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Kanluwen wrote:

Secondly:
You're referring to the "Hunters". Which were Chaos Astartes, not Blood Pact or Sons of Sek.

Blood Pact have always been fairly military, at least once they were 'properly' fleshed out. The fact that the Ghosts in "Straight Silver" considered the Blood Pact to be a deciding factor like the intervention of the Crusade forces on Aexe-Cardinal.

The Sons of Sek, however, are a different breed entirely. The entire reason they were created was so that Magister Sek could have his own loyal "Blood Pact"--but with more of the strategic thinking that the Guard utilized incorporated into it.

No i am not. re-read the bit were the resistance atacks the bastian. Or alternitively in the book were they return to greoron were crid's kid is fighting them. they are over developed, hulkinng and mucsleular.

stonned_astartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Secondly:
You're referring to the "Hunters". Which were Chaos Astartes, not Blood Pact or Sons of Sek.

Blood Pact have always been fairly military, at least once they were 'properly' fleshed out. The fact that the Ghosts in "Straight Silver" considered the Blood Pact to be a deciding factor like the intervention of the Crusade forces on Aexe-Cardinal.

The Sons of Sek, however, are a different breed entirely. The entire reason they were created was so that Magister Sek could have his own loyal "Blood Pact"--but with more of the strategic thinking that the Guard utilized incorporated into it.

No I am not. re-read the bit were the resistance attacks the bastion.

And you're still wrong.

The attack on the bastion in "Traitor General" had several different forms of mutants involved. They may not have been Astartes, but they weren't "Traitor Guard" or really anything outside of a throwback to the old Beastmen.

However, what you're neglecting is that the majority of the 'House Guard' that were there were plain humans. There were also the Sons of Sek.

They were described as "intimidating" but that doesn't really mean anything. The art I've got on them from the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book has them at the size of a Guardsman, just a bit more heavily muscled which can easily be explained away as they're recruited from Chaos held worlds.

Or alternatively in the book were they return to Gereon

"Armour of Contempt".

where criid's kid

Dalin.

is fighting them. they are over developed.

They also weren't Blood Pact or Sons of Sek. They were generic mutant rabble.

Fair enough. I lay down and surender.
still think a gaurd codex with some mutents, demons and marines in it would be sick.

The Praetorians from Mechanicum were Heavily augmented human guards, as heavily as skitarii, but non-mind wiped so that they have strategy, adaptibility, and free will. Super-soldiers basically (but not like Astartes)

thay need there own codex

I think they should be (to an extent) in the CSM codex.
Maybe having some units unlocked (like henchmen) by certain HQ choices etc.
I think a whole codex of their own would be a bit silly, as they would be too much like standard Guardsmen. But just adding loads of Guard that can be available in any number in any Chaos list would make CSM too different, so something like the henchmen (and Basalisk for Iron warriors etc) would make sense in my eyes.

I saw a post earlier in the thread, and I'm too lazy to go back and quote it But basically, it said there should be a LatD codex for any Chaos aligned "guard" forces, and then a Traitor codex for regiments which had just decided to rule their own planet or allied with an occupying force such as Tau or Eldar, maybe even Orks. But yes, I'd like to see a different codex.

Repeat of earlier post: No, not at all. Not only do they not need their own dex, but GW needs to eliminate a few dexes i.e. all the different types of vanilla marines so that they can focus on dex updates and maybe a mechanicus dex.

No Mechanicus dex. Seriously. This is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Mechanicus don't 'work'.

I've also outlined exactly how they could 'eliminate a few dexes'. But of course, the non-Imperial players won't be happy until everything's in one book. No matter if it doesn't fit--if it's "vanilla-esque IT NEEDS TO BE IN ONE BOOK!!11!!!".

Kanluwen wrote:No Mechanicus dex. Seriously. This is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Mechanicus don't 'work'.

I've also outlined exactly how they could 'eliminate a few dexes'. But of course, the non-Imperial players won't be happy until everything's in one book. No matter if it doesn't fit--if it's "vanilla-esque IT NEEDS TO BE IN ONE BOOK!!11!!!".

Well nothing is accomplished by having dexes for BA, DA, BT, and vanilla marines. The SW sure, since they're still at legion strength, and the GK sure, since they are totally different, but other than that this is just wasting GW resources that could be spent updating their codices and getting this Mechanicus dex that is more needed than you could imagine.

Haters gonna Hate. Especially Kanluwen.

No, seriously. You tell me why "getting a Mechanicus dex" is 'needed'. And please for feth's sake, stop with this "haters gonna hate" crap. I don't hate the Mechanicus.

I hate this constant complaining that the Mechanicus "needs a codex or GW hates its fanbase!".

Are the Mechanicus cool?
There's no doubt that they are. But you know what else is?
The Kasrkin. Does this mean they need their own codex?
Of course not.
The Raven Guard are also cool, does that mean they should be having their own codex?
Again: of course not.

Cool does not necessarily mean "it works as a Codex". The Mechanicus book would require so much overlap with practically every book to really satisfy the fanbase that it would make the complaints about "vanilla Marines" seem tame.

With that said:
Rather than continuously posting these ridiculous ideas of "this NEEDS to be done"--try making some suggestions that aren't off the cuff of your sleeves. Go right ahead and build off my example on the previous page. I don't care.

But it's time to be realistic. Mechanicus are very unlikely to happen. And it's not because GW hates them. It's because no matter what, if it's done people won't be happy with the result.

They are valid army choice.

Kanluwen wrote:No, seriously. You tell me why "getting a Mechanicus dex" is 'needed'. And please for feth's sake, stop with this "haters gonna hate" crap. I don't hate the Mechanicus.

I hate this constant complaining that the Mechanicus "needs a codex or GW hates its fanbase!".

Are the Mechanicus cool?
There's no doubt that they are. But you know what else is?
The Kasrkin. Does this mean they need their own codex?
Of course not.
The Raven Guard are also cool, does that mean they should be having their own codex?
Again: of course not.

Cool does not necessarily mean "it works as a Codex". The Mechanicus book would require so much overlap with practically every book to really satisfy the fanbase that it would make the complaints about "vanilla Marines" seem tame.

With that said:
Rather than continuously posting these ridiculous ideas of "this NEEDS to be done"--try making some suggestions that aren't off the cuff of your sleeves. Go right ahead and build off my example on the previous page. I don't care.

But it's time to be realistic. Mechanicus are very unlikely to happen. And it's not because GW hates them. It's because no matter what, if it's done people won't be happy with the result.

We can atleast agree on two things:

1. AdMech aren't likely to get the Codex they deserve
and
2. People may not like an AdMech book if it came out, simply because AdMech are too awesome, and no matter how wicked the Codex, it would not, could not, do them justice.

But I think if they came out, it WOULD work, because they would reflect a specific style of play, dissimilar to all the others,

I.E. Unbelievably high saves, FNP across the board, and excessive firepower. To represent them like this, they would either have to be a super-elite army, or have a fatal weakness, like Tau CC, or orky accuracy. Maybe they would have a malfunction SR or something?

I want my Necron Codex, not another update or expansion to an army that already receives plenty of attention and updates. But don't get me wrong, I love the guard, I'm actually starting an army just now.

6 (SIX!!) Marine codexes (plus bad marines) and 1 (ONE!) codex for humanity.

I think we can support 2.

It's not really "can we support it".

It's "can it be done without being kinda crummy or Grey Knighted".

Kanluwen wrote:
The Raven Guard are also cool, does that mean they should be having their own codex?

Clearly the answer here is "HELL YES!"

Also, tempers people, tempers!

Repeat of my previous post:

Return to the original post!! We were talking about if Traitor Guard should have their own codex. And I said: they should be unit choices in the next CSM codex, and should be something like Imperial Armour: The Siege of Vracks. In there, a simple generic Renegade Militia squad could be a heavy weapons squad or a cannon-fodder unit depending on what you give them.
As I see it, this could solve the issue: we Chaos players get our beloved Traitor Guard :3 and there's no Traitor Guard unnecesary codex. This doesn't mean I would like such a codex, but I prefer to merge them with CSM.

No, they don't need a dex. Maybe a WD special, or if they're lucky an IA thing, but no, we don't need to disturb the writers who (I pray) are very, very busy updating codices. If we start adding all kinds of IG codices, we'll just be starting down the slippery slope the SMs took-getting 6 codices.

Kanluwen wrote:If it were up to me, I'd cut Marines to three books.
Angels of Death--Codex Chapters. Ultramarines and their Successors along with the Imperial Fists and their Successors. This gives you a 'Codex' force which would be the idea of 'jack of all trades'. A few formations could be done as 'specialties' like Black Templars being doable with a character etc.
Angels of Vengeance--Minorly divergent Chapters like the Dark Angels, along with Raven Guard and Iron Hands+their Successors. Think of this as the 'ranged specialty' codex. Dreadnoughts, Terminators, specialty Scouts, et al. Each Chapter gets its own little list of specialties or can be used as framework to represent a 'unique' formation.
Angels of Fury--Majorly divergent Chapters. Space Wolves, White Scars, Blood Angels, and their like. Think of this as the 'close combat' oriented codex and give each Chapter its own list.

So you basically took the idea I had and applied it to Space Marines, but made it needlessly more complex and did exactly what you complained about regarding my proposed Chaos lists.

Space Wolves are still Space Marines.

Which is why Space Wolves get put into Angels of Fury.

Kanluwen wrote:Which is why Space Wolves get put into Angels of Fury.

The difference between the Space Wolves and vanilla marines are no more than the difference between two individual Chaos warbands. In fact, significantly less different than two Renegade chapters.

The difference between a renegade chapter and one of the god-specific Legions is so far beyond the individual differences between codex or nearly-codex Marines that to defend the rationale for multiple marine codices and a single Chaos codex as anything other than marketing is laughable.

For the tri-codex idea, I think the Imperial fists should be in the ranged-specialty section. Being siege-masters, they would most definitely have a...preference for long-range high-power weapons. They are the MOST specialized in long-range warfare of any vanilla marines.

How are raven guard specialized in ranged warfare? They are VERY CC with their lightning claws and ninja theme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@biccat, the difference is BIG, in that they are still a legion.

Personally, I like the idea of an all inclusive Chaos Codex. Daemons Chaos Space Marines And Traitor Guard all in one book. I don't know about the rest of you, but it makes since to me.

im2randomghgh wrote:For the tri-codex idea, I think the Imperial fists should be in the ranged-specialty section. Being siege-masters, they would most definitely have a...preference for long-range high-power weapons. They are the MOST specialized in long-range warfare of any vanilla marines.

How are raven guard specialized in ranged warfare? They are VERY CC with their lightning claws and ninja theme.

Er, no.
That's Shrike's specialty.

The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also say that Imperial Fists are defensive siege specialists, but they're still as 'Codex' as it comes.

Too many imperium codexes, make more xenos!

kronk wrote:

Pacific wrote:
Absolutely, the FW books (5, 6 or 7 depending on your taste in traitor).

GW's best kept secret, as evident by this poll.. :(

What do you mean "Depending on your taste in traitor?" I don't have books 5-7, just the pdf for book 5. Is there an additional army list in books 6 and 7 that's not on the PDF?

Yes, you do get some extra stuff with books 6 and 7.

Book 6 focuses on Khorne - so you have the option for the force to be lead by a Khorne (marine) champion as well as khorne berserkers as an elites choice. There are also a slightly downgraded ogryn (5pts less with T5), 'beastmen' as a quite cheap but effective melee unit, mutant rabble (slightly better than workers rabble from the pdf), and hounds of Xaphan. A guy at my club ran this list but as a 'standard' (not khorne) chaos renegade list and it was quite good fun, especially fighting against beastmen in 40k again

Book 7 features Nurgle. Pretty much follows the same template, so it lets you take a nurgle marine champion as HQ if you want. The renegade psyker has nurgle themed powers. You can also take a 'plague zombie horde' (6pts each, T4 with FNP!), plague marines and plague ogryns as elite choices.

There might be a few other differences, but I think that is it for the most part. I think all of the wargear, infantry and heavy support options are the same across all 3 books (except the 'blight drones' you get for Nurgle)

Pacific wrote: a bunch of cool information!

Thanks!

I guess I have to consider buying books 5-7 now.

That would be a good aniversary gift from my wife this month. "Honey, I'd like 3 books about humans that turned to evil gods for salvation to celebrate our love and marriage." "Well, it is our 13th anniversary..."

Kanluwen wrote:The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.

Not according to the Index Astartes article they don't.

Baragash wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Raven Guard are very much like the Dark Angels, in that they're specialized in precision assaults and use firebases made up of Tactical and Devastator Squads as a kind of 'bulwark' to lure in the enemy before slamming them with assault specialists.

Not according to the Index Astartes article they don't.

Then I'd suggest reading something more recent. Like...well, everything.

When acting in a defensive capacity, they work exactly like I stated.

When acting in an offensive capacity, they utilize Tactical Squads and Scout Squads to probe the weaknesses of the enemy formations before launching Drop Pod assaults to slam home the attack.