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The strongest and toughest were Vulkan and Ferus Manus.


This doesn't make either the "daddy" per se, but answers some questions posed in this thread.

DarknessEternal wrote:But Lion also did defeat Leman Russ in a fist fight.

Russ stopped fighting and started laughing, and the Lion sucker-punched him. Hardly a "defeat".


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DEUS VULT wrote:No love for Montarion being tenacious and tough?

Mortarion is the biggest punk of them all. I mean, he not only got schooled by an Astartes, he had a dude's name carved into his heart. Now that's getting served.


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purplefood wrote:Did we also forget that Magnus was a daemon primarch (Or at least powered up by Tzeentch) at that point and after that got trounced by Russ to the point he ran away?

Not at that point, he wasn't. I'd be forced to agree with the prior sentiment that in a no-holds-barred fight, no one could stand up to Magnus.

Leman Russ pretty much kick ass....

The lost primarch...
Chuck Norris!

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Ka'banda broke his legs at the ambush. Sangy broke his back, with the broken legs (I believe)

If someone can photoshop a picture of Sangy meme style with the text
"Ka'Banda broke my legs

I broke his back "
I would be your best friend/ give you a cookie

Ka'banda fought him on signus prime, broke his legs, threw him to the ground and left him alive.
Sanguinus's legs healed on the way to Terra.
They fought again, and Sanguinus won, breaking Ka'banda's back across his healed legs.

Sanguinus is still an almighty badass. If I had to choose, I would pick Angron, the only Primarch who can get sh*t done, Or Lorgar, the other Primarch who got sh*t done, but left it to his incompetent brother to finish, who then failed. Lorgar's also a psyker, with a kickass mace, golden skin.

Mortarian. Come near me, let me reap you with my scythe. Oh and I'm probably the toughest overall, seeing as i grew up on a planet that tries to kill you with the freaking air.

Plus, he'll just keep going and going and going.

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:The way the title was phrased I was afraid you were asking who their father was

But for toughest?
Sanguinius

Not only did he fight for an extremely long amount of time, single-handedly, with broken legs, he broke Ka'banda's back over his knee.

Ya know, with his broken leg. Pretty bad ass.

He then went on to fight Horus, with no rest in between.

This isn't entirely accurate. Ka'banda broke his legs on Signus Prime and they slaughtered the Blood Angels then left the planet once the Blood Angels started to kick ass again. Back en route to Terra is when Sanguinius recovered from his injuries and it was at the battle of the Eternity Gate where Ka'banda and he fought again.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:The strongest and toughest were Vulkan and Ferus Manus.

Spoiler:

This is stated in the short story "Forgotten Sons" by Nick Kyme in Age of Darkness.
During the battle of the dropsite massacres Vulkan is throwing Demolisher tanks and other tanks around with his bare hands and it states:

Age of Darkness wrote:He was not the most gifted swordsman, nor was he a master strategist or a psyker of any note, but his strength and fortitude... in that, the Eighteenth Primarch was unrivaled.

It then goes on to say that if Ferus Manus were alive there may have been cause for debate, but since he his head is separated from his body the argument is settled.

This doesn't make either the "daddy" per se, but answers some questions posed in this thread.

The problem is with the Primarchs is it depends on who is writing for them.

Mr Kyme does a great job, but is a writer who predominantly writes Salamander material, so could be biased.

It's also fairly difficult to pick one and say they are the best as they aren't all comparable to each other.

In terms of strength then I would probably agree with Mr Kyme and say that Ferrus and Vulkan were probably up there, as well as Magnus and Russ.

From a combat perspective Angron was probably the best, probably not the most skilled and fancy, but the one to always get the job done. Gav Thorpe says in 'Ravens Flight' that only perhaps Horus or Sanguinius could beat him.

Skilled fighter would maybe be Fulgrim or Sanguinius.

Tactical mind would be Alpharius, Corax or Guilliman. Horus praised Alpharius on numerous occasions and apparently used much of Corax's tactics in war. Guilliman wrote the Codex.

Toughtest maybe Dorn, Mortarion or Perturabo.

But thinking about it properly when typing this the best would have to be Horus. He was the brightest and most gifted of them all, he had the most victories, he bought Legions to betray the Emperor. He was a master manipulator and the Emperor chose him to be Warmaster for a reason.

And yet who manipulated him? Lorgar. Who was in turn manipulated by Kor Phaeron. But Lorgar was the architect.

iproxtaco wrote:And yet who manipulated him? Lorgar. Who was in turn manipulated by Kor Phaeron. But Lorgar was the architect.

Despite of his turning he was still the greatest before the Heresy.

I would also disagree that it was Lorgar who manipulated him, but there you go. Horus was having doubts before Erebus got involved and it was the whispers of Chaos that pushed Horus into betrayal. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were the architects, they never let go of the old ways of Cholchis, they planted the seeds and duped their own Primarch into taking back what they held above the Imperial Truth.

Lorgar wasn't much more than a glorified preacher and a bit dumb to boot. If Horus had not taken Chaos by the hand then Lorgar and the Word Bearers would've lasted 5 minutes if they rebelled openly.

It's difficult to know which of the three, Erebus, Kor Phaeron or Lorgar, actually started the Heresy. They all manipulated. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were largely together as a pair. The Emperor chastised Lorgar, the other two manipulated Lorgar into seeking the Chaos Gods. Lorgar then I suppose took command, but was still manipulated by the pair to a lesser extent. He sent Erebus to Horus, I guess it was at Istvaan that he let them go and went off by himself.

iproxtaco wrote:To be honest, it wasn't really even Lorgar. It was Erebus first, Lorgar was just a figure-head before he truly turned to Chaos, after which he was still manipulated by Kor Phaeron, until Istvaan.

Hopefully we see Lorgar take the mantle properly and become the true son of the four.

He's a bit wimpy at the moment.

I like him because he's the most human of all the Primarchs. He also looks damn badass as a Daemon.
It's odd that he isn't Chaos's favored. Abaddon? Who is he? Some random First Captain. Lorgar is a Daemon Primarch and Architect of The Heresy. Move over top-knot.

iproxtaco wrote:I like him because he's the most human of all the Primarchs. He also looks damn badass as a Daemon.
It's odd that he isn't Chaos's favored. Abaddon? Who is he? Some random First Captain. Lorgar is a Daemon Primarch and Architect of The Heresy. Move over top-knot.

Lorgar will lead again eventually, he'll be the one to topple Abaddon. He just needs to do some soul searching first.

Either that or he realises that he has been wrong twice now and that his actions have made the Emperor a God. That must smart somewhat.

And yeah, he does look badass as a Daemon Prince.

Alright, so he didn't have broken legs when he killed Ka'Banda (d'oh) However, he still did all the rest of the stuff

I have decided to model my own Lorgar just because of this conversation and add him to my Word Bearers army, leading the Gal Vorbak (Read First Heretic). He would have so much more power than Abbadon, and command a legion of around 100,000 Chaos Space Marines, obviously less depending on the number of casualties they took during the Heresy and over the years since, and countless Chaos converts and zealots in the cults across the Imperium.

Meh, so what if he didn't have broken legs, he still crushed a Bloodthirster with his bear hands. The Only ones to have done anything of the sort are The Grey Knights although I can't confirm at this moment, and Dante, but that was with an Axe, and against Scarbrand. And there was Ann'grath, but that was an inquisitor with a nice sword and massive shield backed up by a lot of Grey Knights. So, there may have been a few other incidents, but Sanguinus did it with only his hands, whilst nearly single-handedly holding the Gates of the Emperors Palace against everything Horus could through at it.

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh, so what if he didn't have broken legs, he still crushed a Bloodthirster with his bear hands. The Only ones to have done anything of the sort are The Grey Knights although I can't confirm at this moment.

Well Fulgrim killed an Avatar with his bare hands, as well as killed another Primarch.

This is where it starts to turn into a my Primarch is better than yours thread

Damn, forgot about that. Then what did Fulgrim do? pussied out at the end, he only killed Ferrus when the Daemon in his sword took control. Remember that Calgar beat an Avatar to death as well.

I guess most of the Primarchs have done something pretty spectacular.

I heard Russ killed a titan... on his own.
Frankly they have all done some ridiculous stuff...

iproxtaco wrote:Damn, forgot about that. The what did Fulgrim do? pussied out at the end, he only killed Ferrus when the Daemon in his sword took control. Remeber that Clagar beat an Avatar to death as well.

Yeah, but he did have him beat at that point, he just couldn't bring himself to kill his best friend.

iproxtaco wrote:I guess most of the Primarchs have done something pretty spectacular.

Ferrus Manus was supposed to have carried a whole Mountain Range on his back during a contest with a Storm Giant

purplefood wrote:I heard Russ killed a titan... on his own.

I can never find the reference for this, it's up there with finding the Lion and the Wolf story. Looks as if it is in WD 233.

Oh look, its "this" thread again.





And for your information, the answer is Sanguinius, he was the only one that had the foresight that if he allowed himself to be slain so that the Emperor would become mortally wounded, then it would solve the unemployment problem for millenia to come as everyone would be able or forceable be made to join the army. Smart guy, you could almost say he was a visionary

Alpharius was the boss man - he just needed more time to show off how superior he was.

Its so difficult to say who would be number 1 in a fight, pretty much all of them are epic badasses. As an unmentioned darkhorse, how about Konrad Curze? They name just screams epic-badassery, and he had freakin' claws!

HellsGuardian316 wrote:
Oh look, its "this" thread again.

And with the revelations and progression of the Horus Heresy series i'm pretty sure you'll keep seing "this" thread again.

Nevermind ey

Curze rocks hard, and even though I like lorgar the most out of all the primarchs, he did get beaten up by Corax, who is also one hard dude. But Curze was better IMO.

iproxtaco wrote:And yet who manipulated him? Lorgar. Who was in turn manipulated by Kor Phaeron. But Lorgar was the architect.

Being stabbed by an ancient alien demon weapon that allowed him to be possessed by Chaos to some extent is hardly "manipulation".

Lorgar was a crybaby ("Waah, my daddy doesn't pay enough attention to me as I flaunt all his edicts about secularism!"), and has spent every moment since the Heresy crying himself to sleep in his tower. /lame

Omegus wrote:
Lorgar was a crybaby ("Waah, my daddy doesn't pay enough attention to me as I flaunt all his edicts about secularism!"), and has spent every moment since the Heresy crying himself to sleep in his tower. /lame

This is after his father let him do it for countless years without reprimand or reproach, I think anyone would be a bit annoyed at this and many of the Primarchs had issues with the Emperor. True, most of these if not all of these were the ones that would be traitors.

Omegus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:But Lion also did defeat Leman Russ in a fist fight.

Russ stopped fighting and started laughing, and the Lion sucker-punched him. Hardly a "defeat".

One of them walked away. One of them was unconscious for an entire day. Just sayin'.

At least a day - wasnt it until the Dark Angel fleet departed for more crusades? I imagine it takes a couple of days to get an invasion fleet space worthy. Thats quite the sucker punch

Omegus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And yet who manipulated him? Lorgar. Who was in turn manipulated by Kor Phaeron. But Lorgar was the architect.

Being stabbed by an ancient alien demon weapon that allowed him to be possessed by Chaos to some extent is hardly "manipulation".

Lorgar was a crybaby ("Waah, my daddy doesn't pay enough attention to me as I flaunt all his edicts about secularism!"), and has spent every moment since the Heresy crying himself to sleep in his tower. /lame

Although that's not actually how things happened. The Sword was made by the Kinebrach, the process of making it or if it's connected to Chaos is not specified or even hinted at.
The sword also just wounded Horus. No possession occurred. Horus willingly turned to Chaos.
Who got the sword? Erebus. Who placed the sword in hands of a traitor? Erebus. Who persuaded the Luna Wolves to seek the help of the Serpent Lodge? Erebus. Who then persuaded Horus during the Ritual and guided him afterwards? Erebus. Why was Erebus there in the first place and who told him what to do? Lorgar.
A few things about Lorgar. He's a Daemon Prince. He's in command of one of the largest and most unified and powerful Legions that exists. He was the Architect of the Heresy, chosen of all the Chaos Gods.
Oh yeah, and he's not dead or missing. Horus, Konrad, Alpharius (maybe, maybe not) and most of the loyalists are dead, the rest of those are missing. So, only five traitor Primarchs are alive. Fulgrim isn't even in control of his own body. Got a source that says he weeps with sorrow? He meditates. He's the only other who could possibly do what Abbadon does, and he'd do it better.

The anatheme does more than "just wound", it essentially killed the essence of Horus, leaving behind a shell that was easy to lure over to Chaos.

And I doubt he could do better, since his Legion is unremarkable when it comes to martial prowess, psychic ability, or even insidious cult-mongering.

Yeah, he's still alive... because he doesn't do anything.

It didn't kill the essence of Horus, it was particularly potent at reversing the physiology of his Primarch body. It was effectively designed to kill him, becoming his Nemesis. It left him unconscious and vulnerable, not hollow.

Yeah? His legion numbers a lot more than all the others, is more organised than most of them. What do you mean 'unremarkable'? As in, they aren't as strong as the World Eaters or Space Wolves? And? You don't have to be strong to be great. They were still Astartes.
Fairly effective at raising cults, it is their primary goal as a Legion, they often contend with The Alpha Legion because of it

There's only two who do something. He's alive, powerful, favored, the majority are missing, or dead.

To be honest, there is no argument. Lorgar is not the fastest, strongest, or most skilled in body or in mind. He does however have vision.