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Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
The Grey Knights have never been portrayed as the good guys. Never. Your assumption is likely taken from some other thread, where you saw one guy say they were not as bad in the past, not from any source you've seen. They are nor 'pure and just' in the sense you think. They do what is necessary, putting their souls on the line to protect the human race whatever the cost, by any means.

Good guys to the bone? Wha!? Again, they have never been like that.
What will Mat Ward do to the Tau? If Mat Ward can take the Grey Knights, and KEEP THE SAME IMAGE, I'd have no problem with him KEEPING THE SAME IMAGE when doing Tau or the Necrons.

And putting not just your life, but your soul for the protection of the entire race is not just?

Earlier I saw them as saviors of man, now I see them as butchers. How is that for same image?
So in the next codec, if Matt say that Tau are killing every Human on a planet that won't except the grater good would it change the way how people see the Tau?

It's not when you kill the populations of entire planets to save others. By any means necessary. BY ANY MEANS. They were not just and pure in the same way YOU thought they were.
God. They have never been portrayed as 'saviours', therefore you did not know who the Grey Knights were. They have always done this kind of thing. You have never read about the Grey Knights before the new codex if you thought that they never killed people to protect humanity as a whole. Being a Protector is different from being a saviour.

What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.

iproxtaco wrote:
What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.

Oops, page 15 of Tau Empire called and said that Tau are bad guys. :(

Only saw your post after mine was gone. No need for Mat Ward to write them that way then.

iproxtaco wrote:

What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.

That would be like the Imperium wiping out every Xenos on a planet.

Which, you know, they do all the time, and tried to do to the Tau.

iproxtaco wrote:Only saw your post after mine was gone. No need for Mat Ward to write them that way then.

Wasn't picking on you, but on his example of the Tau.

It is again people thinking they know what canon and fluff is and being wrong. Then they get in a snit over MW when he hasn't changed anything.

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.

That would be like the Imperium wiping out every Xenos on a planet.

Which, you know, they do all the time, and tried to do to the Tau.

Kinda missed the point though didn't ya? I THOUGHT that the Tau never did that, however, I have been corrected. They are the same as the Imperium.

iproxtaco wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

What? YES! That would absolutely change the way people see the Tau! At the moment they are a more moral and 'good' force in 40k. Killing the innocent population of a planet would be very different from what they do now. It would make them WORSE than the Imperium. They at least don't kill the entire population of a human planet for no reason.

That would be like the Imperium wiping out every Xenos on a planet.

Which, you know, they do all the time, and tried to do to the Tau.

Kinda missed the point though didn't ya? I THOUGHT that the Tau never did that, however, I have been corrected. They are the same as the Imperium.

Someone obviously didn't get their Wheaties this morning.

Yeah, it makes me see sense, not lined with sterilisation drugs.

pretre wrote:
Have you tried reading the fluff that you claim to know about?

We've already established that you don't know a lot about previous GK fluff and think the the new book is a departure without it actually being.

Do you know that in the LAST tau codex, the Tau killed every human on Nimbosa, right? P15, Tau Empire. When the relief force arrived too late, the Tau commander massacred every single member of it. No quarter given.

So yeah, maybe brush up on your fluff a bit.

I know about GK what I have read on Lexicanum. And the few battles they have been with. I know that they did send all of Armageddon population with Imperial Guard defending the planet to camps and interrogation without second thought.

And I didn't heard about Nimbosa at all, there is no mention of that on Lexicanum and the Tau fans claim that that was actually IG that they where killed not civilians.

And I know my fluff, but my PERSONAL view of GK has nothing to do with the fluff. I see them as a crusaders of the righteous.

And oh, you support the point where they kill innocence to AVOID corruption, even if the fluff state that they are incorruptible by any way? That even daemons are burning when they are around?
And their Grand Master is in the warp for how long? Don't have much pure to slay there to make yourself incorruptible, and yet he is still pure?




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pretre wrote: Then they get in a snit over MW when he hasn't changed anything.

Like Necons all of a sudden decide to be nice and tem up? Only to simply go away after that?
Strange behavior for death brining machines...

Brother Coa wrote:I know about GK what I have read on Lexicanum.

Lexicanum is just like wikipedia. It is not a source but an aggregator of other sources. It is prone to have incorrect information.

And I didn't heard about Nimbosa at all, there is no mention of that on Lexicanum and the Tau fans claim that that was actually IG that they where killed not civilians.

Page 15 Tau Empire.
"Led by Commander Brightsword, the full weight of the Tau fell upon Nimbosa and the colonists fought to the last, not a single soul surviving the final attack."
And later regarding the force that arrived too late:
"Brightsword trapped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter."

And I know my fluff, but my PERSONAL view of GK has nothing to do with the fluff. I see them as a crusaders of the righteous.

So this whole thing has nothing to do with the facts, but with your PERSONAL view of what they should be. Ooookay.

And oh, you support the point where they kill innocence to AVOID corruption, even if the fluff state that they are incorruptible by any way? That even daemons are burning when they are around?

The fluff says that their SOULS are near incorruptible and that no GK has fallen YET. It does not, and this is an important point, say their bodies are incorruptible. They can still be subjected to the physical ravages of chaos. No fluff has said they are immune to that. Guess what the Bloodtide was? Oh yeah, physical effects like exploding in a shower of gore.

And their Grand Master is in the warp for how long? Don't have much pure to slay there to make yourself incorruptible, and yet he is still pure?

Body vs Soul. There is a difference between an incorruptible mind and an incorruptible body.

pretre wrote: Then they get in a snit over MW when he hasn't changed anything.

Like Necons all of a sudden decide to be nice and tem up? Only to simply go away after that?
Strange behavior for death brining machines...

Have you read any of the newer fluff for Necrons since oh, I don't know... 5th edition. They are changing quite a bit. Not to mention they have always been unreadable and unknowable in their motives. And the BA who was there was the oldest, most war weary BA ever who longs for death but knows that his job isn't done. Of any BA, it would be he that would walk away.

Stop regurgitating what you heard on the interwebs and go read the actual books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P179 of the BRB for information on how lords have personality and memory and how not all of them are raving deathmachines. Also, read Fall of Damnos to find out more about how they plot against each other and have many of the same motives as mortals.

Page 15 Tau Empire.
"Led by Commander Brightsword, the full weight of the Tau fell upon Nimbosa and the colonists fought to the last, not a single soul surviving the final attack."
And later regarding the force that arrived too late:
"Brightsword trapped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter."

Hi, Tau fanboy speaking! Just here to say Brightsword was punished for those actions!

But srsly, every faction in 40k is grimdark. It's the way the game is.

That about sums it up. Personally Im a fan but the common thing is people dislike it.

anon/rassilon wrote:
Hi, Tau fanboy speaking! Just here to say Brightsword was punished for those actions!

Conjecture. The book says that 'there are those who believe it was to be censured'.

But srsly, every faction in 40k is grimdark. It's the way the game is.

Yep. Which further proves the point that people often rail against 'changes' to the fluff which are not changes.

Nerivant wrote:It's not everyone being pissed at Mat Ward, it's Mat Ward pissed at everyone for adding an extra 't' to his first name.

Brother Coa wrote:Dude, even the Wikipedia get his name wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Ward_(game_designer)

ShatteredBlade wrote:The extra T is for terrible.

Toastedandy wrote:His names Matthew not Mat or Matt
Everyone hates him because he does'nt use the search function before posting a thread

Xarian wrote:He goes by Matt, apparently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Ward_%28game_designer%29

Let's stop this discussion and just call him Mad Ward

Oops, page 15 of Tau Empire called and said that Tau are bad guys. :(

Oops, page 15 called again, forgot to mention that Brightsword was sacked immediately after that, reputedly for cruel behavior. Other sources (not yet confirmed by me) continue that he was later hunted down and killed by Shadowsun while trying to defect to the Farsight enclave. The BL novel Killteam has the version, that Brightsword was killed on Ethereals behalf by a human kill team.
Won't go into more detail here, let's concentrate on the Ward hate

Kroothawk wrote:

Oops, page 15 of Tau Empire called and said that Tau are bad guys. :(

Oops, page 15 called again, forgot to mention that Brightsword was sacked immediately after that, reputedly for cruel behavior.

He was recalled. Not sacked. It was rumored that he was sacked/censured.

Other sources (not yet confirmed by me) continue that he was later hunted down and killed by Shadowsun while trying to defect to the Farsight enclave. The BL novel Killteam has the version, that Brightsword was killed on Ethereals behalf by a human kill team.
Won't go into more detail here, let's concentrate on the Ward hate

Hmm. Haven't read Killteam, that's kind of interesting. Beside the point though, Tau are just as evil as the rest of us.

What is all this argument about which 40k race is good or evil? They are all just snack food for the Hive Mind.

Brother Coa wrote:

pretre wrote:
Have you tried reading the fluff that you claim to know about?

We've already established that you don't know a lot about previous GK fluff and think the the new book is a departure without it actually being.

Do you know that in the LAST tau codex, the Tau killed every human on Nimbosa, right? P15, Tau Empire. When the relief force arrived too late, the Tau commander massacred every single member of it. No quarter given.

So yeah, maybe brush up on your fluff a bit.

I know about GK what I have read on Lexicanum. And the few battles they have been with. I know that they did send all of Armageddon population with Imperial Guard defending the planet to camps and interrogation without second thought.

And I didn't heard about Nimbosa at all, there is no mention of that on Lexicanum and the Tau fans claim that that was actually IG that they where killed not civilians.

And I know my fluff, but my PERSONAL view of GK has nothing to do with the fluff. I see them as a crusaders of the righteous.

And oh, you support the point where they kill innocence to AVOID corruption, even if the fluff state that they are incorruptible by any way? That even daemons are burning when they are around?
And their Grand Master is in the warp for how long? Don't have much pure to slay there to make yourself incorruptible, and yet he is still pure?

So all your info is from a single small lexicanum page? Trumped by the codex.
Right, you ignore all the fluff, and form an opinion of them which is the near opposite from what the Grey Knights actually are. Fan ing-tastic. You now have no opinion.

In all honesty, I don't hate the guy, I just dislike the raving mad ideas he creates for his fluff and how things are just numbed down and always made to look the bestest for all the little kiddies while those who have read actual literature and know good story writing roll their eyes and mutter 'here we go again...'

It's like the Twilight idea of vampires compared to the originals. People think now vampires are sparkly, large foreheaded lovers of weak, unattractive girls with a mary-sue complex while those who lived in the time before hear of vampires and immediately grab for the garlic, cross and shut their windows lest they invite them inside.

Some view it as amazing work in writing and love it's idea while many others can't bear it on how it destroys the established idea of what it should be.

iproxtaco wrote:
Right, you ignore all the fluff, and form an opinion of them which is the near opposite from what the Grey Knights actually are. Fan ing-tastic. You now have no opinion.

And what is the fluff? They are still Daemonhunters, they are still one of the most powerful Space Marines and they are still psykers. They are still fighting Chaos and they are still the most loyal and zealous Space Marines in existence... ( no fluff crush there ) And how is that opposite please?
I only never imagine that they would kill in cold blood their allies and use their blood to shield themselves against Chaos? I thought the only way to stop Chaos is to resist it, not going it's ways to defeat it. I don't ignore fluff except the SoB one simply because it's to hard to accept, Armageddon population was one thing but this.... Well It seems that they are not the good guys after all....

And how can you tell someone that he cant have any more opinion Now you are just stupid.


And you all saying that you would not do the same? To kill hundreds to let billions live? I would...go and tell me now I am not the good guy...
When it comes to the stake of the entire race personalities don't matter anymore. GK know that, SoB knows that, SM and IG to.
Anyway, I can't wait for the next Tau, Necron or DE codex to have a real laugh

Ironsight wrote:

Asuron wrote:
4. naming convetions, Blood fists, bloodstrike Missiles, Nemesis forcesword, nemsis daemonhammer

Have you read Phil Kelly’s Space Wolf codex? It’s full of Wolf Wolves riding giant Wolves wielding Wolf Claws and wearing Wolf-tooth necklaces. And as svendrex says, Nemesis weapons are a specific family of weapons with their own unique abilities.

Asuron wrote:

Except if you read the previous SW book they already had most of that stuff. Wolf Claws and TWC are the only new things with Wolf in them and what else are you gonna call them? Though i wouldn't miss TWC if they weren't in the book.

they'd have no problem killing their allies in cold blood, just not before the fighting was over. The issue isn't the GK's killing other loyal Imperial forces, it's the way they did it. Engaging in what looks and sounds like a Khornate blood ritual is ridiculous. Silencing witnesses after a battle is far more believeable and fitting. They have a track record of that and it shows just as well that the GK's will go to any lengths to accomplish their goals (Ward's stated intention of that story in his WD interview), they didn't need to do what is normally associated with chaos cultists to gain a power they already supposedly have.

Vaktathi wrote:they'd have no problem killing their allies in cold blood, just not before the fighting was over. The issue isn't the GK's killing other loyal Imperial forces, it's the way they did it. Engaging in what looks and sounds like a Khornate blood ritual is ridiculous. Silencing witnesses after a battle is far more believeable and fitting. They have a track record of that and it shows just as well that the GK's will go to any lengths to accomplish their goals (Ward's stated intention of that story in his WD interview), they didn't need to do what is normally associated with chaos cultists to gain a power they already supposedly have.

But everyone here agreed that that's what GK do all the time...

They do whatever is necessary. That is apparently fine. Until of course, it actually comes down to them doing whatever is necessary, in which case it's apparently not fine.

They use to blood of the innocent SoB as a reagent in a mixture which they use to anoint their armour with. This is sorcery.
Sorcery and psychic powers are the two most effective things when combating the Daemonic. The Grey Knights use any means necessary to do defeat the Daemonic. It really isn't that bad.


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You aren't Brother Coa, you have no opinion.

Mkay, thinking about it more and having gotten some sleep, I'll admit my former mental image of Grey Knights as sci-fi paladins was unfounded, since I haven't read either of their Codices.

Doesn't make what they do any easier to stomach than what Chaos worshippers do.

Not that it's what Chaos worshippers do though.

iproxtaco wrote:Not that it is what Chaos worshippers.

Probably not. They'd give the blood to Khorne, and let's not even get into what Slaanesh-worshippers would do.

Still doesn't make what the GKs did right, and it's still nauseating.

But I guess that's one of the things about the grimdark theme that have my WH40k-related roleplays with friends being far, far more bright and happy.

iproxtaco wrote:They do whatever is necessary. That is apparently fine. Until of course, it actually comes down to them doing whatever is necessary, in which case it's apparently not fine.

They use to blood of the innocent SoB as a reagent in a mixture which they use to anoint their armour with. This is sorcery.
Sorcery and psychic powers are the two most effective things when combating the Daemonic. The Grey Knights use any means necessary to do defeat the Daemonic. It really isn't that bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You aren't Brother Coa, you have no opinion.

As I said before...

The fluff tell us they cannot be corrupted... and then they tell us a story that implies that they are quite corruptible, but were able to find a way around it. It's a contradiction, a tonal inconsistency... it's bad writing.

This would be the same thing as if after 60 years of claiming the Hulk (GK) was the strongest there is (Incorruptible), they'd write a story where he was losing an arm wrestling contest (In risk of getting corrupted) and only won because he manage to distract the other guy (Using SoB blood to protect themselves)... yes, they can still claim the Hulk never lost an arm wrestling contest (never got corrupted), but they can no longer say he's the strongest (Incorruptible).

There's no problem with them doing whatever is necessary... the problem is when they do something that the book has told us dozen of time should not be necessary just for shock value. Again, poor writing.

So it seems like everyone here is refusing to change. One side says "no the GK using Khoric Blood Ritual was swrong no matter how you cut it" the other side saying "The blood thing is no different from anything else GK do, they slaughter people all the time to the salvation of humanity". Personally, it does seem odd that the incorruptible need extra protection from chaos. As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.

Regardless, this thread has turned into a debate over GK. When it should be about why people don't like Ward, which the GK codex is just a piece of, in addition to the other various cases where Ward has severely maned a codex

yankees4life3 wrote:As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.

How do you figure? If it's a physical sickness, their mind and spirit aren't going to protect them.

Nerivant wrote:

yankees4life3 wrote:As for this whole Spirit vs Body debate, If you are pure of spirit than your body will be pure also, so the body being morphed by chaos wouldn't make much sense if they are so pure in spirit.

How do you figure? If it's a physical sickness, their mind and spirit aren't going to protect them.

"We shield ourselves with the armour of contempt"
A thinking among Imperial scholars that a strong and faithful mind can resist physical taint.
It also seems to work to a point...