Should Traitor Guard get their own codex?

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**MechaEmperor7000**

Sometimes I wonder if you argue with me for the sake of arguing, especially since I was on your side this time.

**Kanluwen**

You were kind of all over the place and I missed any real 'You're so right Kan!', it was just collateral damage.

But all seriousness. I'd rather them take their time, finesse things out and get it 'right'.

Let's not have another Grey Inquisition Monkeys book.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I am honestly praying to buddha, Jesus, Tzeentch and the Flying Spaghetti monster for a Chaos Legions book fusing all three lists into one. It would be a great business investment now due to how Daemon Players will probably pick up some CSM units and vice versa, and both picking up stuff for LatD. However it might cause a huge balance issue, since it's effectively fusing the ultility of Daemons with the reliability and customization of Space Marines while having the numbers and tanks of the Guard.

**Kanluwen**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I am honestly praying to buddha, Jesus, Tzeentch and the Flying Spaghetti monster for a Chaos Legions book fusing all three lists into one. It would be a great business investment now due to how Daemon Players will probably pick up some CSM units and vice versa, and both picking up stuff for LatD. However it might cause a huge balance issue, since it's effectively fusing the utility of Daemons with the reliability and customization of Space Marines while having the numbers and tanks of the Guard.

Which, frankly, is why "Chaos Legions" shouldn't include the more 'military' cultists.

Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch don't want skilled warriors. They want devoted followers.

Khorne should have something like the Blood Pact, but I hesitate to do that simply because people don't seem to want 'Patron of Warrior Prowess and Honorable Combat' and instead want 'BLOOD!BLOOD!BLOOD!BLOOD!".

**The Zoat**

People here on Dakkadakka have already made a beta Latd list in the article section.

**Kanluwen**

Which is about as useful as a dog with a hat, considering there's a list available for free from Forge World.

**Lonecoon**

What I'd really like to see is hardbound codices that encompass the main forces.

Chaos: Daemons, CSM, Traitor Guard
Space Marines: BA, SW, DA, Vanilla, Salamanders, etc
Imperium: SOB, Guard, Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy

And Xenos would all get their own paper codex.

**Kanluwen**

Lonecoon wrote:What I'd really like to see is hardbound codices that encompass the main forces.

Chaos: Daemons, CSM, Traitor Guard
Space Marines: BA, SW, DA, Vanilla, Salamanders, etc
Imperium: SOB, Guard, Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy

Yeah...that's not gonna work well, at all. Why?

Who the hell is going to want to buy a $50-$60 book and transport it--when their force makes up 25% of the book?

There's already enough complaints about the Codices having fluff sections that "waste space".

You're suggesting a book the size of Imperial Armour: Volume 3(which is their biggest book and easily the size of the main rulebook and another half of the main rulebook) be required for anyone playing Space Marines or Imperial Guard.

And Xenos would all get their own paper codex.

Why? You can easily cram them all into one book like you're suggesting with the above three.
If the Imperial and Chaos players have to pay out the nose for their army book and deal with wasted space, the Xenos players can suffer too.

**Lonecoon**

The reason I suggest a hardbound codex for the forces is to add more choices to the players list. Instead of saying "Here's the Space Wolves codex, and here's the Blood Angels codex," you instead say "Here's special list adjustments for Space wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, etc." Rather than relying on Datasheets, you have a unified, diverse, and customizable codex.

Keep the paper ones, sure. Getting started with a smaller, more focues codex is much easier. But make available a single book that gives you a world of options to play with.

**Kanluwen**

Lonecoon wrote:The reason I suggest a hardbound codex for the forces is to add more choices to the players list. Instead of saying "Here's the Space Wolves codex, and here's the Blood Angels codex," you instead say "Here's special list adjustments for Space wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, etc." Rather than relying on Datasheets, you have a unified, diverse, and customizable codex.

You really don't though. You end up with a book that is just a compilation. It will more likely than not suffer from that fact.

I'm not sure why you're harping on the idea of Datasheets though. Apocalypse does something entirely different, it's an entirely different way to play.

Keep the paper ones, sure. Getting started with a smaller, more focused codex is much easier. But make available a single book that gives you a world of options to play with.

Again: it comes down to convenience. How many of the players do you think will be wanting to buy a "single book that gives you a world of options to play with"...when it's the size of an encyclopedia volume?

**G00fySmiley**

we don't need more human codexes

**Pacific**

kronk wrote:They already have a codex:

They were in IA5: Siege of Vraks. The 5 Edition Update pdf that can be found on the FW Website.

There is also an FAQ

Absolutely, the FW books (5, 6 or 7 depending on your taste in traitor).

GW's best kept secret, as evident by this poll.. :(

**svendrex**

Here is how I think you should be able to represent all of the forces of Chaos

1) Chaos Daemons keep their own book. It just needs a bit of a rework to make some more playable builds in it.

2) Chaos Space Marines are separated into 2 books.

a) Chaos Legions: (Black Legion, 1000 sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard).
-Similar to Grey Knights. ie. a more elite MEQ book where stuff costs more.
-Everything in it is dedicated to one of the 4 gods. (4 cult marines choices for troops, 4 types of Dreads, 4 types of Terminators, ect.)
-You can get god specific summoned daemons, but they are less powerful then the Codex: Chaos Daemon ones.

b) Chaos Renegades: (Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Lost and the Dammed)
-A combination of Horde units, MEQ units, Stealth/Ambush specialists, and artillery.
-Everything is Chaos Undivided, nothing is god specific.
-You can get summoned daemons, but they are NOT god specific.

3) Have options for Traitor Chapters in Codex: Space Marines
-Chapters like the Red Corsairs and the Relictors are Codex chapters that went bad. They might have access to "new" stuff like Razorbacks ect.
-Huron Blackheart as a special charater.
-include some options that only Loyalists can take, some that only Renegade chapters can take. (blessed/daemon weapons for example)
-two sets of ibrarian powers to choose from, based on whether you are Loyal or Renegade.

**stonned_astartes**

I think there sould just be 2 or 3 chaos dex's,
1.deamons
2.csm
3. gaurd, lost and the dammed, zombies etc etc
or
1. choas codex with marines and gaurd and some demons
2. deamons and warp stuff(lost and the dammed).
but i would deffently do a traitor gaurd army, if they were cheeper.

**Marthike**

If there is zombies then I am up for it. But would be cooler if there were other alien races in warhammer.

**Kanluwen**

Kanluwen wrote:Yes...and no.

What kind of 'Traitor Guard' are we referring to? Chaos Guard? Tau Guard? Eldar Happy Friend Guard?

Ideally, here's what I would do:
Step 1) Strike Chaos Daemons as their own army. Roll them in with CSM and 'Cultist Friendly' Guard Conscript equivalents to create a book called "Ruinous Powers".

Why? Because this serves two purposes. One: it creates a "Chaos Legions" book, with the major players of each of the Four Gods(and Undivided) being represented. This isn't just "Oh, your Nurgle Marines are awesome!". This is "Holy crap, that is an awesome Nurgle army. You've got Death Guard accompanying a Daemon Prince, Nurglings and Plaguebearers, Plague Zombies--everything that makes me think Nurgle!". The same can, of course, be done for the other three Powers. Discourage mixing and matching the Four Powers by having a kind of 'synergy' with all facets of your list being mono-God giving a bonus.

You can, of course, for Khorne and Black Legion have some more 'elite' Guard equivalents mixed in, alongside of mutants and the rabble scum that normally follow these kinds of things.

Step 2) Chaos Space Marines receives a facelift. Red Corsairs, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and the Fallen from the Dark Angels all come into play here. This book will focus on the less-Power oriented Renegades.
Here you would have: Formations like the Blood Pact as your 'core' of the force. Allow for an upgrade to have an Aspiring Champion CSM leading the group and you've got a fairly fluffy unit here.
HQ choice could be either a Guard styled leader or SM leader, with the list resembling the fantastic "Tyrant's Legion" list from IA9.

I'm not really sure what to call this book. I'd go with something like "Broken Loyalties" probably.

Mr Morden wrote:I would also like a addiitonal IG codex "Regiments of Renown" that would allow the proper creation of the cool regiments like Catachan,Tanith with all their special rules and fluff.

I hate to break this to you, but the 'special rules and fluff' for these regiments really doesn't translate well to the tabletop. The Catachans and Tanith, specifically, are famed for their stealth assaults and ambushes. To accurately represent this, you'd have to get a special rule saying you get to club your opponent over the head when his head is turned.

The 'best fit' for these guys is, and always really will be, a one-off Veteran unit upgrade.

And a proper Adeptus Mechanicus Codex would be awesome - maybe Forge world will fill in the gap in a forthcoming IA book as even I am getting bored with repeated Space Marine Codexes.

According to Forge World, they're not even sure how to do Adeptus Mechanicus to 'make everyone happy'. People have built it up over and over and over in their mind. There's no way it will please everyone.

I'll assume the part about "repeated Space Marine Codices" wasn't dealing with Forge World. IA9+10 are the first time they've done 'exclusively' Marine books.

Oh and Sisters of Battle, Demiurge, Pirate and Mercenaries one -with Eldar Corsairs, Kroot warbands, Freeboterz, Human mercs, etc.

Sisters of Battle are in the pipe. Demiurg are supposedly going to be done as part of the Tau, which isn't a surprise since they've been in the Tau's background for awhile.

Eldar Corsairs are getting an army list in IA11.
Kroot Warbands are kinda/sorta doable, Freebooterz as well.

Human mercs are something that are much like the Tanith+Catachans: something not really suited for the tabletop by and large as their own force.
They'd be something more like a special unit for Guard/Inquisition.

Reposting.

Why?

Because you don't need Daemons as their own book. Most players didn't like the choice, and quite frankly it's silly.

**biccat**

The Imperium has what...8 different army books? With 6 of those dedicated towards Space Marines.

I say cut out at least 3 of the SM books and move from 2 chaos books to 3 chaos books (net loss of 2 books):

1) Legions of Chaos - Includes daemons, full of special rules for the various legions.

2) Chaos Renegades - renegade chapters, essentially Black Legion 'successors.'

3) Forces of Chaos - Daemons and traitor guard, regular CSM available as allies.

**stonned_astartes**

biccat wrote:The Imperium has what...8 different army books? With 6 of those dedicated towards Space Marines.

I say cut out at least 3 of the SM books and move from 2 chaos books to 3 chaos books (net loss of 2 books):

1) Legions of Chaos - Includes daemons, full of special rules for the various legions.

2) Chaos Renegades - renegade chapters, essentially Black Legion 'successors.'

3) Forces of Chaos - Daemons and traitor guard, regular CSM available as allies.

yes!
oh and does anyone know when the fw pdf came out???

**Kanluwen**

biccat wrote:The Imperium has what...8 different army books? With 6 of those dedicated towards Space Marines.

And each one of the various Marine codices (at least the recent ones) play relatively differently.
Black Templars and Dark Angels are the only two that are very 'meh' right now. But they suffer from them trying to essentially make them "close but not close".

Which is, frankly, the issue with Templars and both flavors of Angel. They're Codex--but not.

If it were up to me, I'd cut Marines to three books.
Angels of Death--Codex Chapters. Ultramarines and their Successors along with the Imperial Fists and their Successors. This gives you a 'Codex' force which would be the idea of 'jack of all trades'. A few formations could be done as 'specialties' like Black Templars being doable with a character etc.
Angels of Vengeance--Minorly divergent Chapters like the Dark Angels, along with Raven Guard and Iron Hands+their Successors. Think of this as the 'ranged specialty' codex. Dreadnoughts, Terminators, specialty Scouts, et al. Each Chapter gets its own little list of specialties or can be used as framework to represent a 'unique' formation.
Angels of Fury--Majorly divergent Chapters. Space Wolves, White Scars, Blood Angels, and their like. Think of this as the 'close combat' oriented codex and give each Chapter its own list.

I say cut out at least 3 of the SM books and move from 2 chaos books to 3 chaos books (net loss of 2 books):
1) Legions of Chaos - Includes daemons, full of special rules for the various legions.

2) Chaos Renegades - renegade chapters, essentially Black Legion 'successors.'

3) Forces of Chaos - Daemons and traitor guard, regular CSM available as allies.

So basically you take the idea I had, but just make it more ridiculously complex and do exactly what you're complaining about the Imperium having.

Seriously. There's no reason for Legions to not include the Black Legion. Chaos Undivided is still Chaos.

Calling Renegades 'Black Legion Successors' is kind of silly, since many of the Renegades actually are devoted to specific Powers. Traitor Guard is, once again, such a vague term and it's often misused. There's very few actual entire Traitor Guard formations--but many of them throw their lot in with the renegades and Chaos Undivided, not Legions/Powers.

**kronk**

stonned_astartes wrote:oh and does any1 know when the fw pdf came out???

Don't use any1 for anyone, please.

The pdf to update the IA:5 army list to 5th edition came out last year, if I recall correctly. However, IA:5 was published in 2007.

Pacific wrote:
Absolutely, the FW books (5, 6 or 7 depending on your taste in traitor).

GW's best kept secret, as evident by this poll.. :(

What do you mean "Depending on your taste in traitor?" I don't have books 5-7, just the pdf for book 5. Is there an additional army list in books 6 and 7 that's not on the PDF?

**stonned_astartes**

Sorry, have edited it. So that means quite a few of the rules will now be out of date, or is it just a case of useing the old ig codex, do you think?

**dave_salmon**

On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

**kronk**

stonned_astartes wrote:So that means quite a few of the rules will now be out of date, or is it just a case of useing the old ig codex, do you think?

I don't have the IA 5, but the intent of the pdf that I linked was to bring the army list from IA5 up-to-date with 5th edition. So, with the pdf, you have an up-to-date army list. It references some units in the IG codex, but otherwise, it's a stand-alone army list.

I'd like to know if IA 6 and 7 add to it. I've been going back and forth about adding IA 5-7 on my list for my next Forge World order.

**Kanluwen**

dave_salmon wrote:On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

Then do it. Sons of Sek and Blood Pact are Guard, period.

The only variation comes from a few armored vehicles which were relatively rare or deployed for specialist occasions.

**dave_salmon**

Sorry, what I meant was I'd like some variation in the rules to make them more.....'chaosy'. I have considered just having them look heretical but I'm a fluff lover and would like some interesting rules as well.

One can dream...

But on a serious note, I want to get to grips with my first army before I go for a second one!

**stonned_astartes**

Kanluwen wrote:
dave_salmon wrote:On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

Then do it. Sons of Sek and Blood Pact are Guard, period.

The only variation comes from a few armored vehicles which were relatively rare or deployed for specialist occasions.

not really. if you read the one when they go to geroun? for the 1st time, there brutish, enhanced(mutated) blood pact, tho in the new book they are more like gaurd i do have to admitt.

**dave_salmon**

I'd love to have the Incubators (The tall gaurds with the grafted vox grills), the glyphs and the wire wolves!!!!

**stonned_astartes**

I think the 'mapper' that dude on stillts they use to find them in the junggle would be a amazing fig.

**Kanluwen**

stonned_astartes wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
dave_salmon wrote:On one hand I'd love a 'proper' set of rules for IG but on the other I don't think my wallet can take the hit of another army right now...

I've been yearning to do a Sons of Sek or Blood Pact army

Then do it. Sons of Sek and Blood Pact are Guard, period.

The only variation comes from a few armored vehicles which were relatively rare or deployed for specialist occasions.

not really. if you read the one when they go to Gereon? for the 1st time, there brutish, enhanced(mutated) blood pact, tho in the new book they are more like gaurd i do have to admitt.

First: Please, use spellcheck. I can't speak for everyone else, but having to reread posts to figure out exactly what someone is trying to say is irksome. You don't get extra points for being first. You can take the time to make a coherent post.

Secondly:
You're referring to the "Hunters". Which were Chaos Astartes, not Blood Pact or Sons of Sek.

Blood Pact have always been fairly military, at least once they were 'properly' fleshed out. The fact that the Ghosts in "Straight Silver" considered the Blood Pact to be a deciding factor like the intervention of the Crusade forces on Aexe-Cardinal.

The Sons of Sek, however, are a different breed entirely. The entire reason they were created was so that Magister Sek could have his own loyal "Blood Pact"--but with more of the strategic thinking that the Guard utilized incorporated into it.

**IronChaos**

I would like them to be in the CSM codex, as unit choices (something similar to the Imperial Armour datasheets). But it could be nice too to have their own codex.