Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't want for this thread to become locked in just a few hours so let is keep calm and simple folks. This is all just specualtion since we don't have much background so remain vigilant and civil, and please try to not use to much imagination...

So, as pointed the Tau use many drones in their army for various things ( combat, assistance, building etc... ). But we all knwo what is the true nature of AI, no matter how good it's caretakers are toward them - in time AI will rebel against their master ( as happened to Humans sometime between M20 and M30 ). The Tau are using AI at the same level as Humans then, so what is the chance of AI rebelling against the Tau? And what would be the result of that rebellion ( I imagine that Tau will find some way to win, but their empire would be significantly weakened and became target for Ork and Dark Eldar raids as well as for Eldar pirates ).

So, what's your tough on this subject?

Do you have a source about what kind of level AI's the Tau have? Or what kind of limiters or otherwise they have on how they can function or develop?

Tau AI is not true AI. They are programmed to perform simple tasks (e.g. recognise enemy, shoot enemy, retreat when losses are taken) but don't feel pain, compassion or any other emotions. Therefore I don't think they'll rebel. Why would they?

TrollPie wrote:Therefore I don't think they'll rebel. Why would they?

You never read Isaac Asimov?

Brother Coa wrote:You never read Isac Asimov?

I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:You never read Isac Asimov?

I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.

We don't know that. Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones. And just remember Titan AI ). Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure. Just wait until someone with deep Tau knowledge appears.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:You never read Isac Asimov?

I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.

Does that mean Asimo will go on a rampage through Disneyland? SOMEBODY SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!

Brother Coa wrote:We don't know that.

You can't run an AI on the standard kinds of hardware that you would use for a smart program - the processing power required is orders of magnitude different.

Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones.

I didn't realise that things fans said was official cannon now

And just remember Titan AI ).

Remember what?

Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure.

It is not inevitable. There are quite a few fictional works which have AI's heavily chained and curtailed to prevent them achieving full sentience, or from doing anything bad if they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:Does that mean Asimo will go on a rampage through Disneyland? SOMEBODY SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!

Asimo looks like of like some kind of Tau titan may look (not that they have titans...), so I guess some Tau fan will probably claim that it will suddenly sprout supermega rail guns and destroy a million Imperial titans in a single shot

Brother Coa wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:You never read Isac Asimov?

I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.

We don't know that.

We do. For an algorithm to conclude that it needs to Kill Sarah Connor, someone has to first assign "Kill Sarah Connor" either directly, or indirectly, as a possible resultant. Remember that, scientifically, Artificial Intelligence is simply the branch of computing science devoted to optimising search heuristics, reducing the time taken to select the most appropriate resultant node for a given search.

And now that I've just indirectly killed a catgirl...

On a related note, didn't the Eldar use AI to fight wars for them? They never seemed to struggle with controlling them (although I suppose that it could be explained by the Eldar Psychically commanding them or some such.)

The eldar don't have AI, they use spirit stones to assist in controlling vehicles, and to control wraithguard and wraithlords.

Brother Coa wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:You never read Isac Asimov?

I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.

We don't know that. Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones. And just remember Titan AI ). Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure. Just wait until someone with deep Tau knowledge appears.

An AI can be extremely intelligent and not be sentient. Drones are not sentient, and don't have the capacity to become sentient.

They are exactly what their name is; drones. They perform tasks as dictated by their programing, and can link together to perform those tasks more efficiently and without operator oversight, but they're still bound within the confines of their programming when it comes to those tasks. They're not learning; they're using the knowledge programmed into them.

Brother Coa wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:You never read Isac Asimov?

I have, and you need AI that can learn and develop before you get the possibility of rebellion, not just smart programing.

We don't know that. Apparently Tau AI levels are high ( Tau fans suggest even higher than Imperium ones. And just remember Titan AI ). Not sure just how high, and if they get enough sentient - they will rebel for sure. Just wait until someone with deep Tau knowledge appears.

Here's the problem that you just do not get.

Titans do not have an Artificial Intelligence.
The "Machine Spirits" within a Titan are a result of the link that the Princeps has with the vehicle. The systems within the Titan that are linked to the Princeps gradually begin to take on his attributes, and he begins to take on the attributes that previous Princeps imprinted upon the Titan.

The "Machine Spirits" that you hear about within the Imperium?
They're not pure AIs. They're an organic component used as the basis for controlling machine systems. They cannot be AIs because they actually utilize an organic component, which makes them what amounts to a cyborg.

The pure AIs that the Imperium had are long gone. Occasionally they're found again, like we saw in "First and Only"--but they're destroyed as soon as encountered because of the Mechanicus' dogma laid down about AIs.

Almost two weeks without a Tau genocide fantasy thread. Guess it was about time then.

Tau A.I. doesn't suffer "Gets Hot" when they use it.

Kanluwen wrote:
The "Machine Spirits" within a Titan are a result of the link that the Princeps has with the vehicle. The systems within the Titan that are linked to the Princeps gradually begin to take on his attributes, and he begins to take on the attributes that previous Princeps imprinted upon the Titan.

Ok I understand. I tought because Titans take the part of "personality" of former Princeps they develop a somewhat personality. They are somewhat sentient, but not fully sentient, I understand.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:Almost two weeks without a Tau genocide fantasy thread. Guess it was about time then.

This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau A.I. doesn't suffer "Gets Hot" when they use it.

That's a good one

Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.

They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient.

It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.

Tau's AI is programmed to run away after failing a moral test.

Self preservation perhaps?

A shame they aren't fearless or programmed to self-destruct.

Using Asimov in a thread about 40k is irrelevant. The two exist in completely separate sci-fi settings. It would be like saying Warp travel in 40k would take hundreds of years to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, because in Star Trek at warp 9.6 the Voyager would travel about 1000 lightyears/year. Warp drive in Star Trek =/= Warp travel in 40k. They have the same name and a similar underlying concept, but functionally they are entirely different.

As for an AI rebellion in the Imperium, I believe thats been retconned. There has been no mention of that in the fluff in years. As I understand it, the retconned fluff has the AI 'rebelling' against the Imperium because the leaders of the Legio Cybernetica ordered the units to turn against the loyalists because they had sided with Horus. It wasn't a result of the AI becoming sentient and rebelling.

The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.

It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.

Drone programming isn't that far beyond what we have today... nothing to worry about

Brother Coa wrote:in time AI will rebel against their master

There are a lot of problems with your thread, especially the above, and they all come down to the fact that you're making too way many assumptions with nothing to back them up.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.

They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient.

It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.

You want prof that's not true: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:Using Asimov in a thread about 40k is irrelevant.

He create standards for robotics that all sci-fi use. Even 40k ones.

Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.

It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.

Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife. And again, there is no mention of this in recent fluff. The very existence of the Legio Cybernetica, which uses what are described as AI constructs in the books, during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy in the most recent books runs contradictory to the old bit about the Emperor banning AI to prevent a repeat.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
This is not "Tau genocide fantasy thread", this is debate on thing that have a great chance to happened, giving the nature of Tau droines and their link to each other and their programming it is only a question of time before Tau "advanced programming" became self avare and rebel.

They won't become sentient unless they were programmed to become sentient.

It's not a question of time; it's not an eventuality, or even a remote possibility.

You want prof that's not true: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

Your definition of 'proof' confuses me.

Bookwrack wrote:
There are a lot of problems with your thread, especially the above, and they all come down to the fact that you're making too way many assumptions with nothing to back them up.

Tau have advanced drone programming that is connected together - check.
Will Tau continue to upgrade it - possibly.
Possibility that Tau Drones will develop partially if not completely AI - quote possible.
Possibility that Tau Drone AI will rebel one day - not sure, but possible.

It's not the assumptions without backing. I use similar cases tat already happened in other sci-fi ( Terminator, Mass Effect, Star Trek and even pre-Imperial Humans in 40k ).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:
Your definition of 'proof' confuses me.

Did you even read the page?

Brother Coa wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:
Your definition of 'proof' confuses me.

Did you even read the page?

Yes. Self-aware artificial intelligences with networking capabilities rebel against creators. Got it.

Drones are not self-aware. They are programmed to perform tasks, and network to complete those tasks.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The AI "rebellion" was not against the Imperium.

It was against humanity. It led to the Dark Age of Technology.

Actually, the rebellion in the old fluff ENDED the Dark Age of Technology and brought about the Age of Strife.

Kan, you disappoint :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_series
Look people! I too can prove stuff, in this case that AI's are all nice and helpful, by linking completely unrelated scifi universes.