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iproxtaco wrote:You see, I HIGHLY doubt half the people that have posted above actually have the codex. If it makes you physically sick then you need to come back to reality. If you thought of them as pure and just before the new codex then you never knew them. If you got the impression that they were pure and just from the current codex, then you've never read it or you read it completely wrong.

You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the Grey Knights purity and their use of sorcery is a contradiction.
It's not.

Dude, Grey Knights are UNCORRECTABLE...it was stated in every codex, story, fluff thus far...
And all of a sudden, they need Sister blood to stay pure? While their Grand Master Draigo is in the warp for how long? And it is still pure???? + he defeated fallen Primarch and carve name of his master on his heart, in warp...
Who is here more insane?

Both stories are ridiculous, and should not be considered fluff... We will let BL and GW writers to deal with that.

If M.W. ever ask me what is my personal though about this 2 stories - I would say him:

Brother Coa wrote:
So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?

Hmm...isn't that what they do, if they can't evacuate?

The Bloodtide is not ridiculous. They kill some sisters and use sorcery to defeat a very powerful Daemonic force. The Grey Knights kill billions to keep themselves secret and use sorcery all the time in the book. There really isn't anything outstanding about this one.

Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have not read the book.

iproxtaco wrote:The Bloodtide is not ridiculous. They kill some sisters and use sorcery to defeat a very powerful Daemonic force. The Grey Knights kill billions to keep themselves secret and use sorcery all the time in the book. There really isn't anything outstanding about this one.

Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have read the book.

Thank you for the book compliment

And where it clearly said that they killed them? i could point a knife toward my cat, that doesn't meant that I would cut her...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?

Hmm...isn't that what they do, if they can't evacuate?

No they not do that...read fluff.
Lamanters and Scytes of the Emperor both stand to the last Marines together with PDF while holding off Tyranid Hive Fleet thus allowing planet populations to evacuate...Only few of the Marines escape...
Clearly you know little about Space Marines....

iproxtaco wrote:Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have not read the book.

I'd say the opposite - don't let people who have no rebuttal beyond personal insults sway your opinions on what is a thoroughly horrid Codex and easily one of the worst and most disrespectful products GW has put out in quite some time.

Brother Coa wrote:
Dude, Grey Knights are UNCORRECTABLE...it was stated in every codex, story, fluff thus far...

Problem is that you assume their 'uncorruptability' is some physical quality they have. Something which would make them immune to things like Gift of Chaos or Mind Worm (which they aren't, at least rules wise). Instead, as was made perfectly clear in both old Daemonhunter Codex and present GK codex, it's because they go through rigorous testing and conditioning which ensures that only those with sufficient resolve and resilience actually make it in the force. If they have to kill bunch of friendlies to achieve their goals, they have resolve to do it. Failure to do so is weakness and means failure of their mission. Such thing is not even unique for the GK. Other Imperials do it all the time. Inquisition Exterminates entire planets to prevent them falling to Tyranids or Daemons. Dark Angels have absolutely no problems killing anyone who finds out too much about their private businesses. etc.

I'm sure that Grey Knights Application Form has questions like this:

"Q.64: You see a Daemon in a Kindergarten. What do you do?
A. Shoot the Daemon with my Boltgun, trying not to hit kids.
B. Just take it easy. Daemons are people too.
C. Nuke it from the orbit. It's the only way to be sure."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
So that means that Space Marines must kill all of the civilians of one planet to stop Hive Fleet from consuming it rather than evacuate it?

Hmm...isn't that what they do, if they can't evacuate?

No they not do that...read fluff.
Lamanters and Scytes of the Emperor both stand to the last Marines together with PDF while holding off Tyranid Hive Fleet thus allowing planet populations to evacuate...Only few of the Marines escape...
Clearly you know little about Space Marines....

Yes, that's what they did until they discovered it was stupid and pointless. Later, it was Exterminatus as soon as it became clear Tyranids were going to eliminate resistance anyway. OK, technically it was the Inquisition doing the Exterminatus, but Space Marines played along.

Backfire wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Dude, Grey Knights are UNCORRECTABLE...it was stated in every codex, story, fluff thus far...

Problem is that you assume their 'uncorruptability' is some physical quality they have. Something which would make them immune to things like Gift of Chaos or Mind Worm (which they aren't, at least rules wise). Instead, as was made perfectly clear in both old Daemonhunter Codex and present GK codex, it's because they go through rigorous testing and conditioning which ensures that only those with sufficient resolve and resilience actually make it in the force. If they have to kill bunch of friendlies to achieve their goals, they have resolve to do it. Failure to do so is weakness and means failure of their mission. Such thing is not even unique for the GK. Other Imperials do it all the time. Inquisition Exterminates entire planets to prevent them falling to Tyranids or Daemons. Dark Angels have absolutely no problems killing anyone who finds out too much about their private businesses. etc.

I'm sure that Grey Knights Application Form has questions like this:

"Q.64: You see a Daemon in a Kindergarten. What do you do?
A. Shoot the Daemon with my Boltgun, trying not to hit kids.
B. Just take it easy. Daemon are people too.
C. Nuke it from the orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Dude, no....

a. Grey Knights are incorruptible because the have geene-seed directly from the Emperor and they have centuries of training to avoid that. This SoB "sacrifice" is pure s ...
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....
c. Inquisition don't exterminate planet full of population to stop Tyranids. They first evacuate them, letting Tyranids that they have won the day. After that, they nuke planet full of Tyranids and thus destroying both food and biomass for the Hive Fleet.
d. And of course DA kill everyone who shiff around their personal stuff - I would to.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have not read the book.

I'd say the opposite - don't let people who have no rebuttal beyond personal insults sway your opinions on what is a thoroughly horrid Codex and easily one of the worst and most disrespectful products GW has put out in quite some time.

Besides having the book and thoroughly understanding it before pointing out obvious mistakes in peoples reasoning. No personal insults were used. I never specified WHO these internet morons were, however thinking that killing innocents and using sorcery is a unique incident in the codex really does give the impression that you haven't read it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Bloodtide is not ridiculous. They kill some sisters and use sorcery to defeat a very powerful Daemonic force. The Grey Knights kill billions to keep themselves secret and use sorcery all the time in the book. There really isn't anything outstanding about this one.

Do not let the extreme opinions of internet morons sway your opinion when you clearly have read the book.

Thank you for the book compliment

And where it clearly said that they killed them? i could point a knife toward my cat, that doesn't meant that I would cut her...

I still don't think you've read it.

In the passage.

'turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle' That means they killed them. To turn your blade upon means to kill someone with your weapon.

Brother Coa wrote:
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....

Clearly you haven't read much Black Templars, Flesh Tearers, Minotaurs, etc fluff.

A Space Marine will kill anyone necessary to accomplish a mission. If that necessitates killing a hundred innocents to kill a single bad guy, regrettable but so be it. They won't slaughter wontonly for no reason, but they get to decide whatever reason they see fit...

Different chapters will have different standards. Ultramarines are generic mary-sue heroes so of course always do "the right thing", but there's plenty of fluff on Space Marines killing huge numbers of civilians to accomplish whatever goals they deem necessary. The Iron Hands actively hate civillians as they are weak and care not for their survival, the loyalist Minotaurs during the Badab war not only lay waste to several worlds and population centers, but then return to reap a great tally of slaves to continue their operations. In "Soul Hunter" the human crew of a Night Lords cruiser *and* their families, who really have no idea what's going on aside from that the Night Lords are their masters and know nothing of Chaos or the like, are butchered by the Blood Angels simply for available while the BA's make their way through the ship.

c. Inquisition don't exterminate planet full of population to stop Tyranids. They first evacuate them, letting Tyranids that they have won the day. After that, they nuke planet full of Tyranids and thus destroying both food and biomass for the Hive Fleet.

They'll evacuate what they can, if they can. That usually means a handful of important/rich/skilled people and that's it. The fluff for several editions now has been very clear that the Inquisition sacrificed billions upon billions in their exterminatus campaign to starve out the tyranids.

Brother Coa wrote:
a. Grey Knights are incorruptible because the have geene-seed directly from the Emperor and they have centuries of training to avoid that. This SoB "sacrifice" is pure s ...
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....

a. That's right. They have centuries of training about how to protect themselves from Chaos. Some of these measures may be little extreme...
b. And Inquisition, Grey Knights, Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard etc. are also Humanity's defenders. As for the Space Wolves, they themselves probably killed quite a bunch of Sisters in their brief war against Ecclesiarchy. So much for the moral high ground?

Backfire wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
a. Grey Knights are incorruptible because the have geene-seed directly from the Emperor and they have centuries of training to avoid that. This SoB "sacrifice" is pure s ...
b. Space Marines don't kill innocent people, they are Humanity's defenders. They know that killing innocent is the way of Chaos ( just see Emperor's Children and Word Eaters ). You can also see the examples of Ultramarines, Imperial Fist, Space Wolves and many other chapters....

a. That's right. They have centuries of training about how to protect themselves from Chaos. Some of these measures may be little extreme...

I understand extreme measures to achieve goals. But, during their training they're really taught to kill a number of the most faithful worshippers of the emperor, to make their armor and blades 150% pure when they were already 125% pure because due to their resolve, will, and a portion from the most pure and incorrupted gene seed? That's what makes no sense. If they had to fight their way through a mass of civilians to get to a single bad guy, that's acceptable. If they have to bomb/nuke/exterminatus an area to destroy all opposition even though it would mean the deaths of billions of people, that's also reasonable in the Grimdark reality.

But, to say that the killing of the only warriors who had enough faith to remain faithful through the Bloodtide to annoint your already holy-annointed armor with blood makes no sense. The Grey Knights are already 100% pure and incorruptible from a variety of reasons. If this is just because of their resolve, then killing the Sisters of Battle to create purity seals is just them acknowledging that they are not as incorruptible as they are made out to be. Which essentially invalidates all of the rest of the fluff.

This story is horribly written and conceived.

roadkizzle wrote:
But, to say that the killing of the only warriors who had enough faith to remain faithful through the Bloodtide to annoint your already holy-annointed armor with blood makes no sense. The Grey Knights are already 100% pure and incorruptible from a variety of reasons. If this is just because of their resolve, then killing the Sisters of Battle to create purity seals is just them acknowledging that they are not as incorruptible as they are made out to be.

There is no conflict. GK are 'incorruptible' because they take extreme measures to make sure they won't get corrupted. It does NOT mean they have some sort of AwesomePower (tm) which protects them from all influences of Chaos.

People get worked up about Mat Ward because they make it their mission to get incredibly upset over one author's representation of a fictional universe that includes space-elves, daemons, orks and giant man-eating insects.

Seriously, if the *worst* most *pressing issue* that people have in their lives is to bitch and complain about someone who writes about a made-up, sci-fi universe, then evidently this world isn't as screwed up as global news and media outlets make it out to be.

I know the internet is an outlet for nerd-rage and all, but this whole Mat Ward fiasco has gone way, way too far.

L. Wrex

I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be.
I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.

MOVE ALONG.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:People get worked up about Mat Ward because they make it their mission to get incredibly upset over one author's representation of a fictional universe that includes space-elves, daemons, orks and giant man-eating insects.

Seriously, if the *worst* most *pressing issue* that people have in their lives is to bitch and complain about someone who writes about a made-up, sci-fi universe, then evidently this world isn't as screwed up as global news and media outlets make it out to be.

I know the internet is an outlet for nerd-rage and all, but this whole Mat Ward fiasco has gone way, way too far.

L. Wrex

There's plenty of worse stuff to complain about in the world. That's always been the case, and it always will be. That doesn't mean that we should be silent about everything else simply because it isn't the worst thing present in our lives.

I have schizophrenia, but kids across the globe are starving to death every day.
GW's prices are going up, but AIDS is a rampant problem.
One state in the USA nullified collective bargaining, but there are plenty of tyrannical dictators out there oppressing their own people.

There's always something worse to complain about. That doesn't mean that nothing else is worth the effort to complain about.

I hate Mat Ward because he has taken the spotlight from Gav thrope the real villian!!!!

Chaos Space Marines will never be the same!!!!


This is a sarcastic comment aimed at the fact that people are gonna hate....so let them have their fun. I personally enjoy it.

Backfire wrote:

roadkizzle wrote:
But, to say that the killing of the only warriors who had enough faith to remain faithful through the Bloodtide to annoint your already holy-annointed armor with blood makes no sense. The Grey Knights are already 100% pure and incorruptible from a variety of reasons. If this is just because of their resolve, then killing the Sisters of Battle to create purity seals is just them acknowledging that they are not as incorruptible as they are made out to be.

There is no conflict. GK are 'incorruptible' because they take extreme measures to make sure they won't get corrupted. It does NOT mean they have some sort of AwesomePower (tm) which protects them from all influences of Chaos.

Except that's not how it's portrayed. At all. I understand that is what Matt Ward meant to say... problem is, that is not what he said.

The book doesn't go on and say 'GK are willingly to do some serious gak not to be corrupted by the warp'.... no, it says stuff like:

'An incorruptible army of genetically modified warrior'

'Purifier recruit only from those amongst their Battle-Brother whose souls are considered to be utterly incorruptible and resistant to the temptations of the Warp - even by the exacting standards of the Grey Knight '

Not only is this sloppy writting (A it really come off as 'GK are pure, purifier are even more pure and Crowe is even more pure pure pure times infinity!!!!!1!!'), but you'll notice that nowhere is Incorruptible or Pure used with quotation. Nowhere is there kind of annotation that specificy that the reason why they are incorruptible is because they know how to not be corrupted.

Ultimately, the fluff tell us they cannot be corrupted... and then they tell us a story that implies that they are quite corruptible, but were able to find a way around it. It's a contradiction, a tonal inconsistency... it's bad writing.

This would be the same thing as if after 60 years of claiming the Hulk (GK) was the strongest there is (Incorruptible), they'd write a story where he was losing an arm wrestling contest (In risk of getting corrupted) and only won because he manage to distract the other guy (Using SoB blood to protect themselves)... yes, they can still claim the Hulk never lost an arm wrestling contest (never got corrupted), but they can no longer say he's the strongest (Incorruptible).

iproxtaco wrote:
I still don't think you've read it.

In the passage.

'turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle' That means they killed them. To turn your blade upon means to kill someone with your weapon.

I have read it, who doesn't?

And does 'turn their blades upon' mean something else beside killing? Here we translate it as pointing your weapon toward someone, not necessarily killing them.

iproxtaco wrote:I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be.
I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.

MOVE ALONG.

I have never claimed myself better than anyone else, I just find it interesting to what extent one author can get scapegoated for the woes of an entire business operation. Rules are crap? Mat Ward. Fluff is crap? Mat Ward. Gameplay can be debated over? Mat Ward. It seems that this man can do no right; his next book might be god's gift to 40k, but people will probably take one look at the author, groan inwardly, and then run to a forum to complain about how much Ward has desecrated their fluff this time around.

I only got back into the GW hobby 2 years ago, so I don't know whether its a common theme to focus all ire and loathing upon a single individual, maybe its happened in the past, I don't know. I *DO* know however that when people are demanding someone's head, both figuratively and in some cases literally, it has gone a bit too far. I don't see as much anger aimed at Kirby as at Mat Ward (this past week notwithstanding) and he's doing far more to ruin the entire hobby than writing a codex or two.

But I digress, I suppose I'll add that in my opinion, which is as valuable or as worthless as you perceive it to be, Ward isn't that bad. He hasn't won many fans through his work, but its perfectly acceptable in a 'Yeah, that's kind of cool.' colloquial-esque kind of way.

L. Wrex

iproxtaco wrote:I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be.
I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.

MOVE ALONG.

It's not that easy, if someone like Humanity defenders who was always portrait like pure and righteous ( like Grey Knights ) do something like that - what would you expect from people who where seeing them this way before they do this kind of thing. I was so shocked that I got sick, really sick. And if this is Imperium's "pure and justice" I cannot imagine "corrupt and evil" side of the Imperium.

People are mad because GK where suppose to be the good guys to the bone, now look at them. And that means if M.W. has done that to GK, imagine what he can do to Tau or Necrons...

Really not sure why everyone is complaining about the sisters part. Go look up the definition of anoint for one thing. For another in the old book and the current it states in multiple places how they either erase the memories of their allies or outright kill them all to keep their secret intact. So this fluff is in perfect keeping with the GK. Draigo I will admit is over the top but overall there are a bunch of other examples of ridiculous and badly written fluff from other sources that all of this hate seems frankly very childish. But then what else would you expect from people playing with toy soldiers. (this is supposed to be sarcasm, not flamey. Really hate that I need to clarify it at all. /rolls eyes)

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I really hate people who post these kinds of things. Who the hell cares if people get worked up about this kind of stuff? Understand that this is a forum for discussing this kind of thing. Do you think you are above some people by posting that kind of comment? That you have some sort of 'higher understanding' just because you have the arrogance to assume that you are the only one to 'raise' yourself up above the argument and post some apparently witty or intelligent comment? With over 1000 posts and gallery images, YOU are involved quite deeply in the hobby, it's an integral part of many peoples lives, we all have the right to argue as passionately as we want, it certainly does not effect you. Just because you feel your needless input is wanted does not make you better than anyone else here and it definitely is not the 'discussion ending' post you want it to be.
I may argue and disagree with many people on this forum, but I find that insulting that you think yourself better than the rest.

MOVE ALONG.

It's not that easy, if someone like Humanity defenders who was always portrait like pure and righteous ( like Grey Knights ) do something like that - what would you expect from people who where seeing them this way before they do this kind of thing. I was so shocked that I got sick, really sick. And if this is Imperium's "pure and justice" I cannot imagine "corrupt and evil" side of the Imperium.

People are mad because GK where suppose to be the good guys to the bone, now look at them. And that means if M.W. has done that to GK, imagine what he can do to Tau or Necrons...

I don't understand, why are you replying to my post? My criticism of that guy really has nothing to do with the Grey Knights or Mat Ward.

The Grey Knights have never been portrayed as the good guys. Never. Your assumption is likely taken from some other thread, where you saw one guy say they were not as bad in the past, not from any source you've seen. They are nor 'pure and just' in the sense you think. They do what is necessary, putting their souls on the line to protect the human race whatever the cost, by any means.

Good guys to the bone? Wha!? Again, they have never been like that.
What will Mat Ward do to the Tau? If Mat Ward can take the Grey Knights, and KEEP THE SAME IMAGE, I'd have no problem with him KEEPING THE SAME IMAGE when doing Tau or the Necrons.

Brother Coa wrote:
People are mad because GK where suppose to be the good guys to the bone, now look at them.

Since when? They defend humanity as a *whole* from the predations of the warp. They'll massacre civilians and children if they think it's necessary to protect even more people from the influence of the Daemonic. The will attack and destroy those they have fought alongside to keep hidden and secret knowledge of the Ruinous Powers. They are ruthless and determined. They are not "good guys to the bone", they are dread warriors who do whatever it takes.

That said, the Sisters story was dumb not because it was the GK's attacking other imperial forces, but because, at least fluffwise, they don't need that kind of protection and the sisters would have made better allies in the fight, and smearing blood on themselves doesn't really sound like an Inquisition-y/Grey Knights thing to do.

Had they turned on and destroyed the sisters after the battle to keep the forbidden knowledge they gained a secret, nobody would have had an issue with that, if fits the GK's fluff perfectly.

But the way they did it made them sound more like Khornate cultists than the Inquisitions Chamber Militiant.

And yet the use of sorcery inverted in purpose to fight the forces of the Warp is also entirely in-keeping with the general concept if the Grey Knights, in the past and now. They use whatever methods that are effective, regardless of what it is. It's something a lot of people just seem to miss no matter how many times they 'read their codex' or read it on a post

Mno one can be mad at Matt Ward, after all he is working on The Sixth Edition Bible right now.....

iproxtaco wrote:And yet the use of sorcery inverted in purpose to fight the forces of the Warp is also entirely in-keeping with the general concept if the Grey Knights, in the past and now. They use whatever methods that are effective, regardless of what it is. It's something a lot of people just seem to miss no matter how many times they 'read their codex' or read it on a post

Except that the use of Sorcery always corrupts eventually. To me that is one of the themes of Warhammer 40K. Trucking with the powers of the enemy always corrupts no matter what your intentions may be. The Path to Hell and all that. Why should Grey Knight techniques be special to only them? Surely Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can know them too? Everyone of them who uses these powers is always corrupted in the end. It is a radical change in how Grey Knights operated since the discriminated previously on associating with anybody who used daemonhosts or sorcery. Its a little off putting. After all the Primarchs are mighty beings and they fell to chaos too. I 'm fairly certain that Magnus and Fulgrim did not readily embrace Chaos. Magnus was well prepared and knew the dangers and he is still a daemon primarch now right?

Backfire wrote:I'm sure that Grey Knights Application Form has questions like this:

"Q.64: You see a Daemon in a Kindergarten. What do you do?
A. Shoot the Daemon with my Boltgun, trying not to hit kids.
B. Just take it easy. Daemons are people too.
C. Nuke it from the orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Haha, using that format, C would be the right answer through the whole test.

Honestly, I think there is a lot of confusion. I did not read the old codex, and have not read the new grey knight codex. But from the way others talked about grey knights, and the stories that I had read, the G.K were always portrayed as to "paladin" example that's been used already. Even with shining armour. I know they would kill people to save a whole planet and what not, as all space marines do, and inquisition, but there is a big difference in the S.o.B story for two reasons. 1. They are killing them to become more pure from chaos, which wold simply mean they are not incorruptible as has been said several times. 2. They are not killing civilians, they killed S.o.B who had been defending the planet waiting for aid. It is like showing up to some school yard brawl where 3 f your friends are fighting 10 guys and you just kick your friends in the nuts and use them as human shields to run through the 10 bullies. it is just f'd up no matter how you cut it. also, if it is OK to kill your own allies then that means g.k can not be trusted at all. so f them. i would not want them to show up to my battle they might turn around and kill me. so thank you mat ward for making me hate grey knights.

also. i think the major reasons have been hit at this points.

1. Fantasy rules? I don't play fantasy but someone brought it up
2. Ultramarine's being super mega special awesome cool fun idols of all space marines
3. Grey Knights being just like everyone else, and thus not special.
4. Over redundant to the extreme such as Nemesis and Blood

iproxtaco wrote:
The Grey Knights have never been portrayed as the good guys. Never. Your assumption is likely taken from some other thread, where you saw one guy say they were not as bad in the past, not from any source you've seen. They are nor 'pure and just' in the sense you think. They do what is necessary, putting their souls on the line to protect the human race whatever the cost, by any means.

Good guys to the bone? Wha!? Again, they have never been like that.
What will Mat Ward do to the Tau? If Mat Ward can take the Grey Knights, and KEEP THE SAME IMAGE, I'd have no problem with him KEEPING THE SAME IMAGE when doing Tau or the Necrons.

And putting not just your life, but your soul for the protection of the entire race is not just? Yes their methods are harsh ( see 1'st war for Armageddon ) but in the end it is they who gave their lives to save Humanity and doing necessary thing to that others would do with great burden. This with SoB just destroyed their image that they ignite fear int daemons and that daemons are hurt by their very presence. And why killing potential allies for something your don't need?

Earlier I saw them as saviors of man, now I see them as butchers. How is that for same image?
So in the next codec, if Matt say that Tau are killing every Human on a planet that won't except the grater good would it change the way how people see the Tau?

Brother Coa wrote:And putting not just your life, but your soul for the protection of the entire race is not just? Yes their methods are harsh ( see 1'st war for Armageddon ) but in the end it is they who gave their lives to save Humanity and doing necessary thing to that others would do with great burden. This with SoB just destroyed their image that they ignite fear int daemons and that daemons are hurt by their very presence. And why killing potential allies for something your don't need?

Earlier I saw them as saviors of man, now I see them as butchers. How is that for same image?
So in the next codec, if Matt say that Tau are killing every Human on a planet that won't except the grater good would it change the way how people see the Tau?

Have you tried reading the fluff that you claim to know about?

We've already established that you don't know a lot about previous GK fluff and think the the new book is a departure without it actually being.

Do you know that in the LAST tau codex, the Tau killed every human on Nimbosa, right? P15, Tau Empire. When the relief force arrived too late, the Tau commander massacred every single member of it. No quarter given.

So yeah, maybe brush up on your fluff a bit.