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okay, so i don't have a dark eldar army yet
but i am wondering what wyches are good for.
they must be good for something, i'm sure, because i've heard so much about them
but what should i go charging my wyches into to kill the most and cause the most damage without getting slaughtered?

thanks for ideas guys

charge any non assault units
shooty stuff cant take them
charge anything where they are numerically superior
charge anything with power weapons, they are useless against wyches.

avoid huge mobs of ork boys

Okay, so should I join 9 wyches (one of them a hekatrix) with a heamy, put them in a raider and let the wyches take the pain token when they jump out for FnP? Or should I go for a squad of 10 to maximize wych weapons?

They are a bit rubbish against marines - 10 on the charge (with 2 sets of razor flails and a hekatrix w/ agoniser) only kill 2.273 marines.

This jumps up against orcs and lighter armoured stuff but they basically aren't as hitty as you would expect at first glance.

They ran through my squad of tyranid warriors pretty well. I didn't have lash whips. It was an all-comers list.

Phototoxin wrote:They are a bit rubbish against marines - 10 on the charge (with 2 sets of razor flails and a hekatrix w/ agoniser) only kill 2.273 marines.

This jumps up against orcs and lighter armoured stuff but they basically aren't as hitty as you would expect at first glance.

they are not that hitty, but you have to consider the combat drug roll and the cost. unless they get run or a free pain token(one good one bad) they will get something that will hep them in CC. +1str +1WS +1A and reroll to wound will each raise the kill rate against marines by between 33-50% They strike first and then even a full 10 man squad, after losing 2 is only going to on average kill 1 wych in return. If they have 2 CCW then of course they would do double damage, but they cost a lot more than wyches.

phototoxin, i've heard wyches are good at wars of attrition. while wyches won't do much to a MEQ (although 2 kills is decent i think), they won't take too much damage in return:
assuming it's a WS4, S4 MEQ, it'll end up as:
50% chance to hit
66.6% chance to wound
50% invulnerable save
so it ends up at around 16% losses, cut to about 8% if you have FnP. so wyches would be good for tar-pitting MEQs to stop them from gunning down your transports. maybe with some help from an incubi squad they would prove effective at actually wiping enemy squads off the board? that's what i can see them as useful for

sQUiDax wrote:Okay, so should I join 9 wyches (one of them a hekatrix) with a heamy, put them in a raider and let the wyches take the pain token when they jump out for FnP? Or should I go for a squad of 10 to maximize wych weapons?

i dont usually take full squads or wych weapons. makes them too expensive. 7 with a hekatrix with some weapon is nice. haywires on some squads. if you have a haemi you can strip him of his token, but leave him in the raider to go liquify something.

IMHO the only reasons to take wych weapons is if you want to exploit clonefield+shardnet action or you know your opponent takes a lot of dreadnaughts and you want to take them out in CC.


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sQUiDax wrote:phototoxin, i've heard wyches are good at wars of attrition. while wyches won't do much to a MEQ (although 2 kills is decent i think), they won't take too much damage in return:
assuming it's a WS4, S4 MEQ, it'll end up as:
50% chance to hit
66.6% chance to wound
50% invulnerable save
so it ends up at around 16% losses, cut to about 8% if you have FnP. so wyches would be good for tar-pitting MEQs to stop them from gunning down your transports. maybe with some help from an incubi squad they would prove effective at actually wiping enemy squads off the board? that's what i can see them as useful for

it gets more telling when you think about the unit leaders. the hextrix with agonizer really improves the wych squads killing potential. The marine sarg with power weapon is just another attack, and the expensive power fist adds very litte, wounding on 2s instead of 3s.

wait, sorry guys that should be "16% of hits being unsaved wounds" xD
but anyway, the way i see it, wyches aren't there to kill things fast, they're there to be cheap tar-pitters that can do some pretty decent damage for their cost. if you tie down the enemy shooters your transports are less threatened. even if they die, so long as your transports and the units inside your transports don't get shot up early in the game i think they've paid their cost

sQUiDax wrote:wait, sorry guys that should be "16% of hits being unsaved wounds" xD
but anyway, the way i see it, wyches aren't there to kill things fast, they're there to be cheap tar-pitters that can do some pretty decent damage for their cost. if you tie down the enemy shooters your transports are less threatened. even if they die, so long as your transports and the units inside your transports don't get shot up early in the game i think they've paid their cost

killing things slow is what they want. the last thing they want is to kill, break, chase down the enemy in one turn and then get shot to pieces.

I'm with Exergy on this one.. I run 2 squads of wyches in my typical 1850 army, one on a venom and one with a Haemi and Heckatrix in a raider. For the most part, vs any squad except dedicated HTH or huge mobs, they either walk them or tarpit 'em. Either way, it's a win. The dodge is the best armor we have and negates those nasty force/power weapon advantages. The Pain token balances the rest. My primary targets are the shooty squads.. Space Marine Devastators are particularly tasty, especially when he's combat-sqadded his Heavy weapons in one half. Raider gets them there turn 1, on turn 2, bail and assault. The devastator squad never gets a clear shot at his choice of target.. either he shoots the raider in his face or through the cover of the raider at the rest of my army.

The real key is to go after squads of equal or smaller number and those that are less equipped for close combat. But even when you have no alternative, just tarpitting a shooty or other elite squad is an advantage. If 80-90 pts of yours is tying up 200 of theirs.. it's a win. It allows target saturation elsewhere.

well, i am now utterly convinced that wyches are really useful (if used right) and I now what they're good for
thanks everyone

Exergy wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:They are a bit rubbish against marines - 10 on the charge (with 2 sets of razor flails and a hekatrix w/ agoniser) only kill 2.273 marines.

This jumps up against orcs and lighter armoured stuff but they basically aren't as hitty as you would expect at first glance.

they are not that hitty, but you have to consider the combat drug roll and the cost. unless they get run or a free pain token(one good one bad) they will get something that will hep them in CC. +1str +1WS +1A and reroll to wound will each raise the kill rate against marines by between 33-50% They strike first and then even a full 10 man squad, after losing 2 is only going to on average kill 1 wych in return. If they have 2 CCW then of course they would do double damage, but they cost a lot more than wyches.

This is true the combat drugs can shift the odds - I wrote this article ages ago when DE were out comparing the weapons vs different opponents and so on.

On the plus side - wyches are cheap and can do a Matrix and dodge things 50% of the time in melee. Combine that with the shardnets and even bloodangels death squads will have a hard time disloding them. However they will slowly grind you down. An agoniser kills 1 marine on the charge (4 attacks on charge, 1/2 hit 1/2 wound = 1) but wounds hive tyrants equally!

Phototoxin wrote:

This is true the combat drugs can shift the odds - I wrote this article ages ago when DE were out comparing the weapons vs different opponents and so on.

On the plus side - wyches are cheap and can do a Matrix and dodge things 50% of the time in melee. Combine that with the shardnets and even bloodangels death squads will have a hard time disloding them. However they will slowly grind you down. An agoniser kills 1 marine on the charge (4 attacks on charge, 1/2 hit 1/2 wound = 1) but wounds hive tyrants equally!

yup, razorflails are better against MeQ, Hydras are better against GeQ. With drugs, generally Hydras gain over flails. +1WS, Str, and Reroll to wound help Hydras more than flails, as does getting FC from Pain Tokens. +1 attack is much better for Flails. WS and Str do help flails, just not as much as they help Hydras. Reroll to wound obviously does nothing for flails.

On bloodbrides, they already have +1 attack, so flails are again better than hydras.

Personally I dont see either being better than another wych, ever. Shardnets can be useful, but they are completely different.

sQUiDax wrote:What should I go charging my wyches into to kill the most and cause the most damage without getting slaughtered?

Wakers - Arm them with shardnet's and haywire grenades, you can tie them up for several turns and glance them to death whist their 1 attack does next to nothing.

MEQ's/TEQ's - Take an aggonizer hekatrix, a shardnet and attach an archon with an aggonizer, you strike first with a LOAD of power weapon attacks, and have he 4++ to survive the retaliation without having to put any risky ID wounds on your HQ.

MC's - Although most DE units can handle MC's, if there is something that you really dont want to have shoot (Lash Prince ect) you can tie them up with shardnets and reliably wound them with an aggonizer.

Transports - 10 models should be enough to suround most transports, then use haywire grenades to wreck them so the unit inside gets wiped out

Just make sure you avoid units that can put down lots of attacks and CC specialists

The key to wyches being effective isn't in comparing them to what you plan on assaulting, but in creating a situation where the assault is favorable to you.

My wyches always have haywire grenades. They sometimes have a hydragauntlet. They sometimes have an agonizer. Sometimes, they only have haywire grenades.

Would I assault a 6 wound Trygon with a barebones squad of 9 wyches? Hell yes. I'm going to drop 4-5 wounds on him first with blasters and dark lances though, and trust my wyches to be able to do 1-2 wounds in close combat.

Would I assault wyches into a unit of khorne berzerkers? Absolutely. Those berzerkers are going to eat liquifier first, and if I'm not satisfied with the results, they'll pick up splinter cannon fire too until the odds favor me.

Would I assault a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry with wyches? Yep! Depending on what the situation with Longfangs is, whatever I don't need for the longfangs is going to get dumped into the Thunderwolf cavalry, and those TWC are going to get multi-assaulted by multiple wych units. I'm faster, can move further, and Why pit 7-9 wyches against TWC when I put dump 14-18 into them?

Don't think of them in a vaccuum. One of the most worthless exercises in 40k is for people to make decisions based on whether a unit is going to get its "points back" in killing. If I alpha-strike a trueborn unit into an Auto-las predator on turn 1 and kill it, then lose my trueborn unit....they certainly didn't make their points back. But that's 5-6 turns of me not having to spend fire on the predator, 5-6 turns of it not killing my vehicles...

Instead, remember that your army is an ARMY, not a collection of units that you've assembled. They work together, and your wyches should be amply supported by a firebase and...more wyches.

Im considering wyches, and I think that wyches are a key portion of many armies, as their haywire grenades allow damage against vehicles that lance cannot damage. Basically: Blessed Hull Land Raiders and Monoliths. Look, pouring 9 Dark Lances into a Monolith will only yield 1(!) glance. Your wyches will be needed to damage anything of that calibre, which your Darklight weapons cannot handle. These grenades also work well in all-comers lists, where they can multi-assault transports and hinder your opponent's movement (did I get it dash? ).

I also agree with Dash in that softening up, prioritizing units, and using MULTIPLE wych squads will get the desired effect of you slaughtering your opponent's squads mercilessly.

Dark Eldar are a scalpel, not battle axe. You can't just crush someone over the head with them and expect to do well. You have to cut away pieces and then go for the throat. You're supposed to use speed, maneuver, and firepower to wipe out flanks of the enemy and well-placed assault to finish them off. Wyches are an ideal complementary piece for that. Haywires and a starting pain token should be practically mandatory, other wargear/wych weapons are really to flavor/choice, depending on your overall army composition. I prefer Venom Blades over Agonisers, Shardnets over Razorflails/Hydra Gauntlets because I believe in torrenting wounds and denying dice to my enemies, but really it can be up to your own style and tactics.

Skarboy wrote:Dark Eldar are a scalpel, not battle axe. You can't just crush someone over the head with them and expect to do well. You have to cut away pieces and then go for the throat. You're supposed to use speed, maneuver, and firepower to wipe out flanks of the enemy and well-placed assault to finish them off. Wyches are an ideal complementary piece for that. Haywires and a starting pain token should be practically mandatory, other wargear/wych weapons are really to flavor/choice, depending on your overall army composition. I prefer Venom Blades over Agonisers, Shardnets over Razorflails/Hydra Gauntlets because I believe in torrenting wounds and denying dice to my enemies, but really it can be up to your own style and tactics.

I like the venom blade too, the agonizer is better, but at what cost!

Dashofpepper wrote:
Instead, remember that your army is an ARMY, not a collection of units that you've assembled.

This quote right here might well be the single biggest mistake that 99% of all 40K players make when they are trying to decide "how good" any given unit is.

Wyches should always pick fights they can win. Period. If you stick to that philosophy, you won't go wrong. Additionally, they are not a main assault unit unless taken enmasse. Some things they'll bounce off of regardless of how high their initiative is,number of attacks, etc. Gang charging things with them works best.


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Saldiven wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
Instead, remember that your army is an ARMY, not a collection of units that you've assembled.

This quote right here might well be the single biggest mistake that 99% of all 40K players make when they are trying to decide "how good" any given unit is.

+1

With the right wargear Wyches on the charge roll a hideous number of dice, but with their low strength they don't dish out nearly so many wounds. Given you might only get one power weapon hit from the Hekatrix you never remove many power armoured enemies after CC.

Dash has this one absolutely right, Wyches are good, but aren't killy enough to get the job done on their own.

wytches rock. And the models are cool.

Wyches are great for many things, be it tying up a deathstar unit, tying up a shooty unit, tying up psykers, tying up rifle dreads.... you get the picture?? Wyches are great for tying up big, nasty units that seem to scare everything else. But wyches? They just shoot up the next dose and look at that deathstar and go," I bet I can bounce my knife off his head, between that one's legs, off the pointy rock, and into the crotch of that IC! Betcha 100 bucks I can do it blindfolded!! "

Basically, wych units have no fear of anything. They go, they assault, and they win or lose, but they NEVER assault alone, nor are they ever dumb enough to assault a squad that hasn't either been weakened by fire, or that they couldn't destroy utterly in the first place.

However, although the drug crazed BDSM girls love to fight, they must be used like a precision instrument, not a sledgehammer. Like Dash said, overwhelming your target with multiple wych squads works wonders, but, on the flip side of that, tying up a unit you know you can easily destroy until your opponent's assault phase is something that most wych units strive for, so they can't be shot at.

But honestly, it surprises me that noone has mentioned the hidden tactic of wyches.... intimidation!! Yeah, first time someone faces wyches and doesn't know the DE codex, they look at them and go "6+ armor and only T3??? What exactly are they good for then??" And then, when your 9 man wych squad assaults and destroys 3 different Long Fang Packs, or Devastator squad, or Trygons, and there is nothing that your opponent can feasibly do to stop them cause they are locked in assault until the end of his turn, they learn exactly what wyches are good for! At which point in time, they will start doing one of three things, only one of which they can do reliably, and one of which they can do 50% of the time, and the third one, they can't hardly ever do if you are a decent DE general:

Reliable:
1) Shrug their shoulders and face the fact that the wyches WILL make it into assault, despite what he does. Plain and simple, any competent DE General will get their wyches right where they want them, exactly when they want them, and into exactly whatever unit they want them to be assaulting into.

Half the Time
2) Throw a much better suited to CC(and usually double or triple the points cost) squad at them and or shoot them to death if they are in the open. Wyches will intimidate some people so much that they will waste very valuable squads to tie them up and or destroy them, while ignoring the rest of your army. Which means the rest of your army can destroy the rest of their's while the wyches play around for a few turns with the CC squads they threw at them!

Almost never:
3) Avoid the wych squads. If your a decent DE General, YOU should be dictating the battle, not your opponent. So that means that even if they move that IC and his unit as far away as they can from your wyches, or that Long Fang pack, or whatever, you should still be able to reach them within a turn or two, and effectively cut off escape options for them. With our speed, it is extremely hard for anyone to continually avoid wych squads for an entire turn, let alone a game. Plus, if he moves that Long Fang Pack or Dev squad in order to avoid your wyches, well thats almost as good as them being dead seeing as they can't shoot now!


Sorry for the long post, but thought I would add my 2 cents, but it turned into my $2!

Wyches are not supposed to be killy. They are a great tarpit unit against terminators and ork nobs but don't do so well vs assault marines or khorne berserkers. They shouldn't take wych weapons (unless you are taking shardnets) as it just drives the cost of them up. Syren with an agoniser is all you need. Just like a hidden powerfist, she is your killy model in the unit. Don't expect them too kill much but they can put a hurting on most units with a few casualties.

lonekthx wrote:Wyches are not supposed to be killy. They are a great tarpit unit against terminators and ork nobs but don't do so well vs assault marines or khorne berserkers. They shouldn't take wych weapons (unless you are taking shardnets) as it just drives the cost of them up. Syren with an agoniser is all you need. Just like a hidden powerfist, she is your killy model in the unit. Don't expect them too kill much but they can put a hurting on most units with a few casualties.

On the other hand, I think shardnets are useless against a good player, wych weapons (especially hydra gauntlets) are quite useful, syrens (did you mean hexatrix?) with agonizers are....situationally useful, depending on your list.

Not to be argumentative, but I disagree with you.

Dashofpepper wrote:

lonekthx wrote:Wyches are not supposed to be killy. They are a great tarpit unit against terminators and ork nobs but don't do so well vs assault marines or khorne berserkers. They shouldn't take wych weapons (unless you are taking shardnets) as it just drives the cost of them up. Syren with an agoniser is all you need. Just like a hidden powerfist, she is your killy model in the unit. Don't expect them too kill much but they can put a hurting on most units with a few casualties.

On the other hand, I think shardnets are useless against a good player, wych weapons (especially hydra gauntlets) are quite useful, syrens (did you mean hexatrix?) with agonizers are....situationally useful, depending on your list.

Not to be argumentative, but I disagree
with you.

Right Hekatrix, I get them mixed up but it's essentially the same thing. Hydra gauntlets are decent at best, as they are still str 3 non-power weapon attacks coming in. Shardnets are actually useful vs units with multiple attacks at least, move the shardnet in first and your reducing the incoming attacks by at least 2. Granted it won't have an effect vs models with one 1 attack but then you just make sure you hit a sergeant or equiv with it. Razorflails are just garbage. Agonisers are your only reliable way to kill infantry in the unit. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me but I have found the agoniser to be a huge combat punch (especially in a unit with an agoniser equipped succubus) for power weapon attacks the unit wouldn't normally have. I will gladly give you my list if you'd like to see it.

Dashofpepper wrote:

lonekthx wrote:Wyches are not supposed to be killy. They are a great tarpit unit against terminators and ork nobs but don't do so well vs assault marines or khorne berserkers. They shouldn't take wych weapons (unless you are taking shardnets) as it just drives the cost of them up. Syren with an agoniser is all you need. Just like a hidden powerfist, she is your killy model in the unit. Don't expect them too kill much but they can put a hurting on most units with a few casualties.

On the other hand, I think shardnets are useless against a good player, wych weapons (especially hydra gauntlets) are quite useful, syrens (did you mean hexatrix?) with agonizers are....situationally useful, depending on your list.

Not to be argumentative, but I disagree with you.

i dont like any wych weapons.... Oh No, I disagree with dash!

Whereas I love shardnets! I like the added dimension to assaults of picking which models to eliminate attacks from. Bringing that power fist down to only 1 attack can make the difference in the combat results. It's also fun to do it to ICs and MCs.

Lelith and a unit of Bloodbrides with shardnets can be ridiculously fun. That's -4 A against a single model, but can usually be spaced out to take -8 A away from the unit. I've used it quite successfully against small units of assault terminators and thunderwolves, or to help a Talos dominate another MC (or two!). A 10 point weapon upgrade only needs to save a 12 point model once to feel worth it.

On my original 1.5k List my wych squads had 1 Hydra Gauntlet each.

I had three squads of those, mounted on raiders.

I traded Hydra Gauntlets for Shock Prowl+Torment Grenade Launcher and, suddenly, enemies were failing Pinning tests from exploded vehicles, i was winning battles by effectively one more and routing whole units with Liquifying mounted Haemonculus.