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I'm not sure about Ushabti. I think they're a little pricey. While their great bows are stupid good, the unit is only BS2. With a necrotecht around, they got a regen(6) save and an armor (5) save though. Presumably all your constructs will be pooled around him instead of the banner, as they already get -1 to crumble and have solid LD.

With their GW and decent WS, they make pretty good attacking units. I wouldn't worry too much about them being slow, as they got 3 wounds, armor, regen (with necrotect), good WS and T4. With 3 Str6 attacks and Stomp, they can do a lot of dmg. Putting an incantation of Protection on them would give them armor (5), ward (5), regen (6), making them one hell of a tough unit to hurt--but I guess only ward would be used cuz it trumps regen.

I can see giving them an extra weapon if you're going to also cast the KB spell on them regularly. Because they MAY be able to put out a greater number of KB attacks (at higher WS) than most equivalent groups of skeletons. Though it depends on what frontage you can get together.

But no, at this time I can't really see trading for the GW. Especially when it comes at almost no cost (they are already I1).

Thing is, S6 via GW (thus ASL) is still a pretty big loss over S6 vanilla I3. You use to strike before Great Weapons (as opposed to simul / initiative order now), as well as a good deal of slower units / monsters (I2 Ogres, I1 Trolls, etcetera).

In the very least, compare the difference S6 AHW would make versus S4 AHW.

Do the Tomb Kings have the ability to magic themselves into combat like they used to be able to?

Don't forget about the S6 Stomp they lost as well. I think this is a case of "Trygonism", where they want to sell the new snake cav models, so they need to make those the best option.

No where in the book is the general required to be something other than the heirophant, so I think that opens up a lot of new options (and makes the King a lot less attractive). I also think Khalida is specifically ommitted from having "Thy Will Be Done", as its not listed in her rules yet Setra lists it. I don't know why, but they nerfed the bejesus out of her.

BuFFo wrote:Do the Tomb Kings have the ability to magic themselves into combat like they used to be able to?

no

Sorta. The old one targetted one unit and it could make a move--including into combat. The new one targets ALL units in 12" and can make a move per the Remaining Moves sub-phase. You can also extend it to 24". So it affects quite a bit more.

Well, I am selling off my TK. It is a completely different army now just because of that change, and that basically killed it for me. I was looking for a reason to get into 8th edition, but an over powered magic phase, coupled with the TK magic lore just being a boring copy of any lore, plus the loss of the charge spell did it for me.

I'll wait to see what GW does to my Ogres before I jump back into fantasy.

I actually think they did a good job with TKs.

the lore transitioned quite well into a normal lore.


Khalida didn't get nerfed so much as got changed. previously, you paid to buy here and then paid upgrade your archers. now one unit of archers gots BS3 and poison for 'free'. put her in a large unit of archers(40+) and watch them reap many casualities. Volly fire and the multi-shot spell are the keys to making it devestating. you can get 70 shots with a unit of 50 if you get the Multi shot spell off.

70 shots nets 35 hits of which about 12 will be poisoned.

another 23 will be rolling to wound as normal. T3 will be taking about 12 wounds. against T4, 8 wounds. 4 against anything higher.


so a unit of 50 Skeleton archers with Khalida will reliably put out 24 wounds againt T3, 20 against T4, and 16 against T5+

Yah, I can't believe anyone thinks TK are weaker than they were. They got massively more options. Their magic was bound to get converted to "real" magic, as it was too weird having multiple systems. I bet a bazillion dollars that Gutt Magic will get converted to a regular lore as well. If they give them non-"fat" models, people will love them.

I think TK are great. Just the old models are doofy and I personally have a little trouble with throw-away units. Even rezzable ones.

Yes, I'd be surprised if Gut Magic doesn't become a Lore. GW are trying to avoid army specific rules as much as possible these days.

In reference to the size of the Skeletons, I bought some Necropolis Knights yesterday and compared the Tomb Guard riders to some VC Skeletons I have. The latter is noticeably smaller, so bang goes my idea of using VC for rank and file. I had hoped the newer TK models would match the VC "thinner bones" approach, but sadly not.

DukeRustfield wrote:Yah, I can't believe anyone thinks TK are weaker than they were. They got massively more options. Their magic was bound to get converted to "real" magic, as it was too weird having multiple systems. I bet a bazillion dollars that Gutt Magic will get converted to a regular lore as well. If they give them non-"fat" models, people will love them.

I think TK are great. Just the old models are doofy and I personally have a little trouble with throw-away units. Even rezzable ones.

While that is likely, Gutmagic acts almost completely like a normal lore in that you use power dice to cast it and follow all the casting restrictions.


the only difference is the unique miscast chart and the fact the buffs arn't defined as any particular type of spell(and as such are stackable over multiple turns from a single caster)


they will probably get rid of the Miscast table and make the spells harder to cast.

then Toothcracker will become +3T and Stubborn. Augment

Bullgorger will be +3 Str. Augment

Trollguts will be the same, but an Augment.


they will probably add a hex spell or something. Butchers likely will keep loremaster.

I can't see Butchers keeping Loremaster, for the same reason Liche Priests lost Lore Master.

And while Khalida makes one unit notably more powerful now, it's at the cost of providing no benefit to other units in turn. Two units with poisoned shots will put down the same amount of poisoned hits / turn (on average) as a single unit with poisoned shots firing twice. Khalida looks to have become a bigger "Eggs in one basket" character, turning away from an army-wide moderate improvement to one of your units getting a notable one at the cost of everything else being un-changed (beyond possibly the bonus to leadership should things start crumbling).

I don't think Ushabti were dropped to S4(6) and one wound regen / casting because they wanted to sell new models (otherwise, GW'd be leaving bow-armed Ushabti as conversion-only, and they'd give Stalkers / Knights a mean to regen multi-wounds / turn from the Lore). I think it's just a general GW cock-up of "How do we fix a stat decrease? I know! Let's give them a high strength no save attack!" without realizing WHFB isn't 40K with the answer to "Decrease one thing" being "Give them something else to kill high toughness high save models". 33% hit chance is nice, as is a unit of Bolt Throwers, but the fact that they're 143% the price of an OnG Bolt Thrower with three less points of toughness and one less BS (albeit without Slipshod) doesn't exactly make them look too hot for BT-style purposes. Maybe incanting a unit to double-shoot, then you're looking at 150pt unit essentially being (if at long range) 6 BT's at a discount, but even then you're only somewhat starting to make up your points, and that's with a buff spell and hoping nobody sneezes at your T4 5+ save BTs.

AHW doesn't work too well with Ushabti because of S4. It's not terrible, 4 S4 attacks / model at WS4 (and I3, big boost over skeleton initiative). However, well, that's literally the same amount of S4 attacks as a similar frontage of Tomb Guard. Who're cheaper, and have Killing Blow, can either have a better save or upgrade to S5 (oh, and can have an attached King / Prince to make a higher WS too), and can restore more than one wound per spell cast near them / on them.

M5's nice, yes, but... (and forgive me if I'm wrong, don't have the new TK book in front of me) +1 Movement Banner. Assuming you were looking at a six-big or larger Ushabti unit for flank running, you're still not looking at a price hike for Tomb Guard over Ushabti. They need to lose more models before they stop negating ranks, too. Tomb Guard technically get a few less attacks when compared to the Ushabti, when you include Stomp... but I'd say the increased odds at retaining a Rank Bonus (potentially one of +2 or +3 instead of just +1), as well as the presence of a standard, more than make up for the 6 auto-hit S4 attacks.

Just think Ushabti are a bit highly priced for what they do. Their old price was high as well (65pts, I believe [again, out of house so books aren't in front of me]), but that was pretty moderate when put next to others of their unit type (5pts more than a River Troll at the time, and at that point I could pretty much promise you someone would take an Ushabti over a River Troll if they had the choice of both unless they really needed to bank on Regen). Now, 50pts is good and all... but it's still five points more than a River / Stone Troll, without the base S6 as well. Much iffier about whether they're worth the extra points when put side-to-side now.

In the very least, should have kept S5 on the Ushabti. Then there'd be a bit of competition versus stuff like Tomb Guard, as then it's S4 KB v S5, in some cases the S5 much more useful (See: Orcs / Savage Orcs, Skaven, Empire, several varieties of Elves) / worth lingering over than the KB, and other times the KB worth picking out (Chaos Warriors = big example). Give Ushabti a slight strength increase, that's it, and they become much more worth considering.

TKs didn't really have Lore Master because they really didn't have magic per say.


and the fluff behind Ogres supports them having loremaster as Gutmagic is actually the direct intervention of the Great Maw rather then the Butcher actually drawing upon the Winds of magic. the Butcher is a conduit of the Maws power.

Where Khalida took it in the shorts is how many rules she lost while retaining largely the same point cost.

What she lost:
Army wide poison upgrade
no move as side effect from bound item
One IF smiting incantation a turn
multiple wounds in CC
Regeneration

What she gained:
One unit of skeletons she is with gets +1 BS and poison
Slight (15ish?) decrease in points.

She took the nerfbat jailhouse broomstick style. Rest of the book is moderately good, but no real standouts. I think the strongest thing in it is (still) the Tomb Guard and skeleton archers.

All these reasons are why I sold off my TK. It's not that I think they are worse or not competitive under the new book, it's the wholesale changes to my favorite units and the unique magic that I enjoyed playing. The new models are great looking, but they aren't from the army that I played for years and enjoyed. I just hope they don't mess up my Dwarfs or make my High Elves even worse (I don't like playing Teclis as the only way to play at a tourney that has a chance).

Also, why is Arkhan the Black even in the TK book? He's the lieutenant of Nagash and really has no place there. That's like putting Morathi in the High Elves' book, makes as much sense. Or why not put the queen of Lamia in there too? The vampires started with her and she killed Khalida so she should be right next to Arkhan's entry.

Tomb King wrote:
Arkhan the black is considered to be both a Tomb King and a Liche High Priest, this means he could be the hierophant and the general.

Arkhan the black is a level 5 wizard because of his book. The rules state that your highest wizard has to be your hierophant, so any army arkhan is included in makes him the hierophant by default. sad.gif

Just wanted to point out that Arkhan can in fact never be the Hierophant, because he can only select spells from the Lore of Death and the Hierophant must select the Lore of Nehekhara.
Basically if you want to take him you'll need at least one other Liche Priest in your army.

The only problem with incantations, and I wish they could have worked in 8th is that they would be incredibly broken.

Tomb kings can one/two dice incantations all day, and even with a level 4 you cant dice off with them because a 1 or a 2 is an auto fail.

GMR wrote:
Just wanted to point out that Arkhan can in fact never be the Hierophant, because he can only select spells from the Lore of Death and the Hierophant must select the Lore of Nehekhara.
Basically if you want to take him you'll need at least one other Liche Priest in your army.

There is a snippet in Arkhan's entry in the Army List that says he can be the Hierophant.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

GMR wrote:
Just wanted to point out that Arkhan can in fact never be the Hierophant, because he can only select spells from the Lore of Death and the Hierophant must select the Lore of Nehekhara.
Basically if you want to take him you'll need at least one other Liche Priest in your army.

There is a snippet in Arkhan's entry in the Army List that says he can be the Hierophant.

Oh wow, just checked and there it is, must've missed that!

Yah he can be hiero. Khalida is 55pts cheaper than she once was.

I do think that she is worth it, even if she didn't drop in price.


in a LARGE skeleton unit she becomes devestating as my math above showed. T3 models are looking at 24 wounds a turn average(possably more ) and T4+ is still looking at alot of wounds.

I think the only SCs that might be worth taking are Khatep, Rhamotep, Nekaph, and possibly Apophas.

Settra is a beast, but with him you're dropping 725 points at 3k to get him and lvl 4 Priest. Khalida is overpriced and underpowered. I'm not impressed with Arkhan, at least not on foot.

Brotherjanus wrote:
Also, why is Arkhan the Black even in the TK book? He's the lieutenant of Nagash and really has no place there. That's like putting Morathi in the High Elves' book, makes as much sense. Or why not put the queen of Lamia in there too? The vampires started with her and she killed Khalida so she should be right next to Arkhan's entry.

The fluff for it makes sense. He's too powerful for Settra to ignore or to delay his plans of world conquest by attacking. On the flip side, Arkhan knows that the only way for him to continue unliving is to have an alliance/non-aggression pact with the Tomb Kings where he's willing to help them out instead of be a thorn in their side. Basically, he got a better job offer.

It serves them both. Settra gets a powerful ally, Arkhan gets to not die again.

Potential Error/bad rules writing.

The 2nd to last sentence on ETBS says: Only Characters that have ETBS can join units with ETBS.

Ok Cool

Prince Apophas is the only character that has ETBS naturally
He can't join units.

uhhh.

Ok, we'll I'll toss a herald on a chariot and have him join a unit, like a unit of stalkers, or snake-riders.

No, wait, Characters in Chariots can't join units, and "Tomb Kings Rode to war" only allows for Characters in chariots to join units of chariots..

ummm.

Ok, so All of my heroes count as infantry, they can all be buried... but any other unit I may choose to put them with, they have a different base size... meaning they can be picked out with shooting, slow my units down.

Really?

Amaya wrote:I think the only SCs that might be worth taking are Khatep, Rhamotep, Nekaph, and possibly Apophas.

Ramhotep is a hidden gem. Combine his Master Artisan rule with Necropolis Knights and see what you get

Wondering: How do the magic items compare to Warhammer Armies: Orcs and Goblins?
Is there the same number? Are they still following the extremely high pricing and limited scope model?
Or have they already started item creep?

Da Boss wrote:Wondering: How do the magic items compare to Warhammer Armies: Orcs and Goblins?
Is there the same number? Are they still following the extremely high pricing and limited scope model?
Or have they already started item creep?

There is only like 8 magic items and some are less then worthy of taking up a spot. As for attaching models/characters to a unit that comes from below can you combo with the banner of hidden dead to use it?

Magic items are about the same compared to OnG, except slightly more useful overall (Only the 50pt weapon, Goblin-variety magic banners, and Shrunken Head were really considerable in OnG, and from what I saw in the TK book last Tuesday only the Sands banner was really / notably bad).

And yeah, Khalida got hit hard with the special rules she lost. Which is odd, because some of them were related to the fluff of her. Either way, it should be repeated - once more - that the difference between one big unit with poison and double-shoot is little better than... two units with poison, let alone two units with poison and double-shoot as well.

Basically, she has potential to be a beast, yes. However, she didn't get an upgrade. Quite readily visible, she had a downgrade. She, essentially, got the Deathmaster treatment, all that's missing now is a very large profile new model to go with it and she's good.

Minsc wrote:Magic items are about the same compared to OnG, except slightly more useful overall (Only the 50pt weapon, Goblin-variety magic banners, and Shrunken Head were really considerable in OnG, and from what I saw in the TK book last Tuesday only the Sands banner was really / notably bad).

And yeah, Khalida got hit hard with the special rules she lost. Which is odd, because some of them were related to the fluff of her. Either way, it should be repeated - once more - that the difference between one big unit with poison and double-shoot is little better than... two units with poison, let alone two units with poison and double-shoot as well.

Basically, she has potential to be a beast, yes. However, she didn't get an upgrade. Quite readily visible, she had a downgrade. She, essentially, got the Deathmaster treatment, all that's missing now is a very large profile new model to go with it and she's good.

I disagree.

I've said this somewhere else on this forum, but it bears repeating.

Last edition, I paid 270 points before command for a unit of 30 skeletons that started on my line.

How much would you pay for a unit that can be in your opponents war-machine line on turn 2?

All told, The Herald, and the unit, with full command will run you 335 for the Herald on a horse, or 45 more points to toss him on a chariot. Seems like a hell of a bargain to me Minsc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
--Especially when considering that not only does the Herald allow you to re-roll your crumble, but he also subtracts 1 from the crumble result..

Huge IMO.

Ragnar4 wrote:I disagree.

I've said this somewhere else on this forum, but it bears repeating.

Last edition, I paid 270 points before command for a unit of 30 skeletons that started on my line.

How much would you pay for a unit that can be in your opponents war-machine line on turn 2?

Depends, if using Incantations with Chariots you could very possibly be in there Turn 1, engaged. Vanguard, Regular Move, My Will Be Done / Incantation for another 8+2D6", covers a grand total of 30-40" before including 12" deployment. Heck, single Prince mounted on a Chariot could quite conceivably get it done.

Also, as a note, I apologize if it's not "They Come from Below" or whatever the rule's name is. I looked only a few minutes at the magic items, and when I asked staff / GW goers Tuesday they said it works the same way.

Ragnar4 wrote:All told, The Herald, and the unit, with full command will run you 335 for the Herald on a horse, or 45 more points to toss him on a chariot. Seems like a hell of a bargain to me Minsc.

Wait... doesn't it come in the opponent's war machine line Turn 2, and start getting to charge Turn 3? Or can "Comes from Below" come in Turn 1 now?

Ragnar4 wrote:--Especially when considering that not only does the Herald allow you to re-roll your crumble, but he also subtracts 1 from the crumble result..

This applied last edition too, with the Icon Bearer. Unless that was FAQ'd and I missed it, in which case I apologize on this point.