think it is a poor argument. The argument is poor because Warhammer fluff is generally not established to the degree that would lend your argument credibility.

You'll notice that what Mannahnin said in his statement was that "portraying it or being aware of it in the fluff is not a big deal".

The "game world" isn't the "fluff world". You're not going to see the 'fictional dystopia', you're seeing the military might of that fictional dystopia.

If I created a space marines chapter that ran around and hunted other space marines that are different than them (lets say my armor was white and I hunted all black armored marines thinking they were heretics). Technically i created my own chapter with my own fluff that fits into the W40k universe (especially if i use the GK codex and run an inquisitor).

That fluff actually doesn't "fit into the W40k universe", even using the Grey Knights or Inquisition as an excuse.
"A Space Marines Chapter that ran around and hunted other Space Marines that are different than them" because of armor color is just a half-arsed attempt to justify having a "KKK army for shock value".
And frankly, if I were a shopowner and you showed up to play trying to sell me with that background for your force I'd kick you out of my shop.

The real fact of the matter is that we cannot pretend that our gaming system is devoid of social inequalities and problems, by doing so is a dilution of the meta. Furthermore, it is not as if you are supporting these groups if you build your army to them.

Your friends and acquaintances will know that you are "not supporting these groups if you build your army to them". A random player in a tournament, who has never met you before will not.
And for the record, "the meta game" has nothing to do with "social inequalities and problems".
Unless Eldar having a crummy army is suddenly cause for the ACLU to get involved.

Shock value is good, great! Marketing does this all the time. If you want to stand out in a tournament, play the army that is modeled to look like the KKK.
Please explain to me why shock value is wrong?

Because in this case you're not talking about shock value.
You're trying to provoke an emotional reaction from people and then claim moral justification for bringing real world politics and values into the game world.

Because in this case you're not talking about shock value.
You're trying to provoke an emotional reaction from people and then claim moral justification for bringing real world politics and values into the game world.

What I am saying is that there is no ethical reason to avoid or promote bringing these issues to the 40k universe via modeling or user created fluff. Especially when it works so well in a fictional dystopia. I know this will cause issues for some people (so try not to take what I am saying and blow it out of proportion) there seems to be no reason to promote censorship within this game. I am of the school of thought that models will NOT make someone so innately offended that they will tell me I am a racist. Sorry but I don't act racist, I don't promote racism, but I feel I should be able to model a KKK themed army and bring it to tournaments.

Your friends and acquaintances will know that you are "not supporting these groups if you build your army to them". A random player in a tournament, who has never met you before will not.
And for the record, "the meta game" has nothing to do with "social inequalities and problems".
Unless Eldar having a crummy army is suddenly cause for the ACLU to get involved.

Sorry, what I mean by meta is fluff

if I were a shopowner and you showed up to play trying to sell me with that background for your force I'd kick you out of my shop.

I know if you were the shop owner you wouldn't need a reason, but on what moral basis would you do that?

You'll notice that what Mannahnin said in his statement was that "portraying it or being aware of it in the fluff is not a big deal".

The "game world" isn't the "fluff world". You're not going to see the 'fictional dystopia', you're seeing the military might of that fictional dystopia.

So my awareness (of the social issues) enacted in portrayal of fluff (aka the models I build to fluff), which happens to get played out via the military might of a fictional dystopia is not ok?

If people assume it is a KKK thing, then they went to racism first and you can not control what people think or if they find meaning where there is none.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:

Because in this case you're not talking about shock value.
You're trying to provoke an emotional reaction from people and then claim moral justification for bringing real world politics and values into the game world.

What I am saying is that there is no ethical reason to avoid or promote bringing these issues to the 40k universe via modeling or user created fluff. Especially when it works so well in a fictional dystopia. I know this will cause issues for some people (so try not to take what I am saying and blow it out of proportion) there seems to be no reason to promote censorship within this game.

There's no "censorship" involved.
It's called "good taste".

I am of the school of thought that models will NOT make someone so innately offended that they will tell me I am a racist. Sorry but I don't act racist, I don't promote racism, but I feel I should be able to model a KKK themed army and bring it to tournaments.

Uh...huh. And why do you think you "should be able to model a KKK themed army and bring it to tournaments"?
There's no reason, whatsoever, to do such a thing other than to try to promote shock value. Which is completely unnecessary, childish, and shows a lack of character and good taste.

Your friends and acquaintances will know that you are "not supporting these groups if you build your army to them". A random player in a tournament, who has never met you before will not.
And for the record, "the meta game" has nothing to do with "social inequalities and problems".
Unless Eldar having a crummy army is suddenly cause for the ACLU to get involved.

Sorry, what I mean by meta is fluff

And you'd still be wrong. Fluff != gameplay.
Does the fluff of a unit affect the gameplay? Sure.
But we're not talking about a game where the socioeconomic factors come into play.
We're playing games that are straight up slugfests between forces, there's no need for you to try to "enlighten" your opponent.

if I were a shopowner and you showed up to play trying to sell me with that background for your force I'd kick you out of my shop.

I know if you were the shop owner you wouldn't need a reason, but on what moral basis would you do that?

Because I don't like tasteless trolls trying to exercise their supposed "free speech" and impinging on everyone else's enjoyment of the game.

You'll notice that what Mannahnin said in his statement was that "portraying it or being aware of it in the fluff is not a big deal".

The "game world" isn't the "fluff world". You're not going to see the 'fictional dystopia', you're seeing the military might of that fictional dystopia.

So my awareness (of the social issues) enacted in portrayal of fluff (aka the models I build to fluff), which happens to get played out via the military might of a fictional dystopia is not ok?

Show me where the Imperial Guard purges a world of life because they're colored differently.

You can try to say that it's "racism" that the Imperium of Man kills off alien races, but it's really "xenophobia" and "xenocide".
They're far from doing it just for petty reasons like "they look different'.
To try to justify a KKK themed army in such a way is trying to wrap yourself up in free speech to the point that the Westboro Baptist Church has.

It's not white supremacy if there's a little green goblin in the robes. That kind of defeats the purpose. It'll be fine, just add some weathering as suggested previously, it's not going to be an obvious problem you'll face.

If you do have a problem it will be someone who reads between the wrong lines, or picks up on it in that wrong way.

Lord_Osma wrote:If people assume it is a KKK thing, then they went to racism first and you can not control what people think or if they find meaning where there is none.

Nobody would go to KKK first, unless you prompt them by asking "Does this look like the KKK?".
Otherwise, it's just really brightly colored goblins.

Because I don't like tasteless trolls trying to exercise their supposed "free speech" and impinging on everyone else's enjoyment of the game.

Hey now, be nice. This is a theoretical discussion and you are taking it personally. Don't.

And you'd still be wrong. Fluff != gameplay.
Does the fluff of a unit affect the gameplay? Sure.
But we're not talking about a game where the socioeconomic factors come into play.
We're playing games that are straight up slugfests between forces, there's no need for you to try to "enlighten" your opponent.

But the fluff of a unit DOES affect how a modeler might want to show that fluff.
I see what you are doing, you don't want me to tell you how to think about the world, to enlighten you. So its ok that you stifle everyone else while promoting a view of "this is only a game where models fight, there is nothing else here, anything else here is a figment of your imagination and does not exist." While I respect your position, I think you are wrong. W40k like everything else is a text. We read it and we view it and yes on the surface it is a tabletop game in a fictional dystopia where models fight, but on a deeper level it is a mirror (albeit somewhat perplexing mirror) of what is going on today in the here and now.

some catchwords that might be used to show the similarities between these worlds: Imperialism, Capitalism, Xenophobia, Racism, Warmongering.
This is my deep level view of warhammer, if you disagree with me fully about this then this debate cannot continue and will end up with people upset.

Kanluwen wrote:Show me where the Imperial Guard purges a world of life because they're colored differently.

There are plenty of cases during the Great Crusade where humans had evolved differently than the conquoring Imperium, and the Imperium destroyed their entire civilization. And this isn't just about Chaos mutations, the Imperium of Man is pretty much all about "racial purity." Just because they don't discriminate based on color doesn't make their actions any more defensible.

The IOM has pretty strong parallels with Nazi Germany (although there are a lot of Soviet influence as well).

Grey Knight Luke wrote:

Because I don't like tasteless trolls trying to exercise their supposed "free speech" and impinging on everyone else's enjoyment of the game.

Hey now, be nice. This is a theoretical discussion and you are taking it personally. Don't.

You asked me why I would throw someone out for doing such a thing. I told you.
You're doing nobody favors by continuing this line of discussion. It's not acceptable in the context of 40k/WHFB/Warmachine/Hordes/anything that isn't a historical wargaming set--and even then, the KKK doesn't even fit into that category, nor does the Holocaust or any number of the issues that you're trying to 'enlighten' people about.

And you'd still be wrong. Fluff != gameplay.
Does the fluff of a unit affect the gameplay? Sure.
But we're not talking about a game where the socioeconomic factors come into play.
We're playing games that are straight up slugfests between forces, there's no need for you to try to "enlighten" your opponent.

But the fluff of a unit DOES affect how a modeler might want to show that fluff.

Show me any part of the fluff of 40k that makes it acceptable to showcase real world examples of racism, fascism, genocide, criminal activity, or any number of things.
You can't. Because you're not using the fluff examples, you're trying to jackhammer a point home by using real world examples.

I see what you are doing, you don't want me to tell you how to think about the world, to enlighten you. So its ok that you stifle everyone else while promoting a view of "this is only a game where models fight, there is nothing else here, anything else here is a figment of your imagination and does not exist." While I respect your position, I think you are wrong.

No, you clearly don't respect my position or even understand it.
These things do not bloody belong in the game.
You do not have free speech in this regard, and I'm quite frankly sick and tired of people trying to wrap themselves up in that excuse.
"Free speech" is something that is grossly misunderstood. The government cannot shut you up for disagreeing with its practices, but a business owner whose premises you're on can shut you up and remove you from the premises if he doesn't like the message you're trying to portray.

W40k like everything else is a text. We read it and we view it and yes on the surface it is a tabletop game in a fictional dystopia where models fight, but on a deeper level it is a mirror (albeit somewhat perplexing mirror) of what is going on today in the here and now.

No, it's really not. It's a game. I don't play 40k to get politics shoved down my throat, and even reading 40k novels/Codices would tell you that the parallels are at best so shallow and absurdly convoluted that to even make the statement that it's a "mirror of what is going on today" is a logical fallacy.

some catchwords that might be used to show the similarities between these worlds: Imperialism, Capitalism, Xenophobia, Racism, Warmongering.
This is my deep level view of warhammer, if you disagree with me fully about this then this debate cannot continue and will end up with people upset.

What debate? All you're trying to do is get across the point of "free speech free speech free speech" and that themes exist within 40k that -shock gasp- are similar to the real world.
It's almost as though the authors of 40k live in the same world as the rest of us, and their experiences and knowledge have somehow shaped or influenced that.

biccat wrote:There are plenty of cases during the Great Crusade where humans had evolved differently than the conquering Imperium, and the Imperium destroyed their entire civilization. And this isn't just about Chaos mutations, the Imperium of Man is pretty much all about "racial purity." Just because they don't discriminate based on color doesn't make their actions any more defensible.

Actually, there's not. The Interex and several other "differently evolved humans" were not destroyed just because they were "different". They were tainted, so far removed from humanity that there was no bringing them back into the fold. In many cases, they'd regressed to the point of barbarianism or they'd transcended the level of the Imperium itself. There's also the "we want something they have but they won't share" aspect to consider.
But you know that, you're only trying to make a strawman argument as usual.

The IOM has pretty strong parallels with Nazi Germany (although there are a lot of Soviet influence as well).

They've also got pretty strong parallels with every freaking conquering culture in existence when it comes to "destroying the entire civilization" of those they come across.
Do you think the Spanish destroyed the Mesoamerican cultures because they were "different"?
No. They wanted the resources and land.
How about the early English settlers at Jamestown?