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I hate them for the same reason I hate most of the "main" marine chapters: every chapter has a super-exaggerated personality trait, and theirs bugs me. Ultramarines? Too perfectionist. Blood Angels? Obnoxious vampires. Space Wolves? Drunken Vikings. Dark Angels? Too secretive and aloof. The only chapters I can really get behind are Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Storm Wardens.

/end rant

I honestly liked how in the SM 4th edition codex, the Ultramarines were developing tactics and specialists with the aim of combating the Tyranid threat in the form of Tyranid Hunters. I thought this was an interesting direction for them to take. They have always been a strict codex chapter from the start, and the fact that they too must change with the times in order better protect the Imperium. These specialists could be elite units designed to battle MCs or high toughness opponents giving them more flavor. Granted, the unit itself wasn't particularly good, but it represented the Ultramarines learning and adapting to better combat their opponents. It was also a blast to make conversions for them.

But noooooo, not only did remove most references to the Ultramarines having a tyranid hunter units, they also remove their entry in the codex. they could have shoved them in as a special unit that the Special Character Cassius can take (who was the guy who trained the Tyranid Hunters to begin with.) Thanks GW, now I've got some pretty nice looked converted models that just fire their bolters and die with the rest of the tactical marines.

MandalorynOranj wrote:I hate them for the same reason I hate most of the "main" marine chapters: every chapter has a super-exaggerated personality trait, and theirs bugs me. Ultramarines? Too perfectionist. Blood Angels? Obnoxious vampires. Space Wolves? Drunken Vikings. Dark Angels? Too secretive and aloof. The only chapters I can really get behind are Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Storm Wardens.

/end rant

There's an issue here, the derogatory comments about some of a Chapter's fluff. Can you describe why you dislike a Chapter with an actual argument instead of jumping on the bandwagon and just calling them things you heard on a forum?

Um, well... there's no real need to get into detail on his rant, that's pretty much the boiled-down fluff behind the Chapters mentioned.

Space Wolves really are depicted as drunken space-vikings.

Blood Angels really are depicted as obnoxious space-vampires.

Ultramarines really are depicted as the most perfect of perfect Space Marines, that all other Space Marines aspire to be (even though this is not at all true).

... and so on. You don't (and shouldn't) argue opinion. No one's right, no one's wrong, it's just they way they look at the fluff. Some people like the UM, some prefer the IF, others like Tau or Orks or Eldar or Necron or whatever, and dislike one, some or all of the other armies for whatever reason.

At this point it's become a meme among 40k players.
I mean look at the above posts.
Most people just repeat the same three things: they are the poster boys, they think they are the best, and they are blue.

Ok... Let's break them down:

1. "They are the poster boys for space marines"
Actually, yes... yes they are. Their Primarch, one of the greatest tacticians who ever lived, wrote the Codex Astartes so that marines would have a tactical advantage over almost any enemy they faced. And guess what... it works. So that combined with the fact that the Ultra Marines have the most stable gene seed means that their are ALOT of chapters that work just like them and owe their allegiance too them.
Matt Ward didn't make this up. This is the way it's always been and put in this context it's perfectly understandable. Matt Ward did take it to an extreme when he wrote that all space marine chapters wish they were Ultra Marines, but an overzealous writer shouldn't be a reason to hate a chapter that's been around for over 20 years.

2. "They think they are the best"
This is ridiculous, any one who states this as a reason for hating the Ultra Marines just flat doesn't know alot about any space marines. Every single Space Marine chapter that exists thinks they are the best. This is evident in every single codex and novel written about The Astartes. An Astartes loyalty is to the Emperor and The Chapter, this mentality leads to quite a superiority complex. Even the much hated Matt Ward states in the space marines codex that the reason that you don't often see two space marine chapters fighting in the same campaign is that space marines consider it a point of pride to not ask other chapters for help. Does anyone actually think that the Blood Angels or Space Wolves sit around thinking "We're good and all... but this is really a job for the Raven Gaurd, they're much better at this kind of stuff."
Hell no! Why would you fault the Ultra Marines for having the same mentality of every other chapter in the galaxy?

3. "They are blue"
Really? This is just pain and simple band-wagoning. The Imperial Fists are yellow and no less cool for it. The Salamanders are green and no less cool for it. I could go on...

I will grant the some people have their legitimate reasons to personally dislike the Ultra Marines, and that is perfectly understandable. Everybody likes and dislikes different things. I personally don't rank them in my top in my top 5 Loyal space marine chapters, but they'd probably be in my top 10 and that would only be because I prefer original legions to successor chapters.

I just can't stand seeing the same poorly thought out reasons over and over again.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:At this point it's become a meme among 40k players.
I mean look at the above posts.
Most people just repeat the same three things: they are the poster boys, they think they are the best, and they are blue.

Ok... Let's break them down:

1. "They are the poster boys for space marines"
Actually, yes... yes they are. Their Primarch, one of the greatest tacticians who ever lived, wrote the Codex Astartes so that marines would have a tactical advantage over almost any enemy they faced. And guess what... it works. So that combined with the fact that the Ultra Marines have the most stable gene seed means that their are ALOT of chapters that work just like them and owe their allegiance too them.
Matt Ward didn't make this up. This is the way it's always been and put in this context it's perfectly understandable. Matt Ward did take it to an extreme when he wrote that all space marine chapters wish they were Ultra Marines, but an overzealous writer shouldn't be a reason to hate a chapter that's been around for over 20 years.

2. "They think they are the best"
This is ridiculous, any one who states this as a reason for hating the Ultra Marines just flat doesn't know alot about any space marines. Every single Space Marine chapter that exists thinks they are the best. This is evident in every single codex and novel written about The Astartes. An Astartes loyalty is to the Emperor and The Chapter, this mentality leads to quite a superiority complex. Even the much hated Matt Ward states in the space marines codex that the reason that you don't often see two space marine chapters fighting in the same campaign is that space marines consider it a point of pride to not ask other chapters for help. Does anyone actually think that the Blood Angels or Space Wolves sit around thinking "We're good and all... but this is really a job for the Raven Gaurd, they're much better at this kind of stuff."
Hell no! Why would you fault the Ultra Marines for having the same mentality of every other chapter in the galaxy?

3. "They are blue"
Really? This is just pain and simple band-wagoning. The Imperial Fists are yellow and no less cool for it. The Salamanders are green and no less cool for it. I could go on...

I will grant the some people have their legitimate reasons to personally dislike the Ultra Marines, and that is perfectly understandable. Everybody likes and dislikes different things. I personally don't rank them in my top in my top 5 Loyal space marine chapters, but they'd probably be in my top 10 and that would only be because I prefer original legions to successor chapters.

I just can't stand seeing the same poorly thought out reasons over and over again.

+1
I can't help but feel the same, the Ultras adhere strictly to the codex (unless during the most desperate desperate of times) and it is this which allows them to win many battles and come across to other chapters as a strong chapter. Also, many of the current chapters originate from the Ultramarines so there would definitely be some who still ''worship'' Gulliman and respect their founding chapter/legion. The only conceivable points why Ultramarines are hated is that the haters lose frequently to Ultra players or just dislike blue, my brother hates all blue chapters...

Okay, sorry, reading several pages of another thread about why people dislike BA made me irritated. I shouldn't have responded like that.

I don't care that they're poster boys, and I get every Space Marine can be seen as "the best", I just honestly find they have less flavor then other Chapters.

And yeah, I have to agree, the "they're blue, ergo, they suck" argument is fairly lame.

I have another question though. Why do people dislike Mat Ward so much? He seems fairly strongly hated for being enthusiastic about the codices he writes. It's not like we want to get inspiration and psyched up about an army, got to read the fluff in the codex, and read "they were 'meh', not that great, but not that bad either. They were the mediocrity in the galaxy from which all things mediocre are wrought"

NagothDaCleaver wrote:
2. "They think they are the best"
This is ridiculous, any one who states this as a reason for hating the Ultra Marines just flat doesn't know alot about any space marines. Every single Space Marine chapter that exists thinks they are the best. This is evident in every single codex and novel written about The Astartes. An Astartes loyalty is to the Emperor and The Chapter, this mentality leads to quite a superiority complex. Even the much hated Matt Ward states in the space marines codex that the reason that you don't often see two space marine chapters fighting in the same campaign is that space marines consider it a point of pride to not ask other chapters for help. Does anyone actually think that the Blood Angels or Space Wolves sit around thinking "We're good and all... but this is really a job for the Raven Gaurd, they're much better at this kind of stuff."
Hell no! Why would you fault the Ultra Marines for having the same mentality of every other chapter in the galaxy?

The Ultramarines movie does not help though. Spoiler below




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elector wrote:Okay, sorry, reading several pages of another thread about why people dislike BA made me irritated. I shouldn't have responded like that.

I don't care that they're poster boys, and I get every Space Marine can be seen as "the best", I just honestly find they have less flavor then other Chapters.

And yeah, I have to agree, the "they're blue, ergo, they suck" argument is fairly lame.

I have another question though. Why do people dislike Mat Ward so much? He seems fairly strongly hated for being enthusiastic about the codices he writes. It's not like we want to get inspiration and psyched up about an army, got to read the fluff in the codex, and read "they were 'meh', not that great, but not that bad either. They were the mediocrity in the galaxy from which all things mediocre are wrought"

Everything I've heard about the gripes are that he messes with the fluff to the point where it doesn't make sense, would never happen, and/or is so crazy that you'd have to read it twice to make sure you read the right thing.

I don't count the Ultra Marines movie for anything.
It was worthless.

Lawl Blue anyway, I honestly really liked the Ultramarines movie. Would like to see one with one of the Eldar races though.

Elector wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I hate them for the same reason I hate most of the "main" marine chapters: every chapter has a super-exaggerated personality trait, and theirs bugs me. Ultramarines? Too perfectionist. Blood Angels? Obnoxious vampires. Space Wolves? Drunken Vikings. Dark Angels? Too secretive and aloof. The only chapters I can really get behind are Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Storm Wardens.

/end rant

There's an issue here, the derogatory comments about some of a Chapter's fluff. Can you describe why you dislike a Chapter with an actual argument instead of jumping on the bandwagon and just calling them things you heard on a forum?

I'm sorry if I've come off as jumping on the bandwagon. I've read the main novels for all of these guys (in fact the Space Wolves omnibus was the first contact I had with 40k) and they just leave a bad taste in my mouth. The Ultramarines books were pretty good, but that's because Graham McNeill's an amazing writer. They are still incredibly rigid and boring. There's a reason why when someone says "vanilla marines" everybody pictures an Ultramarine. They really just don't have a hook to them like other, more interesting (IMHO) chapters do.

However, some of them really go to far with their hook. The Blood Angels obsession with blood and continued depression about Sanguinius (it's been 10,000 years, get over it) is way too pervasive in the novels and the codex fluff, and makes them unappealing to me. The Space Wolves, while entertaining, are so over the top insane in most of their fluff that it's almost comical (notable exception: Prospero Burns). They just don't really fit in with the rest of the universe. Dark Angels is just a matter if personal preference, I don't like how arrogant they are and how they are soo obsessed with cleaning up the Fallen as to attack other Imperial forces if they are in their way.

I'm sure many of the same arguments can be applied to the chapters I like, but as I said in my original post, those were the reasons why I hated those chapters, not why they were no good and nobody should like them.

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Elector wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:I hate them for the same reason I hate most of the "main" marine chapters: every chapter has a super-exaggerated personality trait, and theirs bugs me. Ultramarines? Too perfectionist. Blood Angels? Obnoxious vampires. Space Wolves? Drunken Vikings. Dark Angels? Too secretive and aloof. The only chapters I can really get behind are Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Storm Wardens.

/end rant

There's an issue here, the derogatory comments about some of a Chapter's fluff. Can you describe why you dislike a Chapter with an actual argument instead of jumping on the bandwagon and just calling them things you heard on a forum?

I'm sorry if I've come off as jumping on the bandwagon. I've read the main novels for all of these guys (in fact the Space Wolves omnibus was the first contact I had with 40k) and they just leave a bad taste in my mouth. The Ultramarines books were pretty good, but that's because Graham McNeill's an amazing writer. They are still incredibly rigid and boring. There's a reason why when someone says "vanilla marines" everybody pictures an Ultramarine. They really just don't have a hook to them like other, more interesting (IMHO) chapters do.

I agree completely. I apologize for my remark.

However, some of them really go to far with their hook. The Blood Angels obsession with blood and continued depression about Sanguinius (it's been 10,000 years, get over it) is way too pervasive in the novels and the codex fluff, and makes them unappealing to me. The Space Wolves, while entertaining, are so over the top insane in most of their fluff that it's almost comical (notable exception: Prospero Burns). They just don't really fit in with the rest of the universe. Dark Angels is just a matter if personal preference, I don't like how arrogant they are and how they are soo obsessed with cleaning up the Fallen as to attack other Imperial forces if they are in their way.

I dunno, it's not like they're trying to hold onto this 10,000 year old memory, it kind of haunts them at every turn. The Black Rage where they live out Sanguinius' last moments, and the way they all look similar to their primarch makes it hard to put behind them. I personally enjoyed James Swallow's BA novels, but then, I'm completely biased towards it (playing BA and all).

Shovan wrote:
Everything I've heard about the gripes are that he messes with the fluff to the point where it doesn't make sense, would never happen, and/or is so crazy that you'd have to read it twice to make sure you read the right thing.

Like the Necron/Blood Angel team-up?

Elector wrote:I dunno, it's not like they're trying to hold onto this 10,000 year old memory, it kind of haunts them at every turn. The Black Rage where they live out Sanguinius' last moments, and the way they all look similar to their primarch makes it hard to put behind them. I personally enjoyed James Swallow's BA novels, but then, I'm completely biased towards it (playing BA and all).

I thought the books were pretty good too, just didn't like how they portrayed the Blood Angels. They had a really interesting plot and pretty solid writing. (The two in the omnibus at least, I haven't read the later ones)

Elector wrote:
Like the Necron/Blood Angel team-up?

I was okay with that up until the point where they parted ways at the end. I don't see either side just going "Well, that was fun and all, but there has been enough blood shed for one day." and leaving.

Exactly^ I was fine until they parted feeling too friendly to keep fighting. If it was because they didn't have the tactical strength, sure, I can buy that, but parting because attacking their old "comrades"? That's just stupid and goes against every bit of Space Marine and Necron fluff there is.

As an Ultramarine player, all I can say is "haters are gonna hate"

But I think My Sig makes my point better.

Yeah, but they are the ones that saved the Imperium...
After Horus was killed, the other loyal Legion where quite badly damaged. Only Ultramarines where not, and they had to protect entire Imperium by themselves until other Legions replenish their numbers.
And their Primiach is the one that wrote Codex Astartes so that HH never happened again ( at least with no Space Marine Legions to deal with ). The Imperial Fist where strongly oppose to this that they even fire on Imperial Navy. In the end they to saw that that was for the Grater Good so they split like everyone else ( except BT and SW ).
And Ultramarines have their own empire on the eastern fringe. And that's what bug the other players the most.

Because they are the 40k version of boy scouts. Seriously.

No ones posted this yet? Oh boy!



I R ORIGINAL

See below why. Yes, the story about corrupted smurfs.

Personally I just really detest the pun that is their name. I also distike the generic GW colour scheme and have done since I got into 40k (late 90s). Although I do like the colour scheme provided ultramarine blue or mordian blue isn't used (I prefer a darker colour) and they aren't 2nd company. 3rd and 4th Company Ultras actually look pretty good.

The fluff is also terrible but that's been covered previously.

I disliked Ultramarines. Their background, the holding back on the Horus Heresy, their need to impose what Guilliman wanted for the Codex Astartes, the fact they have a damn realm while other chapters don't... this made me angry.

I hated them and the players did not help either since they seem to obtain the same "arrogance" that comes with the background of the chapter.

But then I realized how stupid I was after reading the new Grey Knights codex. If I thought Ultras were arrogant and to be erased from the Imperium, now they are not anymore. Others must be purged.

Now, honestly, Ultras have a warped background because are the poster marines, easy to paint and they are great to see on the tabletop when painted. That's the only reason they've been "promoted" after Rogue Trader to what they are now.

aderdere wrote:Because they are the 40k version of boy scouts. Seriously.

You got anything against Boy Scouts? ^^

Anyway, the problem is not the Ultramarines themselves, but their treatment as Posterboys.

The Ultramarines themselves are actually quite interesting. The ancient roman flavor they have going in places is gold for conversions and paintjobs.

The problem is that they´re focus hogs and tend to show how over the top and one sided the codex fluff is.
No, every other Chapter does NOT aspire to be like the Blue Boys.
While we´re there, what other original Chapters? Iron Hands? Who´s that?
Calgar beating an Avatar of Khaine is tame compared to some newer fluff for Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Grey Knights, though.

Brother Coa wrote:...so they split like everyone else ( except BT and SW ).

Ignoring the over-the-top fanboyism going on in the rest of the post, please know your fluff. Black Templars were not an original Legion, they are a chapter from the Imperial Fists. Space Wolves DID in fact form a successor chapter, but their gene seed was corrupted and they all got Wulfen'd.

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:...so they split like everyone else ( except BT and SW ).

Ignoring the over-the-top fanboyism going on in the rest of the post, please know your fluff. Black Templars were not an original Legion, they are a chapter from the Imperial Fists. Space Wolves DID in fact form a successor chapter, but their gene seed was corrupted and they all got Wulfen'd.

I know my fluff, I didn't mentioned that BT are a Legion ( well frankly they are with almost 9000 Marines ) I just said that they use Codex Astartes instead of toilet paper, SW to.

Well I wouldn't say that I hate them but they just don't appeal to me. Yes it is annoying that they are the example in everything everywhere. But then again I don't like Blood Angels, Black Templars or Space Wolves for that matter. I personally like Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists. And mostly in my experience it seems to be the "I like these guys more so those guys suck" mentality.

My disdain towards the Ultras is basically that during the Horus Herasy when the call was made for all to come home and defend thier Emperor, they said no. Have I read into why they did that no, would I change my opinion if I did maybe. What I do know of the Ultras seems to clean and simple there is no "divine or alternative" motive to anything they do. They are to simple. The character of the chapter is to shallow for my preference. I do actually like the color blue, and considered making a personal chapter with blue colors.

Honestly they do have ultra in their name and I think that if you don't like the fluff, write your own. Make yor own chapter if you don't like matt wards interpretaion. To be honest it isn't that bad.

There is another problem with them: they only defend their own 'empire' against enemies of mankind. While chapters like Blood Angels etc. defend just the entire empire, they sit down while battles on important planets are happ'ning, like Armaggadon.

And they are praised for what? Defending a few planets? Holding back in Horus Heresy? Having a Primarch that is a good strategian but didn't use it on Terra? tssskk...

thenoobbomb wrote:There is another problem with them: they only defend their own 'empire' against enemies of mankind. While chapters like Blood Angels etc. defend just the entire empire, they sit down while battles on important planets are happ'ning, like Armaggadon.

And they are praised for what? Defending a few planets? Holding back in Horus Heresy? Having a Primarch that is a good strategian but didn't use it on Terra? tssskk...

Now that sounds a douchebaggish to me. I did not remember that. I really should start memorizing the fluff better...