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I agree, it's not THE best place to garner statistics from, but the results shouldn't be ignored regardless. True, there's some inaccuracy, but the results speak for themselves.

Sure they have plenty of feedback, but they don't listen to a lot of it. My mind is set, just like you said. What could possibly change my mind? Either GW changes what it's doing, tall order I know but that's what's needed for a lot of people. Or, they come out, write a long, thoughtful explanation of what they are doing, admit some mistakes and at least look like they listen to what people are saying. Sure, they respond to some people, but it's skimming over the issues.

Thing is, even if they did that, self professed 'experts' (and lets face it, on the Interwebs, you have to take a lot of things at face value) will rush in and vomit up opinion masquerading as fact all over it.

They genuinely cannot win. They answer, they get called liars/fools or both. They don't answer, and they're arrogant cretins for not listening.

They simply cannot go onto a public forum in the way we can to discuss, for the very same reasons. For instance, I work in Customer Service, and I have to tell people stuff they don't like, but they have already agreed to (Car Insurance to be precise) and then they get all shirty with me, over the phone. And why do they get shirty? Because the know I'm not allowed to say *anything* back. I would dealy love to tell several Policy Holders 'oh just shut the feth up and listen would you, you bellend. It's on your fething policy, which you agreed to. If you didn't read it before signing it, then you're a dick. Either way tosspot, you can either cough up your excess, or I'll close off your claim'. But I can't, and I wouldn't. Ditto GW. They cannot tell customers everything, because there are those who would tempt, erm...a rather stricter response. And sadly the nuggets of genuine feedback, get drowned out amongst the general clamour and cat calls. How exactly do you engage with that in a productive manner?

Even this letter, which was written to one person, is now being critiqued, with no way for the author to respond. That's hardly fair. Why not follow it up with another letter, stating that you weren't satisfied by the response, rather than just sticking online?

Mr Mystery wrote:GW, dependant on bricks and mortar stores to promote and recruit. European sellers, due to the exchange rate, can offer cheaper. Thus, Bricks and Mortar suffer.

Which is fair enough, in itself. The answer, though, is not to try to pretend that the internet doesn't exist.

Times change. Smart businesses change with them, rather than trying to re-wind the clock to a time better suited to their chosen business model.


If GW (the company that actually makes this stuff in the first place) can't compete locally with businesses that buy their product from GW, then they need to find some other way of bringing money into their stores.

Some of that 'supporting local gaming' that Mr Wells keeps babbling on about would be a good start.

When it comes to Oz, I do agree the need to sort out the exchange rate. But what exactly should those B&M stores do? Set up their website? They're still buying at a higher cost than UK ones (well, one assumes). So that's a bust, as you need significant investment, and you still haven't tackled the problem. Indeed doing this could force you under.

So GW do something to benefit the local traders. If GW were half as mercenary as they make out, why would the do anything? Product still shifts, the still get their cut. Kind of flies in the face, no?

And oddly, how do you adjust the exchange rate, thus automatically adjusting prices, without pissing off the people who bought your product in the weeks running up? Do I agree that GW should avoid this action? Not especially, but surely you can see why they might have done this? One could even say that tinkering with the exchange rate then brings up the problem of how often do you do it? Every week, every year? Would that muck people about? Piss them off even more? I dunno, as said before, I'm just a Mook like everyone else. But think of it this way. You're saving up for a nice new army. You finally have the cashmonies to buy it, and boom, exchange rate adjustment, and suddenly you cannot afford it anymore. Or worse, you bought it the week before, and then the adjustment hits, and you've spent money you didn't need to.

It's a tricky situation, and GW have made their choice. I don't think anyone here has enough knowledge to say with certainty whether any alternative was better.

Well its a obvious copy paste and to be honest I feel bad for the fella at GW that has to compose these letters over and over again... I'm willing to bet they have tons of letters to reply to and the fact that they do take the time to answer is good IMO.

As for the content of the reply well I do disagree with some of the points but hey their company heir philosophy, if they are happy with the way sales are going who I'm I to disagree...

I don't know if you're missing the point but, a lot of people don't think the reasons for GW are satisfactory in the first place, regardless of how it's worded or which person it comes from. Sure, it puts GW in a position where the can't respond to all the criticism, but in my opinion, they haven't even really tried, and it comes across as arrogant. Some half-assed copy and paste response that skims the issues isn't going to cut it for me personally. For the record, I'm in the process of typing a response to Mark Wells letter.

Mr Mystery wrote:

So GW do something to benefit the local traders. If GW were half as mercenary as they make out, why would the do anything? Product still shifts, the still get their cut. Kind of flies in the face, no?
.

Yeah like you said " not enough knowledge"... you are assuming product is in fact shifting and that GW OZ doesn't make the cut a lot fatter for GW if they buy OZ only...
I tell you this much if GW made this embargo is not because of the hobby health but rather because of the money they are not collection from GW OZ... Thinking otherwise is out of touch with GW actions.

You know what's even more scary about all this? In Europe is were GW is losing the biggest percentage of sales and if you add to the fact that the main biggest EU online stores are selling to OZ and now they are forbidden to do so... we can be alarmed of the real low number of EU sales in the future.

NAVARRO wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:

So GW do something to benefit the local traders. If GW were half as mercenary as they make out, why would the do anything? Product still shifts, the still get their cut. Kind of flies in the face, no?
.

Yeah like you said " not enough knowledge"... you are assuming product is in fact shifting and that GW OZ doesn't make the cut a lot fatter for GW if they buy OZ only...
I tell you this much if GW made this embargo is not because of the hobby health but rather because of the money they are not collection from GW OZ... Thinking otherwise is out of touch with GW actions.

You know what's even more scary about all this? In Europe is were GW is losing the biggest percentage of sales and if you add to the fact that the main biggest EU online stores are selling to OZ and now they are forbidden to do so... we can be alarmed of the real low number of EU sales in the future.

Which doesn't take into account any other factor. As I've said before (not in this thread though) there's a lot of changes being made in terms of training etc behind the scenes, and from what I've seen (hardly representative before anyone gets clever) it is working. Even though I don't work for them anymore, not comfortable going further on the boards, but happy to gibber away on PM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:I don't know if you're missing the point but, a lot of people don't think the reasons for GW are satisfactory in the first place, regardless of how it's worded or which person it comes from. Sure, it puts GW in a position where the can't respond to all the criticism, but in my opinion, they haven't even really tried, and it comes across as arrogant. Some half-assed copy and paste response that skims the issues isn't going to cut it for me personally. For the record, I'm in the process of typing a response to Mark Wells letter.

And serious props to you for doing so matey. It's a lot more productiive that complaining on Dakka!

Mr Mystery wrote:Oh dear. you didn't actually read the response, did you?

GW, dependant on bricks and mortar stores to promote and recruit. European sellers, due to the exchange rate, can offer cheaper. Thus, Bricks and Mortar suffer. This affects recruitment, GW do something about it. This makes perfect sense, and rather scuppers the 'short term' gibberish people keep banging on about.

Define 'many manufacturers' please. Because there is no competition the size of GW, with anything like their overheads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and you might want to look up 'apologist'.

An apologist re-interprets facts. Which is very much more your side of the table I fear. Plus, no doubt it's much easier to chuck around epithets than actually attempt to engage with someone, no?

Sadly this isn't 1995 anymore and hasn't been for a long time, what I find amusing about GW claims that onlines retailers taking advantage of exchange rates is its exactly what GW is doing, I mean if GW kept their prices steady when it didn't go in their favor I would actually be inclined to buy this line, they don't, they raise the prices, really its a case of pot keetle black.

insaniak wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:GW, dependant on bricks and mortar stores to promote and recruit. European sellers, due to the exchange rate, can offer cheaper. Thus, Bricks and Mortar suffer.

Which is fair enough, in itself. The answer, though, is not to try to pretend that the internet doesn't exist.

Times change. Smart businesses change with them, rather than trying to re-wind the clock to a time better suited to their chosen business model.

Or things like this happen....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13467846

@iproxtaco - As I'm writing my response to Mark Wells today, could I ask are you thinking of writing about specifics mentioned in his letter to me or a more general complaint?

I don't want any potential dialogue to be bounced on an accusation of rabble-rousing!

@Mr Mystery - I like how you say that someone with a business background will be taken seriously without knowing my background. For the record I work in the commercial department of a company 10 times the size of GW (based on current share prices) and my views on what would make GW better are not based on internet blethering or fanboi wishlisting.

Dude, I work for one of the biggest UK Car Insurers, doesn't mean I know owt about the underwriiting side. Are you a director of said company?

I was going to contact you on the same matter. My intention was to simply complain about the response, that they were dodging the problem and that it was a typical Copy/paste response, not to go into the specifics. It will be more politely put of course.

No, but what has that got to do with the price of fish (or plasticrack in this case)?

You said you work in customer service in said insurance company, not underwriting. Ergo I would not necessarily expect you to have any underwriting knowledge.

I said I worked in the commercial department and deal every day with cost and sales, contract t's & c's, overheads, etc. which is pertinent to a discussion on GW's corporate strategy and pricing policy.

@iproxtaco - that's cool

Except GW are a fairly unique beast. A manufacturer with it's own chain of stores, selling a hobby.

Also skip, worth noting you didn't mention your experience in your letter. Would it have made a difference? I dunno, but it might have illicited a different response. Though of course, not a good one to open up with.

Perhaps it's better not going into why you are qualified too deeply. Simply putting that you have experience in a similar field so believe you are able to comment.

As the first letter wasn't offering any suggestions (a concious choice on my part) then any mention of my experience would have been tangential at best.

I understand what you mean about GW being unique, but the basic principles of profit and efficiency are universally applicable, it's just the specifics that differ between businesses. I'd be happy to go through their books with a fine toothcomb but I doubt they'll let me

Well you kind of can I guess (and it is just a guess) because they have the Investor Relations page with facts and figures that make my eyes bleed.

I'm very interested to see any response to your second letter, as at that point we'll have a dialogue to follow.

I wouldn't want to look at their books. The sheer mind-numbing retardation you would likely find would make you punch your hand through your skull when you face-palm so hard.

Dude, have a look at Investor Relations for their actual profit margin.

For the most part (far as I'm aware anyways) the information is there to be seen.

Dear OP
Your letter was really well written

Chimera_Calvin wrote:As
As for the biggies:
All price rises are justified because the quality is universally better...
Secrecy works - it made the release of Space Hulk and Failcost the successes they were... oh wait
Specialist Games are not being ditched 'in case we go back to them later, like Space Hulk'... err, SH was never a Specialist Game and had been officially out of print for years before the splash 3rd edition.
Australia and New Zealand need protecting from those evil European traders or the hobby will disappear down under... what the ?
Games Workshop always takes decisions for the 'long term'...

Back to the drawing board, methinks.

Its called damage control. WOTC did the same/similar things during 4e rollout/GSL debacle. Especailly at the form.anger/wall of flames when they canceled Dragon and Dungeon magzines in print

-edit- A lot of their arguement hinges on their inability to please everyone. They claim it is impossible, so in their mind, it relieves them of any need to try.

To quote the wisdom of Homer Simpson: "Trying is the first step towards failure".

The simple fact is that we cannot possibly make everything that every customer wants as there is a limit to how much our Studio can design or our factory make. We have to make choices about what products we release and when.

This is the one that got me... The reason that people want these things is that you've made the new rules for them, it's -very- poor planning, to do so when you can't fill the need.

Mr Mystery wrote:
In short? They don't. Plus, GW have larger overheads. But you know, don't let facts get in the way of your bile, will you?

Not trying to troll here, but I question if they really have a larger percentage of overhead relative to the amount of product they make. They almost certainly have more employees, both retail and R&D, then say, Privateer Press, but they only so a significantly larger volume of sales. On a per model basis, I can't imagine the percentage of overhead cost to be significantly different than someone like PP.

Moreover, per the last several earning statements, they've been cutting overhead (reducing staff levels, closing stores) in order to return to profitability. Wells claims GW grows their business via brick and mortar interactions, which then immediately generates some congitive dissonance. So, you're returning to profitability by cutting your long term growth potential and you're issuing a dividend? That seems... odd.

Kilkrazy wrote:I expect all of the letters sent out in response look similar because they are addressing the same points with the same rebuttals.

This man is reading my brains.

Ugh, really leave GW or STFU already people.

Mr Mystery wrote:GW, dependant on bricks and mortar stores to promote and recruit. European sellers, due to the exchange rate, can offer cheaper. Thus, Bricks and Mortar suffer.

Here's the problem with your assessment: Aussie folks can STILL order directly from GW UK, at a cheaper price(but not cheaper then the european seller, but cheaper then brick and mortar Aussie stores). That right there invalidates GW's thought behind the move. Their trying to cut out only certain parties, not fully protect B&M stores.

Mr Wells proves once and for all that there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for poor personal hygene in the wargaming community!

Not when he provides so much softsoap and flannel.

Ba-DUM Tshhhh!!!!!

Thank you, he'll be here all week

Bottomline ladies and gentlemen, is that market forces are the best controller of prices. pour example.

"greater competition = More competitive prices"

This applies for certain ranges or commodities, Imperial Guard can be substituted for say PIG- IRON models or other 28mm models.

Flames of War is a perfect example of this, as BF cannot IP or trademark, Copyright 15mm Panzers and Models.

If you want to play SPACE MARINES, well frankly you've had it, as nothing out there resembles them for a damn good reason. Because simply, GW are protecting their most valuable IP and i personally would too. If you designed something from scratch and it became popular and another company came along and ripped it off, well you'd be outraged.

I think the price comes from the dominance of GW, but not in a beliigerant way. They dominated the scene and brought it to the world, but with the internet and greater diversity of content model suppliers and model items they are losing out to compeititors.

I would love to do some Blue Sky's Thinking, get involved in their business model and change it for the 21st Century.

1. A couple of larger regional stores in larger more densely populated areas would be better. Close 90% of the Stores, lose the staff, retain the good ones (Brutal but this is capitalism).

2. Use savings to reduce Staffing and Retail expediture and reduce overheads. Use savings to reduce costs and therefore Consumer prices reduce.

3. Enlarge the online system and provide a BITS/ Parts service. Wouldn't cost more than 10 Shops to Run staff and Operate! Could be operated out a dedicated building in the Nottingham Site.

4. Consider 3rd Party Developer rights, Chapter House makes good Space Marine Pauldrons, bring them in house. Instead of Enemy, make them an Ally. Make them sign a Clause that they can only develop accessories/upgrades/parts for Core ranges not alternative whole miniatures/ models. Same with Bases, Terrain etc. You could even go so far as to mass produce Normal marines and people can buy upgrade sprues from GW or 3rd parties.

5. Consider use of Franchaise Stores or FLGS Support e.g if a FLGS has 50% of Shop floor/shelf space dedicated to GW material they are entitled to certain discounts or financial support. Call it Subsidised Store retention or something, why pay for a full store when you can have half the sales space of one for considerably less than 50% Cost. Appoint a couple of Store inspectors to keep the FLGS inline.

6. Split the Studio, WARHAMMER 40K + WARHAMMER = Classic Studio WARHAMMER HISTORICAL = Historical Studio OTHERS = Specialist Studio. Jervis Johnson does not need his fingers in every "Game" Pie. Let the next generation get hold of this stuff. Generating Content should be in the Companies best Interest, everyone collects at least 2 Armies.

7. Vallejo make good paints...Does GW still need too? Equally what about terrain? what about everything else? ARMY PAINTER stuff? There is lots of stuff out there why fight over the crumbs under the table. It's unnecessary.

Lets consider that GW produce their own Models, Paints, Materials, Games, dedicated Hobby Shops. They are a victim of there own success, they got us all hooked and with the internet we have taken Wargaming in all it's forms in many different directions. They continue to operate expensive shops, with high staffing costs, high venue costs and such, these expenses need to be re-couped.

Many smaller companies are small operations, they are cheaper by a considerable margin because they don't have highstreet dedicated shops, and sales staff, or their own paint ranges, spray paints, boards, terrain, massive vehicles, Reading Materials, books, Video Games.

GW should concentrate on their core job, generating Game Systems and models.