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iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.

Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.

So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.

You completely missed my point though. Neither 'slaughtered' or 'bathed' are used in the passage. Both have more extreme connotations than what the passage actually implies, both are words I have regularly seen quoted from the story. Slaughtered implies that the SoB were helpless and tried to defend themselves, bathed implies they literally washed their entire bodies by submerging themselves in the SoB blood. Neither of these words are used, which is why I made the point that people use second, third, fourth hand information like they actually know everything about the codex. The entire story is in-keeping with the image the development team wanted for the Grey Knights book. The entire image is just the old image with more details and certain parts explained with more depth. It's VERY 40k, and VERY Grey Knights. There are numerous events like The Bloodtide that have happened before, involving other Imperial Armies, never seen them really complained about before.

Kroothawk wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.

Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.

So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.

It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.

Nerivant wrote:It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.

Yeah, it's no fun to kill your unexpecting comrades and spill their blood all over your armour and weapons, but someone has to do it (insert brofist with Khorne berserker)

Reading the BA and particularly GK codices does show some problems with Ward's writing, even though in typical Internetz fashion, furor goes way overboard.

Biggest problem is how Ward treats the bad guys (mostly Daemons). In both books, some of the scariest Daemons imaginable are defeated time and time again, often described in rather casual fashion. These include some top named characters of their own respective Codices (Skarbrand, Kairos, Avatar etc). Lets assume next Chaos Daemons book features M'kar. Why should anyone care? The Grey Knights codex already estabilished he's a total loser, whom Draigo can beat to pulp with his left hand. Quite simply, the bad guys aren't scary anymore after they get the Ward treatment. He's not the only writer in the world history to fall in this trap (David Eddings comes to mind).

Not ALL Ward fluff is this crappy, for example I didn't think that Calgar defeating Avatar in vanilla SM codex was particularly bad passage, despite the nerd rage around it. But much of it is. Draigo description is crap, because it estabilishes that he is totally undefeatable by scariest Daemons described anywhere in the fluff. Why does the Imperium even bother having other Grey Knights, or any other Marines at all, since Draigo can apparently handle everything himself. He doesn't even lead his troops to defeat enemies like Calgar, he does it all by himself!

Which is shame, because the underlying basic idea behind Draigo character isn't that bad, and the miniature looks quite good.

Kroothawk wrote:

Nerivant wrote:It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.

Yeah, it's no fun to kill your unexpecting comrades and spill their blood all over your armour and weapons, but someone has to do it (insert brofist with Khorne berserker)

So what thread did you copy and paste that small quotation from?

I can’t help but feel like Ward’s own apologist for taking the time to do this but…

Valkyrie wrote:Two things I particularly hate:

1: The monotonous layouts of each Codex. Seriously all they have are timelines of famous battles, I would prefer something like the older Necron Codex, where there are a variety of fluff pieces from different sources, such as an Explorator's report or the story of Jaramshela the assassin. Read through the Necron Codex and you'll see what I mean.

2: How every Codex is only focussed on a few things. I can probably guarantee that the next Codex, whatever the race, will involve crap about Malan'tai, Ka'Bhanda and another Necron planet-size ship.

1: The new Codex layout is not restricted to Mr.Ward's books. I personally found the old way of laying the content out in the old codices too messy. Timelines are a convinient way to tell an army's story quickly.

2: Not necessarilly a bad thing. On the brightside, it makes the universe seem more coherent and ties up loose ends. On the other side, it slows the universe's expansion and ties up loose ends.

Kroothawk wrote:He singlehandedly broke Fantasy 7th edition with his Daemon army book. After that competitive play was only possible by adding house rules or not allowing Daemons.

I know nothing about Fantasy, so I can't comment.

Kroothawk wrote:He broke GK fluff by making them almost Khorne worshippers by bathing in the blood of Sororitas to resist the temptation of the Blood God.

iproxtaco seems to be addressing this, but I will throw in that blood-rituals not uncommon amongst Asartes Chapter cults; there's even a Blood Angels successor that call themselves the Blood Drinkers.

Kroothawk wrote:He broke Inquisition fluff by allowing notoriously incooperative Xenos to make up 90% of an Ordo Xenos army.

Except nowhere in the book’s fluff is a Jokearo army supported.

Brother SRM wrote:I like that people think Mat Ward works in a complete vacuum and everything bad in a codex is his fault and his fault only.

Indeed. The Dark Eldar interviews on Youtube clearly show that despite whoever’s name is first on the book, nearly everyone in the studio has a hand in what goes into the codex one way or another. Everyone who bemoans the Dreadknight’s appearance blames Ward, but it’s the studio sculptors who designed it.

Asuron wrote:
Well heres a couple of my problems with him
1: Sorcery and psychic powers are now the same according to him, with Malcador the Sigilte apparentlly being able to hide planets in the warp....

They both involve Warp-trickery. It’s an oversimplification, but I don’t think its incorrect.

Asuron wrote:
4. naming convetions, Blood fists, bloodstrike Missiles, Nemesis forcesword, nemsis daemonhammer

Have you read Phil Kelly’s Space Wolf codex? It’s full of Wolf Wolves riding giant Wolves wielding Wolf Claws and wearing Wolf-tooth necklaces. And as svendrex says, Nemesis weapons are a specific family of weapons with their own unique abilities.

Asuron wrote:
5.Purifiers being more pure than the already already pure Grey Knights, with Castellan crowe being even more pure than them, so hes like 200% pure now!

You must not have read much into the Purifier’s entry. The Purifiers aren’t special because they’re “pure”, that wouldn’t set them apart from the rest of the Chapter. They are set apart not because of their immunity to Chaos influence, but by their ability to repel it. Their souls don’t just burn in the Warp as psykers; they scald it. This flame can manifest itself in the material world as a jet of fire that literally incinerates the evil inside a creature. Crowe is the head of the order and holder of his sword because his “anit-chaosness” is strong enough to keep the Blade of Antwyr quiet.

Asuron wrote:7. BA teamup with Necrons

They didn’t “team up” like bros so much as they happened to not be shooting at each other for the duration of the invasion. After the battle, the Necrons left because continuing to fight with their numbers would have been illogical and the Blood Angels got all moral about it.

Asuron wrote:
8. Calgars Falcon Punch

-Has been discussed numerous times across a number of forums, and the consensus is that Calgar can indeed beat an Avatar after its wadded its way through a sea of bolter and cannon fire.

Asuron wrote:
But see the thing is his books have powerful stuff in them and so therefore competitive players buy lots of them, meaning that hes causing sales so they think hes doing stuff right because of it

Ward’s books are actually quite well balanced. He’s not good at wording out his rules, but his books aren’t the cheesefest that Robin Cruddace’s Imperial Guard and Phil Kelly’s Space Wolves codices are. How many of those do you see at the tournaments?

Brother Coa wrote: like what he has done to the rules in 5'th edition, it's not bad at all. But Draigo wrighting on traitor Primarch heart on Plague Planet in warp and Ba teaming up with Necrons to stop Tyranids is a little to much...

…did you not read my previous post at all? Draigo hasn’t been anywhere near the Plague Planet, and as Kanluwen attempted to clarify several days ago, the Horus Heresy series establishes Mortarion as a pushover compared to even his own tactical marines.

Backfire wrote:Reading the BA and particularly GK codices does show some problems with Ward's writing, even though in typical Internetz fashion, furor goes way overboard.

Biggest problem is how Ward treats the bad guys (mostly Daemons). In both books, some of the scariest Daemons imaginable are defeated time and time again, often described in rather casual fashion. These include some top named characters of their own respective Codices (Skarbrand, Kairos, Avatar etc). Lets assume next Chaos Daemons book features M'kar. Why should anyone care? The Grey Knights codex already estabilished he's a total loser, whom Draigo can beat to pulp with his left hand. Quite simply, the bad guys aren't scary anymore after they get the Ward treatment. He's not the only writer to fall in this trap (David Eddings comes to mind).

Good point. I too wish that Ward had made up some of his own daemons to stomp on in the codex rather than diminish the stature of beasts like Kah’banda.

Backfire wrote:Not ALL Ward fluff is this crappy, for example I didn't think that Calgar defeating Avatar in vanilla SM codex was particularly bad passage, despite the nerd rage around it. But much of it is. Draigo description is crap, because it estabilishes that he is totally undefeatable by scariest Daemons described anywhere in the fluff. Why does the Imperium even bother having other Grey Knights, or any other Marines at all, since Draigo can apparently handle everything himself. He doesn't even lead his troops to defeat enemies like Calgar, he does it all by himself!

Which is shame, because the underlying basic idea behind Draigo character isn't that bad, and the miniature looks quite good.

Agreed on both points.

Because he didn't bring to us a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT as an offering.

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:Because he didn't bring to us a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT as an offering.

You're loving this, aren't you?

purplefood wrote:He writes bad fluff.
He has bad ideas for new fluff.
He wrecks good and pre-established fluff.
He makes a good target.

I second that.

I feel like I'm one of the few people who actually LIKES the rulebooks that Matt Ward writes. I'm kind of opposed to Marine armies (as I like the idea of regular joes combating the forces of eternal darkness), but I own and have genuinely appreciated the new direction that his books are going. I've been in the hobby since I was in 5th grade, and getting to the far side of college now, I've had ample to reflect on how the game is changing.

It seems like a lot of the hate out there is for relatively insubstantial reasons. First and foremost, 40k is a GAME, and therefore the RULES contained in the various codices are probably the most important aspect of the product. That said, I'm a fan of the fiction, too. I play some of the 40k roleplaying games that Fantasy Flight churns out (and indeed I live about twenty minutes from the company headquarters store) and love the work that goes into them. When you read about the insane gak that gets put into codexes, you need to take into account a quote spoken by Alan Bligh: "The Imperium has this tendency to mythologize everything... Space Marines are very demi-god like in their aspect, surely not only in their superhuman stature but as Gods of Battle..."

Most of the fluff I read in Marine books and indeed other iterations like Guard or Grey Knights, I imagine that I am essentially reading a piece of propaganda. I am the layman Imperial citizen consuming this material, a person in the 40k mythos who is in dire need of heroes like Kaldor Draigo, who carves his name into the rotting heart of a Daemon Primarch.

There's nothing particularly constant about the 40k mythos. Take what you like and make it yours. Not every word needs be gospel.

Backfire wrote:Reading the BA and particularly GK codices does show some problems with Ward's writing, even though in typical Internetz fashion, furor goes way overboard.

Biggest problem is how Ward treats the bad guys (mostly Daemons). In both books, some of the scariest Daemons imaginable are defeated time and time again, often described in rather casual fashion. These include some top named characters of their own respective Codices (Skarbrand, Kairos, Avatar etc). Lets assume next Chaos Daemons book features M'kar. Why should anyone care? The Grey Knights codex already estabilished he's a total loser, whom Draigo can beat to pulp with his left hand. Quite simply, the bad guys aren't scary anymore after they get the Ward treatment. He's not the only writer in the world history to fall in this trap (David Eddings comes to mind).

Not ALL Ward fluff is this crappy, for example I didn't think that Calgar defeating Avatar in vanilla SM codex was particularly bad passage, despite the nerd rage around it. But much of it is. Draigo description is crap, because it estabilishes that he is totally undefeatable by scariest Daemons described anywhere in the fluff. Why does the Imperium even bother having other Grey Knights, or any other Marines at all, since Draigo can apparently handle everything himself. He doesn't even lead his troops to defeat enemies like Calgar, he does it all by himself!

Which is shame, because the underlying basic idea behind Draigo character isn't that bad, and the miniature looks quite good.

+1 to this. I’ve posted something similar in the past regarding how Ward misuses 40k fluff to show how badass his characters are. At the end of the day, nothing is wrong with a heroic character triumphing over a powerful villain as a piece of fluff. It only becomes an issue when the said villains in question are the likes of someone like Mortarion (Draigo’s fluff is incredibly notorious because he didn’t just defeat just 1 named character, he defeated several). Using upper level characters as cheap plot devices is a sign of bad story writing in my opinion.

People hate Mat(t?) (thew?) [which is it?] Ward because he makes Phil Kelly look like Malcolm X. Chappell's show reference anyone. In all seriousness people hate Mr. Ward because he ruins armies by touching the codex. GK have no history or Khorne like blood sacrifice, now they do cause of Ward. also the whole Ultramarine's being the best and all other space marines wanting to really be Ultramarine's. I think a lot is just bandwagon hatred too.

Kroothawk wrote:

Nerivant wrote:It's not like they took pleasure in it; it was out of necessity, like everything else the Ordos do.

Yeah, it's no fun to kill your unexpecting comrades and spill their blood all over your armour and weapons, but someone has to do it (insert brofist with Khorne berserker)

And what if they agreed to that? There is no mention of that to?

candy.man wrote:At the end of the day, nothing is wrong with a heroic character triumphing over a powerful villain as a piece of fluff. It only becomes an issue when the said villains in question are the likes of someone like Mortarion (Draigo’s fluff is incredibly notorious because he didn’t just defeat just 1 named character, he defeated several). Using upper level characters as cheap plot devices is a sign of bad story writing in my opinion.

This right here is the underlying problem. If I wrote in a fanfic that my Archon Xelkireth carved his name into Marneus Calgar or even Mephiston's chest the thread would get flamed to pieces and probably locked due to the massive amounts of incivility contained therein. Nevermind the fact that rules-wise, my Archon probably could carve his name into those characters' chests before they even landed a blow on him, it's the blatant disregard to 25+ years of pre-existing canon/background story/fluff.

Because he writes horrible backstory.


Myself, I have more like for Ward than I do for Kelly. The amount of frustration Ward's horrible fluff writing creates pales in comparison to the frustration SW and DE codices create...assuming you are actually playing the game and not talking about the game.

SOFDC wrote:Because he writes horrible backstory.


Myself, I have more like for Ward than I do for Kelly. The amount of frustration Ward's horrible fluff writing creates pales in comparison to the frustration SW and DE codices create...assuming you are actually playing the game and not talking about the game.

What frustration does the Dark Eldar codex create? It's a beautiful book.

Brother SRM wrote:

SOFDC wrote:Because he writes horrible backstory.


Myself, I have more like for Ward than I do for Kelly. The amount of frustration Ward's horrible fluff writing creates pales in comparison to the frustration SW and DE codices create...assuming you are actually playing the game and not talking about the game.

What frustration does the Dark Eldar codex create? It's a beautiful book.

I'm going to have to second that. Especially when compared to the previous book.

iproxtaco wrote: The entire story is in-keeping with the image the development team wanted for the Grey Knights book. The entire image is just the old image with more details and certain parts explained with more depth. It's VERY 40k, and VERY Grey Knights. There are numerous events like The Bloodtide that have happened before, involving other Imperial Armies, never seen them really complained about before.

This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.

And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...

If Matt Ward was a writer worth a damn, he'd have found a way to show the GK come off in the 'We ain't afraid of nothing' way he wanted to (Stalward defender, willing to do whatever it takes to win)... but since he isn't, and he made them come off as a super pure fighter of virtue - the whole thing just make them look like hypocrite. The books tones clashes with itself. He wrote himself in a corner, making the GK so good at their job they can single handedly kill Greater Deamons and making totally uncorruptible... and then 2 text block later, they need SoB blood in order not be corrupted. Again, 'Wait, what?'.

Hence why all the Khorne related joke around the piece of fluff. Hence why all the 'hate'. Hence why other blood sacrifice get skimmed over... I mean, nobody is going to be shocked to hear the Blood Drinkers drink blood or the Flesh Tearers tear flesh. And there is nothing wrong with the GKs being total bastards - but stick to it the entire book, don't change your mind with every new entry.


Personally I don't mind so much about the fluff... but as SM (Vanilla) and Ork players, I kinda feel Ward is giving me the finger with every marine book he write that is twice as good as the first one he wrote :(

What frustration does the Dark Eldar codex create? It's a beautiful book.

Give it to an even somewhat intelligent opponent.

Kroothawk wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.

Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.

So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.

Riiiiight...

Not only am I never going to start a Grey Knights army, I think I'm gonna be physically sick, despite the fictional nature. This Law & Order: Special Victims Unit episode on TV isn't helping at all.

SOFDC wrote:

What frustration does the Dark Eldar codex create? It's a beautiful book.

Give it to an even somewhat intelligent opponent.

QQ more.

None of my opponents have complained and all of them are intelligent.

Tarkand wrote:
This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.

And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...

No, it actually makes perfect sense. GK are pure and uncorruptible, because they are ready to do anything to avoid being corrupted. Including some acts which might seem terrible and heinous when taken out of context, but in the end it's all for Greater Good. Er, I mean 'greater good'.

Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.

Backfire wrote:

Tarkand wrote:
This one jumps out at people more because the books keep harping on and on about how pure and perfect the GK are, about how none have ever fallen, about how they mind is made of iron and did we mention just how damn pure they are? If a GK bathes in a cesspool, after 5 minutes, the water is perfectly drinkable and smell faintly of lavender.

And then they go ahead and commit a rather evil act so they won't get corrupted. Which make most people go 'Wait, what?'. The whole thing makes about as much sense as setting yourself on fire to avoid getting cold. I mean, yeah, it'll work, but nobody should need to tell you why it's a bad idea. Not to mention that SoB's faith comes from their belief in the Emperor... I don't really get how their blood would work as a 'corruption retardant' - if anything you'd think killing SoBs would be a pretty terrible act that takes you closer to corruption...

No, it actually makes perfect sense. GK are pure and uncorruptible, because they are ready to do anything to avoid being corrupted. Including some acts which might seem terrible and heinous when taken out of context, but in the end it's all for Greater Good. Er, I mean 'greater good'.

Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.

I'd say that if that's pure and uncorruptible, I really don't want to see the Imperium's version of impurity, much less evil.

I used to have a mental image of the Grey Knights as being like D&D paladins, defenders of the weak and punishers of evil. Uncompromising in their principles and with an inflexible moral code. A shining beacon in the darkness of the Imperium. Their shining silver armor kinda helped that mindset along, given what you see paladins wearing in stereotypical artwork - unblemished silver plate armor, wielding a sword and possibly a shield.

I guess I can buy their lack of morality and empathy, since it fits into the 41st Millennium's Imperium's mindset of, "win or die," resulting in many situations where acts such as this become necessary. That is the point of grimdark after all, is to present a universe where the most terrible things imaginable are everyday occurrences. It's not just the Grey Knights who sicken me with stuff like this. A lot of the stuff from the Witch Hunters Codex about the Inquisition did the same to me, to a lesser extent. It's why my Sisters of Battle army never had Inquisitorial elements bought for it until I found the Sister Hospitaller mini.

I guess it's personal preference on my part. Grimdark is fine for the most part, with everyone fighting everyone for survival, expansion, or fun in the case of the Orks, but this particular one nauseated me more. I once read a book where a unit of power armored troops - not from WH40k - fought from an entrenched position against wave after wave of enemies, until the tops of the mountain pass bottleneck were soaked in their blood, bodies piled up high. That didn't sicken me. Hell, I laughed at a lot of parts of that book, because it was written humorously and the enemies were inhuman aliens. But brutality against women, however well-intentioned - which seems like a total contradiction in my mind - will always nauseate me, even more so if it involves a lot of blood or gore. I can't stomach stuff like this. It's an evil act any way you put it.

It's not so much that it doesn't fit with the Imperium for me. It's that it's an unquestionably evil act that turns the stomach, regardless of who's doing it. If Chaos Worshippers had done it, it would be equally as nauseating for me.

It is confusing though, that the Grey Knights are incorruptible and pure, and then commit an unspeakable act so that they won't be corrupted. It does seem like a contradiction there, and it makes me wonder whether the Chaos Gods actually succeeded in corrupting those Grey Knights.

Ironsight wrote:
…did you not read my previous post at all? Draigo hasn’t been anywhere near the Plague Planet, and as Kanluwen attempted to clarify several days ago, the Horus Heresy series establishes Mortarion as a pushover compared to even his own tactical marines.

Which is a load of guff, even Lorgar could whoop his own marines and he's the biggest wimp of them all.

Mortarion is not Lorgar.

I consider his fluff to be just terrible. Honestly. Someone previously mentioned that you can just make an army with no grey knights, but with only Jacquerous or whatever their names are and daemonhosts. And what do the inquisitors say?
No! Bad grey knights! Don't do it next time.
And so on and so on...
But as it comes to the game. They are a balanced army. Actually they are the only army so far that orks need to shoot down. Cause I don't know what grey knights couldn't defeat in CC

Pouncey wrote:
I used to have a mental image of the Grey Knights as being like D&D paladins, defenders of the weak and punishers of evil. Uncompromising in their principles and with an inflexible moral code. A shining beacon in the darkness of the Imperium. Their shining silver armor kinda helped that mindset along, given what you see paladins wearing in stereotypical artwork - unblemished silver plate armor, wielding a sword and possibly a shield.

I guess I can buy their lack of morality and empathy, since it fits into the 41st Millennium's Imperium's mindset of, "win or die," resulting in many situations where acts such as this become necessary. That is the point of grimdark after all, is to present a universe where the most terrible things imaginable are everyday occurrences. It's not just the Grey Knights who sicken me with stuff like this. A lot of the stuff from the Witch Hunters Codex about the Inquisition did the same to me, to a lesser extent. It's why my Sisters of Battle army never had Inquisitorial elements bought for it until I found the Sister Hospitaller mini.

I guess it's personal preference on my part. Grimdark is fine for the most part, with everyone fighting everyone for survival, expansion, or fun in the case of the Orks, but this particular one nauseated me more. I once read a book where a unit of power armored troops - not from WH40k - fought from an entrenched position against wave after wave of enemies, until the tops of the mountain pass bottleneck were soaked in their blood, bodies piled up high. That didn't sicken me. Hell, I laughed at a lot of parts of that book, because it was written humorously and the enemies were inhuman aliens. But brutality against women, however well-intentioned - which seems like a total contradiction in my mind - will always nauseate me, even more so if it involves a lot of blood or gore. I can't stomach stuff like this. It's an evil act any way you put it.

Well, if you want that, you can always play Tau

I think the SoB would be offended by suggestion that they should not be hit, because they're girls.

Pouncey wrote:
It is confusing though, that the Grey Knights are incorruptible and pure, and then commit an unspeakable act so that they won't be corrupted. It does seem like a contradiction there, and it makes me wonder whether the Chaos Gods actually succeeded in corrupting those Grey Knights.

It's not confusing at all. It would be lame if GK were 'pure' simply because they were born with some special mutation which renders them immune to Warp. It's all about resolve.

Backfire wrote:

Pouncey wrote:
I used to have a mental image of the Grey Knights as being like D&D paladins, defenders of the weak and punishers of evil. Uncompromising in their principles and with an inflexible moral code. A shining beacon in the darkness of the Imperium. Their shining silver armor kinda helped that mindset along, given what you see paladins wearing in stereotypical artwork - unblemished silver plate armor, wielding a sword and possibly a shield.

I guess I can buy their lack of morality and empathy, since it fits into the 41st Millennium's Imperium's mindset of, "win or die," resulting in many situations where acts such as this become necessary. That is the point of grimdark after all, is to present a universe where the most terrible things imaginable are everyday occurrences. It's not just the Grey Knights who sicken me with stuff like this. A lot of the stuff from the Witch Hunters Codex about the Inquisition did the same to me, to a lesser extent. It's why my Sisters of Battle army never had Inquisitorial elements bought for it until I found the Sister Hospitaller mini.

I guess it's personal preference on my part. Grimdark is fine for the most part, with everyone fighting everyone for survival, expansion, or fun in the case of the Orks, but this particular one nauseated me more. I once read a book where a unit of power armored troops - not from WH40k - fought from an entrenched position against wave after wave of enemies, until the tops of the mountain pass bottleneck were soaked in their blood, bodies piled up high. That didn't sicken me. Hell, I laughed at a lot of parts of that book, because it was written humorously and the enemies were inhuman aliens. But brutality against women, however well-intentioned - which seems like a total contradiction in my mind - will always nauseate me, even more so if it involves a lot of blood or gore. I can't stomach stuff like this. It's an evil act any way you put it.

Well, if you want that, you can always play Tau

I think the SoB would be offended by suggestion that they should not be hit, because they're girls.

Pouncey wrote:
It is confusing though, that the Grey Knights are incorruptible and pure, and then commit an unspeakable act so that they won't be corrupted. It does seem like a contradiction there, and it makes me wonder whether the Chaos Gods actually succeeded in corrupting those Grey Knights.

It's not confusing at all. It would be lame if GK were 'pure' simply because they were born with some special mutation which renders them immune to Warp. It's all about resolve.

Getting hit or killed in battle is one thing. Getting murdered by your brothers-in-arms and your blood spread on their weapons and armor because they're feeling weak is another. It makes me nauseous and gives me a serious aversion to Grey Knights.

I think I'll take my meds now, might calm me down a little after I get some sleep when they start to kick in.

Pouncey wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: For example, a lot of people THINK the Grey Knights 'slaughtered' the SoB and 'bathed' in their blood. 'Bathed' is never used in the passage, nor is 'slaughtered'.

Codex Grey Knights wrote:Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knight's first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oil and used to anoint the Grey Knight's armour and weapons.

So to overcome the lure of the Blood God, they kill innocent comrades and cover their armour and weapons with their blood.

Riiiiight...

Not only am I never going to start a Grey Knights army, I think I'm gonna be physically sick, despite the fictional nature. This Law & Order: Special Victims Unit episode on TV isn't helping at all.

You tell me about that, I am sick from the day I read that. I first read it 3 days ago ( the story ) then I get cold, then my throat screams, now my nose is full of green stuff...
Damn you M.W...


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Backfire wrote:
Really, I don't see what's the problem here. I guess some people think GK should be saints. They aren't, they are just bunch of people who have very serious job to do, and are ready to do pretty much anything to get the job done. They can't afford empathy.

So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?
And again, where does it said that they killed them? It is said that they "Turn their blades toward them", that may also mean that they only wound them to take a little blood from them to use it for protection. Until we have more detail about that we can all speculate about that, and I am sure that they will fix this over time...

And they are not so bad, they return the Eldar all remained soulstones from Malan'tai.

You see, I HIGHLY doubt half the people that have posted above actually have the codex. If it makes you physically sick then you need to come back to reality. If you thought of them as pure and just before the new codex then you never knew them. If you got the impression that they were pure and just from the current codex, then you've never read it or you read it completely wrong.

You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the Grey Knights purity and their use of sorcery is a contradiction.
It's not.