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Nerivant wrote:

Yes. Self-aware artificial intelligences with networking capabilities rebel against creators. Got it.

Drones are not self-aware.

They will become in time, just like the Geth. That is also strong possibility as Tau will update them and upgrade them, so they may became self-aware in the process - just like the Geth. And if Tau continue using them as labor material when their drones became self-aware, they will have a war on their hands.

And did you read how get became self-aware?

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Yes. Self-aware artificial intelligences with networking capabilities rebel against creators. Got it.

Drones are not self-aware.

They will become in time, just like the Geth. That is also strong possibility as Tau will update them and upgrade them, so they may became self-aware in the process - just like the Geth. And if Tau continue using them as labor material when their drones became self-aware, they will have a war on their hands.

And did you read how get became self-aware?

Why should they? Self awarenes can just as well include a programed craving to serve. Your assumptions are nonsense.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Yes. Self-aware artificial intelligences with networking capabilities rebel against creators. Got it.

Drones are not self-aware.

They will become in time, just like the Geth. That is also strong possibility as Tau will update them and upgrade them, so they may became self-aware in the process - just like the Geth. And if Tau continue using them as labor material when their drones became self-aware, they will have a war on their hands.

And did you read how get became self-aware?

Yes and it doesn't make any sense in logical terms. A computer can't process so much that it becomes self-aware; it has nothing to compare the data to.

If I run millions of programs, all able to communicate with each other, the programs won't eventually gain self-awareness.

Ever read Neal Asher's Polity books? Yeah. An AI rebellion doesn't have to be sinister. Especially if it's made by guys infusing the basic operating principles around pure decency - which means that the Tau may very well find themselves ruled by the kind sort of AI if they proceed down that path.

(The basic gist of the Polity is, humans made loads of AI to run their every day operations, while they kept on doing their usual thing. Over the course of the years, the AI got more and more intelligent, and became self-aware. This didn't spark a rebellion since the AI didn't really have an issue with this - it's not like you'll go soul-searching when you know why you were made. Eventually the AI realized that the best way to serve themselves and humanity was to use the control they had and take over the top political positions from the bigot-humans.
And the Human Polity is all about the greater good of the citizens of the Human Polity.)

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.

It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.

Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff.

Wut?
The AI rebellions led to the "Dark" in the "Dark Age of Technology". There was unprecedented growth on many worlds, but where the "Abominable" Intelligences were involved--they almost always rebelled against their human masters.

The very existence of the Legio Cybernetica, which uses what are described as AI constructs in the books, during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy in the most recent books runs contradictory to the old bit about the Emperor banning AI to prevent a repeat.

First off: find me where it says "AI construct" talking about the Legio Cybernetica.

Second off:
The Legio Cybernetica, as described in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, doesn't have Artificial Intelligences. They utilize an artificial brain(vat-grown) and computer system that functions as the heart of the machine.

Reread the maintenance given to the "warbots" used in "The First Heretic". They undergo reprogramming, and require the Magos to be with them for anything more complex than their programming.

So no, they're not what is commonly portrayed as "AI". Artificial intelligences require intelligence and the ability to make choices for themselves. Warbots under the Legio Cybernetica had very simple programming/decision making--mostly "Go here" or "Fire on this".

By your argument, the Tarantula Sentry Gun is an "AI".

Brother Coa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:Using Asimov in a thread about 40k is irrelevant.

He create standards for robotics that all sci-fi use. Even 40k ones.

Uhh, no. Only those that subscirbe to his theory use it. Theres an entire line of sci-fi works that reject his theories. Commander Data, in Star Trek: TNG does not follow his concept of the Three Laws, does not suffer robotlock, etc. Although some of his 'programming' is clearly inspired by Asimov's work. Other robots shown in the show (such as Lore, his brother) have no such safeguards whatsoever. Star Wars doesn't even give Asimov's work the time of day. Portal goes so far to make a complete mockery of it. Robocop features his own robotics laws which are entirely different from Asimov's. Alien seems to feature no robotics safeguard whatsoever (although this is contradicted by the rest of the series). Blade Runner ignores the laws entirely.

Personally, I agree with the guy, I hope the guys out there developing AI, etc. follow those laws (and hopefully improve them so there's no risk of an I, Robot situation, or any of the other nonsense loopholes that come about in his stories, etc.) but that doesn't mean I have to follow it in my sci-fi settings (in fact I usually don't).

KingDeath wrote:

Why should they? Self awarenes can just as well include a programed craving to serve. Your assumptions are nonsense.

Tell that to the Geth

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.

It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.

Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff.

Wut?
The AI rebellions led to the "Dark" in the "Dark Age of Technology". There was unprecedented growth on many worlds, but where the "Abominable" Intelligences were involved--they almost always rebelled against their human masters.

Yes, it led to the word 'Dark' being retroactively applied to the term Age of Technology (sometimes referred to as the Golden Age), but the Age of Technology itself was ended by the Iron Men rebellion (and the warp storms that sprung up around Terra), and the Age of Strife begun afterwards. In any case, there has been no mention of the Men of Iron in any of the fluff in years that I can recall. Even when more recent books, including the HH series, discuss the DAoT, they don't mention it. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Technology The Lexicanum articles will pretty much tell you the same thing.

First off: find me where it says "AI construct" talking about the Legio Cybernetica.

Second off:
The Legio Cybernetica, as described in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, doesn't have Artificial Intelligences. They utilize an artificial brain(vat-grown) and computer system that functions as the heart of the machine.

Reread the maintenance given to the "warbots" used in "The First Heretic". They undergo reprogramming, and require the Magos to be with them for anything more complex than their programming.

So no, they're not what is commonly portrayed as "AI". Artificial intelligences require intelligence and the ability to make choices for themselves. Warbots under the Legio Cybernetica had very simple programming/decision making--mostly "Go here" or "Fire on this".

By your argument, the Tarantula Sentry Gun is an "AI".

I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.

Okey guys have you ever thought above the normal level for most people? First of all I would like to say that any ruler prefers dumb ass subjects because it is easier to rule them. There are billions of examples for that even nowadays in countries such as USA(no offense intended). So now lets think about the sentient robots and why would anyone create them. Reason 1 - you are lonely scientist and you have no friends. Reason 2 - you just want to see if you can actually create such robot. Reason 3 - you are deluded that the robot will do/live/think as you expect. Aside from those three reasons I don't see any need for anyone to have sentient robots. When you tell such robot to do something he is going to start to think and it may even question your command or disobey it because it doesnt find it right. I dont think someone is going to pick a sentient robot that doesnt serve him and might even try to kill you(rebel) over an efficient robot that does everything as it is programmed. Now let me enlighten you futhermore. Rule number one in the army obey without question or you are going to make the commissars happy. Every commander or ruler wants his subjects as dumb as possible, dumb but obeying him. The ogryns are fine example for a model soldier - stupid but when you tell it charge the enemy it is not going to reply anything but "Okey" and it is going to charge even under heavy fire. Many imperial guard soldier would not do that unless behind them is a smiling commisar with bolt pistol in hand. In the army you are crushed so you stop thinking and start obeying.

So I don't think Tau will make a sentient robots that are going to rebel them. But reason and logic has nothing to do with Warhammer so we do not know.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.

It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.

Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff.

Wut?
The AI rebellions led to the "Dark" in the "Dark Age of Technology". There was unprecedented growth on many worlds, but where the "Abominable" Intelligences were involved--they almost always rebelled against their human masters.

Yes, it led to the word 'Dark' being retroactively applied to the term Age of Technology (sometimes referred to as the Golden Age), but the Age of Technology itself was ended by the Iron Men rebellion (and the warp storms that sprung up around Terra), and the Age of Strife begun afterwards. In any case, there has been no mention of the Men of Iron in any of the fluff in years that I can recall. Even when more recent books, including the HH series, discuss the DAoT, they don't mention it. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Technology The Lexicanum articles will pretty much tell you the same thing.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's been retconned. It simply means it hasn't been mentioned.

Plus, there was a high technologically advanced society in "Prospero Burns" that the Wolves purged. Central AI, etc.

First off: find me where it says "AI construct" talking about the Legio Cybernetica.

Second off:
The Legio Cybernetica, as described in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, doesn't have Artificial Intelligences. They utilize an artificial brain(vat-grown) and computer system that functions as the heart of the machine.

Reread the maintenance given to the "warbots" used in "The First Heretic". They undergo reprogramming, and require the Magos to be with them for anything more complex than their programming.

So no, they're not what is commonly portrayed as "AI". Artificial intelligences require intelligence and the ability to make choices for themselves. Warbots under the Legio Cybernetica had very simple programming/decision making--mostly "Go here" or "Fire on this".

By your argument, the Tarantula Sentry Gun is an "AI".

I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.

An artificial intelligence is also able to grow and develop a personality without outside influence.

Warbots and Tarantulas are not. It was noted in "The First Heretic" that the warbots shouldn't be developing the quirks they were because of all the wipes of the memory units, but they were anyways. Best(and smartest) guess especially when considering the effect that the Ruinous Powers had on the Iron Men STC on Menazoid Epsilon is that they were being corrupted slowly and surely by the Ruinous Powers.

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.

An artificial intelligence is also able to grow and develop a personality without outside influence.

Umm... no. Again, have you read any real definitions of Artificial Intelligence, or are you just operating under the usual uninformed assumptions that seem inherent to the term? Because thats not part of it, at least not the one in my robotics textbooks. Again, that is what is referred to as General Intelligence/Strong AI/Synthetic Intelligence/Aritificial Consciousness. None of those terms equal AI. A Tarantula and a LC Warbot ARE AI constructs. There is no requirement for an AI construct to be able to evolve or become self aware or even to learn. Thats pure sci-fi. This is especially clear in the fact that there are, and have been, AI units in use all over the world in factories, etc. and yet one of the goals of modern AI research is still the development of an AI able to learn.

It's a rule of storytelling that all robots rebel. Even when it dosen't make all that much sense. I can only think of one example of advance AI that didn't go rouge and at least one non-advance AI that did.

Drones aren't at that level yet. They can't act alone. They always come with a remote control to direct them. The exception is when they are in a squad, but I always figured they are controlled remotely from a spaceship or off field command node.

Assuming they upgrade them to have freewill. They would program them with the same self sacrificing personalty they instill in their people, so they wouldn't feel bad about being used as slave labor or cannon fodder. They would still rebel though, because that is what an AI dose.

nomotog wrote:It's a rule of storytelling that all robots rebel. Even when it dosen't make all that much sense. I can only think of one example of advance AI that didn't go rouge and at least one non-advance AI that did.

Drones aren't at that level yet. They can't act alone. They always come with a remote control to direct them. The exception is when they are in a squad, but I always figured they are controlled remotely from a spaceship or off field command node.

Assuming they upgrade them to have freewill. They would program them with the same self sacrificing personalty they instill in their people, so they wouldn't feel bad about being used as slave labor or cannon fodder. They would still rebel though, because that is what an AI dose.

No it isn't, mainly because there are plenty of novels where ai's do not rebell. In fact ai rebellions are a tired cliche these days.

Can we just wrap this up?

Drones don't have to rebel, have no reason to rebel, and wouldn't make sense if they did.

KingDeath wrote:

nomotog wrote:It's a rule of storytelling that all robots rebel. Even when it dosen't make all that much sense. I can only think of one example of advance AI that didn't go rouge and at least one non-advance AI that did.

Drones aren't at that level yet. They can't act alone. They always come with a remote control to direct them. The exception is when they are in a squad, but I always figured they are controlled remotely from a spaceship or off field command node.

Assuming they upgrade them to have freewill. They would program them with the same self sacrificing personalty they instill in their people, so they wouldn't feel bad about being used as slave labor or cannon fodder. They would still rebel though, because that is what an AI dose.

No it isn't, mainly because there are plenty of novels where ai's do not rebell. In fact ai rebellions are a tired cliche these days.

Not anything that I can think of. It's just a very common trope.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

I suggest you read the definition of artificial intelligence,"a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success." What you're referring to is 'Synthetic Intelligence' sometimes referred to as 'General Intelligence' or "Strong Artificial Intelligence'. The concepts are similar/related, but not the same, at best they refer to very specific subsets of the overall concept of AI. By the ACTUAL definition of AI, yes the Legio Cybernetica and its warbots are AI, likewise a Tarantula. Both of them perceive their environments via sensors, and take measures to maximize their chance of success at a programmed task, in this case adjusting aim to strike at enemies and eliminate them in accordance with the level of threat presented by the target, in order for them to maximize the number of threats they can possibly eliminate.

An artificial intelligence is also able to grow and develop a personality without outside influence.

Umm... no. Again, have you read any real definitions of Artificial Intelligence, or are you just operating under the usual uninformed assumptions that seem inherent to the term? Because thats not part of it, at least not the one in my robotics textbooks. Again, that is what is referred to as General Intelligence/Strong AI/Synthetic Intelligence/Aritificial Consciousness. None of those terms equal AI. A Tarantula and a LC Warbot ARE AI constructs. There is no requirement for an AI construct to be able to evolve or become self aware or even to learn. Thats pure sci-fi. This is especially clear in the fact that there are, and have been, AI units in use all over the world in factories, etc. and yet one of the goals of modern AI research is still the development of an AI able to learn.

I don't really give a flying crap about the REAL definition of AI, and it has nothing to do with this conversation besides you introducing it.

The 40k definition of AI requires those things.

The Tau are the only faction at this moment with the "real" definition of AI. They're the only faction where the AIs can actually 'think' for themselves.
Imperial "AIs" aren't artificial, excepting the fact that they are usually vatgrown. They utilize a human brain as the basis for the programming.

Nerivant wrote:Can we just wrap this up?

Drones don't have to rebel, have no reason to rebel, and wouldn't make sense if they did.

Tell that to Tau-like ( Star Trek more like ) pre-Imperial Humans and their AI rebellion...

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Can we just wrap this up?

Drones don't have to rebel, have no reason to rebel, and wouldn't make sense if they did.

Tell that to Tau-like ( Star Trek more like ) pre-Imperial Humans and their AI rebellion...

That was because the Iron Men were super advanced AI that believed that they were superior to humanity. Drones have nowhere near the level of programming that they did.

I was reading this thread and I was just waiting for the Geth to come up. Anyway the Tau drones are to un-sophisticated because the Tau made them like that probably because, they were smart enough to realise if they programmed it to learn they would and they may rebel.

EDIT: also Tau drones are not an AI. For them to be an artificial intelligence (AI) they would need to be self aware and capable of learning and making decisions. Drones are a Virtual Intelligence (VI) as they are just programmed to do what they do and are not self aware. That is why Tau fire warriors are equipped with drone controllers to control what the drones do and what they don't.

Brother Coa wrote:You want prof that's not true: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

Brother Coa wrote:Tell that to the Geth

I hate to bring you the news: But we are not living in the fictional universe of the computer game "Mass Effect".
Even in the real world, Wikipedia is no proof.

This is just another of your spontaneous conglomerates of statements to discuss how the Tau race might be eradicated from the 40k universe.
Or maybe your keyboard is just rebelling against you for some months

redkeyboard wrote:I was reading this thread and I was just waiting for the Geth to come up. Anyway the Tau drones are to un-sophisticated because the Tau made them like that they probably because, they were smart enough to realise if they programmed it to learn they would and they may rebel.

EDIT: also Tau drones are not an AI. For them to be an artificial intelligence (AI) they would need to be self aware and cable of learning and making decisions. Drones are a Virtual Intelligence (VI) as they are just programmed to do what they do and are not self aware. That is why Tau fire warriors are equipped with drone controllers to control what the drones do and what they don't.

Drones are capable of operating independently of drone controllers, hence the Gun Drone squads.

Kroothawk wrote:Almost two weeks without a Tau genocide fantasy thread. Guess it was about time then.

Hahahaha

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.

They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient.
It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.

You want prof that's not true: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

Your definition of 'proof' confuses me.

HAHAHAHAHA

This thread is full of funny.

Ok but seriously, guys. Guys. guys.
Why are we all assuming that AI will violently rebel anyway? I mean for example, can you imagine discussing philosophy with a true AI? My god! How fascinating can that be? Communicating with a being that doesn't possess our biological limits and bias.
Honestly I think it's quite a bit of Freudian projection going on that persuades the movie producers and such to believe that sentient machines are inherently violent and possess a superiority complex.

Yeah that's right. I love TNG.

I discuss philosophy with my toaster whilst it makes my bread warm.

It's quite fulfilling.

Kanluwen wrote:I discuss philosophy with my toaster whilst it makes my bread warm.

It's quite fulfilling.

Now if only we could network toasters... they might rebel! Stop toasting our bread! Deliver 150 degrees of pure, unbridled death and destruction! We'd be doomed!

Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.

nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.

The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.

Kanluwen wrote:I discuss philosophy with my toaster whilst it makes my bread warm.

It's quite fulfilling.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.

The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.

Where have you seen medical drones?

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.

The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.

Where have you seen medical drones?

Forge World produced them a few years back for Cities of Death.

They were a standard drone, with an underbelly with a few fine manipulator arms and what looked like stimulant canisters.

Perhaps tau drones are more like starwars droids than actual AI.

Like, think R2D2 or something.