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Shardnets only work against models in base contact with the wych with the Shardnet.

Neutralizing them is a simple matter of being a competent player.

"Oh. My enemy has a shardnet. My Sergeant/powerfist/IC/wulfen/etc will not be out front and assaultable."

It *really is* child's play to keep keep the shardnet from affecting anything useful. You should never expect to get more out of it than -1 attack to a regular enemy model. Anything beyond that is luck in being faced against a poor opponent.

I have to agree i'll be dropping shardnets, for what I do not know.

Doesn't the maths favour razorflails over hydra gauntlets, against all opponents, unless you happen to roll a 4 on your combat drugs roll? I'm sure someone on Dakka did the maths and posted about it.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Doesn't the maths favour razorflails over hydra gauntlets, against all opponents, unless you happen to roll a 4 on your combat drugs roll? I'm sure someone on Dakka did the maths and posted about it.

no
Razor flails do better against Meq while Hydras do better against Geq. Combat drugs +1WS, +1 S as well as FC help both but statistically favor Hydras(helping them more) Reroll to wound only helps hydras and +1 attack helps both but favors Razor flails. Obviously bloodbrides have +1 attack, so flails are better on them.

Flails are also predictable while hydras are unpreditable. Sometimes you want one sometimes you want the other.

Dashofpepper wrote:Shardnets only work against models in base contact with the wych with the Shardnet.

Neutralizing them is a simple matter of being a competent player.

"Oh. My enemy has a shardnet. My Sergeant/powerfist/IC/wulfen/etc will not be out front and assaultable."

It *really is* child's play to keep keep the shardnet from affecting anything useful. You should never expect to get more out of it than -1 attack to a regular enemy model. Anything beyond that is luck in being faced against a poor opponent.

I totally agree. I'm sure that Dash can remember my multi-paragraph posts explaining here and on Warseer why Shardnets really don't make a difference, but I'll give the short explanation here.

Even if you get -2 attacks on something like a Powerfist, the 20 points you spent on those 'Nets probably won't result in saving 20 points worth of wyches. Assuming a powerfist on a MEq:

2 attacks = 1 hit = 5/6 wound = 5/12 failed dodge save. You'll have to be in combat removing 2 powerfist attacks per phase for approximately 5 phases to save two wyches (20 points worth), on average. They're just not a good investment of points in a basic wych squad.

Now, I have had really good luck with using three Shardnets in a Bloodbride squad accompanying my Clonefield equipped Archon. In that case, the 'Nets are there specifically to eliminate attacks that might be directed at my Archon so I can maximize the effect of the Clonefield. Works pretty good, but I still have to be very careful about my assaults.

Saldiven wrote:
I totally agree. I'm sure that Dash can remember my multi-paragraph posts explaining here and on Warseer why Shardnets really don't make a difference, but I'll give the short explanation here.

Even if you get -2 attacks on something like a Powerfist, the 20 points you spent on those 'Nets probably won't result in saving 20 points worth of wyches. Assuming a powerfist on a MEq:

2 attacks = 1 hit = 5/6 wound = 5/12 failed dodge save. You'll have to be in combat removing 2 powerfist attacks per phase for approximately 5 phases to save two wyches (20 points worth), on average. They're just not a good investment of points in a basic wych squad.

Now, I have had really good luck with using three Shardnets in a Bloodbride squad accompanying my Clonefield equipped Archon. In that case, the 'Nets are there specifically to eliminate attacks that might be directed at my Archon so I can maximize the effect of the Clonefield. Works pretty good, but I still have to be very careful about my assaults.

100% agree. MC or Dreadnaughts might be a little better but still. Its just not worth it.

I'm with Dash on the weapons, never play Shardnet and Impaler now, largely because most of the untis I hit don't get enough attacks to make it worthwhile. The HydraGauntlets at least give you some extra dice(assuming you don't roll a one), which just give some extra chances of getting a lucky roll.

I find it funny that people say you can't get your shardnet into contact against more than a single model. There is no reason why you can't get 2 normally. Denying the shardnet to hit the special CCW carrier is not so easy either, basically for the same reason that denying a Deldar player the assault they want is hard/impossible : mobility. A single shardnet is what I use to reduce incoming attacks. This is more about winning the combat than saving a model. Not always, but often the attack you are able to reduce is worth it simply to help win combat.

If I'm taking wych weapons, which I often do since I run 10 man units in raiders (I know the Haemmy is "required", but I get along fine without them) I take 1 hydra gauntlet and 1 shardnet on wychs. On bloodbrides razorflails are always better, and I run 2x razorflails and 1x shardnet. When you get really good with the shardnet you'll find that you can force pile-ins onto it or get your optimal target more often.

Here is a thread I made to compare the effectiveness of the Hydra guantlet versus the razorflails.

A lot has been discussed back and forth, so I'll just answer the main OP question:

2 units of 9 wyches (Hek w/ Agon, razorflails & HGs, it was one of my first games with DE) took on 14 Plague Marines. Their half wounded Daemon Prince and a Greater Daemon joined in the combat half way through. After 4-5 rounds of h2h, all of the Nurlge boys were killed, daemons too. I had one Heka left from Unit 1 and Unit 2 had 4 girls left. Average dice rolls, as I recall.

Dracos wrote:I find it funny that people say you can't get your shardnet into contact against more than a single model. There is no reason why you can't get 2 normally. Denying the shardnet to hit the special CCW carrier is not so easy either, basically for the same reason that denying a Deldar player the assault they want is hard/impossible : mobility. A single shardnet is what I use to reduce incoming attacks. This is more about winning the combat than saving a model. Not always, but often the attack you are able to reduce is worth it simply to help win combat.

If I'm taking wych weapons, which I often do since I run 10 man units in raiders (I know the Haemmy is "required", but I get along fine without them) I take 1 hydra gauntlet and 1 shardnet on wychs. On bloodbrides razorflails are always better, and I run 2x razorflails and 1x shardnet. When you get really good with the shardnet you'll find that you can force pile-ins onto it or get your optimal target more often.

Here is a thread I made to compare the effectiveness of the Hydra guantlet versus the razorflails.

Unless your opponent is dumb enough to be totally bunched up when you launch your assault, you're not going to be able to get one 'Net wych in contact with more than one enemy model when you assault. When he does his pile in move, he will pile in his models in such a fashion that no other model contacts the 'Net. Then, as casualties ensue, he will do whatever it takes to remove the model in base with the 'Net last so that you cannot relocate that wych to base up with multiple models. If you're based with multiple models, a smart opponent will kill one of them as quickly as possible because that results in the lowest amount of lost attacks for his models.

If your opponent assaults you, which can easily happen if the wych's transport has been popped, your opponent will attempt to base up a single normal model with your 'Net before engaging all the rest of the wyches. If you play it smart, this is your best opportunity to try to get the 'Net based with multiple enemies; remember, though, that if the 'Net is already engaged, even if it's not BtB, it may not make a pile in move.

If I know you have 'Nets, any model I want to avoid having attacks removed from in a unit is going to be bubble-wrapped; I'll sacrifice your removing two regular attacks from normal troopers so you cannot get in BtB with my special weapon trooper.

There is no way to "force" pile in moves to have more than one enemy model get into base with the 'Net, at least not by any understanding of the rules that I have. I'd be happy for you to describe the manner in which you would force someone to pile in such that one or more models had to base-up with the 'Net.

Lastly, as I pointed out earlier, the reduction of attacks is almost completely meaningless unless your talking about a unit consisting of single or very small numbers that has a limited number of attacks. Taking away even two powerfist attacks, statistically, won't even reduce your casualties by 1 over two player turns; you need to remove four WS4 S6+ attacks to save one wych per combat phase. The points premium you pay for them just plain doesn't result in a benefit consummate with those points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:A lot has been discussed back and forth, so I'll just answer the main OP question:

2 units of 9 wyches (Hek w/ Agon, razorflails & HGs, it was one of my first games with DE) took on 14 Plague Marines. Their half wounded Daemon Prince and a Greater Daemon joined in the combat half way through. After 4-5 rounds of h2h, all of the Nurlge boys were killed, daemons too. I had one Heka left from Unit 1 and Unit 2 had 4 girls left. Average dice rolls, as I recall.

Wow...that is so statistically unlikely to happen that I would hesitate to ever suggest that the OP try to replicate the above event. Depending upon the drug affect, the Hekatrixes should average about 3 wounds every game turn, one more on the turn they assault. Considering T5, 3+ save and FNP, the other 16 wyches really shouldn't have killed more than one on the turn they assaulted, and less than one every turn thereafter, even if none of the wyches died. Each basic wych attack has roughly one chance in 72 of hitting, wounding, beating the armor save and beating FnP.

16 wyches including two Hekatrixes should, statistically, take somewhere around four full game turns to kill 14 PM, not even adding in the DP and GD, and that's assuming none of the wyches die at any point during the combat.

Plague Marines are the bane of wyches.

In order to force the pile-in on your net, you simply assault the unit in a way that leave as little room as possible for remaining models to base other wychs. You then put the net model on an end of the battle line so that any unbased models have to go a long way to reach anything that is not the net model. This works to some degree, getting as many as 3 models on the net. (this technique is used on units that are spread out).

You are more likely to get a special CCW if the unit is small. Of course a bigger unit can bubble wrap their special CCW. But then why are you assaulting a large full strength unit with just one wych unit? If they are bubblewraping, then you can easily base 2 with the net model anyways. Either way you are getting 2 models or the special CCW at the very least.

edit: Spelling seems to be off today.

Saldiven wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:2 units of 9 wyches (Hek w/ Agon, razorflails & HGs, it was one of my first games with DE) took on 14 Plague Marines. Their half wounded Daemon Prince and a Greater Daemon joined in the combat half way through. After 4-5 rounds of h2h, all of the Nurlge boys were killed, daemons too. I had one Heka left from Unit 1 and Unit 2 had 4 girls left. Average dice rolls, as I recall.

Wow...that is so statistically unlikely to happen that I would hesitate to ever suggest that the OP try to replicate the above event. Depending upon the drug affect, the Hekatrixes should average about 3 wounds every game turn, one more on the turn they assault. Considering T5, 3+ save and FNP, the other 16 wyches really shouldn't have killed more than one on the turn they assaulted, and less than one every turn thereafter, even if none of the wyches died. Each basic wych attack has roughly one chance in 72 of hitting, wounding, beating the armor save and beating FnP.

16 wyches including two Hekatrixes should, statistically, take somewhere around four full game turns to kill 14 PM, not even adding in the DP and GD, and that's assuming none of the wyches die at any point during the combat.

Plague Marines are the bane of wyches.

*scratches head*. Come to think of it, the Combat Drug was re-rolling wounds. So, yeah, this ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Still, I was damned impressed. The Agonizers were frying the PMs in the first couple rounds, but when the DPs arrived, I 'piled in' the Heks to take them out.

I agree that shardnets are never worth it... if you are playing against a computer. I've had the same friends ask me, week in and week out, when I assault, "What do they have, shardnets? What do those do again?".

I suppose it comes down to what environment you are playing in. Yes, shardnets rely on your opponent in order to be effective, but I find it hard to believe that I live in a small pocket of gaming idiocy in southeast Michigan and players everywhere else have other armies' knowledge and assault movement down to a fine art.

I still think that if they save a single Wych during the game, which they will, then they're a great choice. You lose the splinter pistol, but the unit is usually fleeting anyways, and the model with the shardnet gets the same number of attacks. In raiders, you're limited to 10 models, so it's not like you can use the points from a shardnet to buy an extra Wych. And then, you never know how it may benefit you in combat resolution, when you just needed that one extra wound to win combat.

Let's just say, then, that shardnets are not worth the points in a competitive setting? I am just guessing from the OP's opening remarks and post count that he isn't heading to a GT right away! I'm trying to assist with the 'without getting slaughtered' part of that post, and I've personally found that Wyches will last a very long time in combat against units without power weapons, and the shardnets help to deal with the unit upgrade model that gets a power weapon. This assuming, of course, they have a pain token, as all Wych units should.

Oaka wrote:
Let's just say, then, that shardnets are not worth the points in a competitive setting? I am just guessing from the OP's opening remarks and post count that he isn't heading to a GT right away!

Inculcating bad habits or poor advice into new players that rely on hoping your opponent is tactically incompetent is never a sound strategy.

Oaka wrote:
I find it hard to believe that I live in a small pocket of gaming idiocy in southeast Michigan and players everywhere else have other armies' knowledge and assault movement down to a fine art.

Your gaming group is probably representative of most gamers. I must unfortunately admit that I'm from Michigan, probably less than two hours from where you live - although I haven't been back to Michigan in a decade thankfully. *deletes a long piece about how crappy SE Michigan is in terms of education and employment opportunities*

I'd give you the following two statements, from my experience gaming around the country.

1. Most 40k gamers are not tactically proficient enough to play 40k competitively.
2. You can never presume that every gamer you play against is going to be incompetent.

Your local gamers aren't idiots, but chances are that none of them are brilliant tacticians either.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Your gaming group is probably representative of most gamers. I must unfortunately admit that I'm from Michigan, probably less than two hours from where you live - although I haven't been back to Michigan in a decade thankfully. *deletes a long piece about how crappy SE Michigan is in terms of education and employment opportunities*

I'd give you the following two statements, from my experience gaming around the country.

1. Most 40k gamers are not tactically proficient enough to play 40k competitively.
2. You can never presume that every gamer you play against is going to be incompetent.

Your local gamers aren't idiots, but chances are that none of them are brilliant tacticians either.

I'd agree with that! It depends on what area of SE Michigan you're talking about, Dash. I've been centered in Ann Arbor for the past 21 years. We have Detroit on our East, and Jackson on our West, but overall, are doing a pretty good job of being an intellectual and educational hub for the region. I certainly agree that the region is not job-friendly for most professions.

I guess what I really want to stress to the OP is that, if you usually play your 40k games in a friend's basement on Sundays like I do, give shardnets a go, yeah?

Isn't the S+I also a question of what you opponent plays rather than just how good they are? If your opponent doesn't play many models with multiple attacks, or if those that do are all in a squad which is going to steal the Wyches' lunch money then either of the other options are probably better (if you take any at all).

Saldiven wrote:If your opponent assaults you, which can easily happen if the wych's transport has been popped, your opponent will attempt to base up a single normal model with your 'Net before engaging all the rest of the wyches. If you play it smart, this is your best opportunity to try to get the 'Net based with multiple enemies; remember, though, that if the 'Net is already engaged, even if it's not BtB, it may not make a pile in move.

Seriously? most competent opponents will shoot wyches to death and save assault as a last resort. No one wants them strking first and getting their 4++

Oaka wrote:
I'd agree with that! It depends on what area of SE Michigan you're talking about, Dash. I've been centered in Ann Arbor for the past 21 years. We have Detroit on our East, and Jackson on our West, but overall, are doing a pretty good job of being an intellectual and educational hub for the region. I certainly agree that the region is not job-friendly for most professions.

I'm from 45 minutes away to your east, north of Detroit, or used to be at any rate.

I've been to 48 states and 22 countries. Michigan has the worst roads I've ever driven on, and I can't help but remember that in Michigan, "Olive Garden" is fancy dining. I turned down a scholarship to MSU to join the army. Later got me into USMA, so no complaints.