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There you go. It was called a "technical drone" that could count as an observer or medicae facility.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.

The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.

Where have you seen medical drones?

Forge World produced them a few years back for Cities of Death.

They were a standard drone, with an underbelly with a few fine manipulator arms and what looked like stimulant canisters.

Do you have any pictures or know what they where used for?

Edit never mind, you are somehow psychic, but I should point out that it has no hands.

Kroothawk wrote:
I hate to bring you the news: But we are not living in the fictional universe of the computer game "Mass Effect".
Even in the real world, Wikipedia is no proof.

I hate to bring you the bad news but comparison counts.
And what are you trying to say: that Warhammer 40k is real? Tau do not exist, there are only Humans in the real world.
And I will then quote the game itself, or do you want me to give a link from YouTube from every time Shepard talked to Tali and Legion about Geth.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
I hate to bring you the news: But we are not living in the fictional universe of the computer game "Mass Effect".
Even in the real world, Wikipedia is no proof.

I hate to bring you the bad news but comparison counts.
And what are you trying to say: that Warhammer 40k is real? Tau do not exist, there are only Humans in the real world.
And I will then quote the game itself, or do you want me to give a link from YouTube from every time Shepard talked to Tali and Legion about Geth.

No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.

Kanluwen wrote:I discuss philosophy with my toaster whilst it makes my bread warm.

It's quite fulfilling.

Sigged.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:Ok this might seem like a tiny thing at first, but the drones have no arms. They can't rebel because they wouldn't be able to make more of themselves or operate equipment.

The Medical Drones that we've seen portrayed in fluff have arms. There's mention of "Construction Drones" as well.

Where have you seen medical drones?

Forge World produced them a few years back for Cities of Death.

They were a standard drone, with an underbelly with a few fine manipulator arms and what looked like stimulant canisters.

Do you have any pictures or know what they where used for?

Edit never mind, you are somehow psychic, but I should point out that it has no hands.

Pft.

Everybody knows that the little bubbley bits on the underside are where the tentacles come out to probe you!

Nerivant wrote:
No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.

Says you. This thing happened in x sci-fi and you are telling me they are all not counting? I call that moronic. AI rules are universal for every sci-fi, as every sci-fi is build on the same rules that first sci-fi writers implemented ( warhammer 40k is based on Starship Troopers, various fantasies, Aliens, Terminator and many other things. Just as Starcraft is based on Warhammer 40k. The rules for some things are universal everywhere like every planet has water, air and food in Star Wars and 70% of alien spices in sci-fi are with 2 legs, 2 arms, head and torso ). You are just mad because you can't accept that fact that this thing is quite possible to happen to Tau.
And Jedi ARE psykers - but in a different kind of way ( no warp connection at all, but we have dark and light powers just as we have Chaos and Emperor's powers ).

"Drawing elements from" does not mean "obeys the same rules".

Kanluwen wrote:"Drawing elements from" does not mean "obeys the same rules".

Yes, but basically most sci-fi universes do have the same rules as ours. Simply because it is simpler for someone to understand it better, to use known things than to make something up that ton of people won't understand.

Like AI: I Robot, Terminator, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Mass Effect, Portal, Galactica, The Matrix, Stealth... Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans is Halo ( Cortana ), Star Trek ( because Humans are like the Tau x 10 there ) and Star Wars ( because they live with robots for so long that even robots became like them ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetic_revolt Besicly this rules implement in almost every sci-fi.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, but basically most sci-fi universes do have the same rules as ours. Simply because it is simpler for someone to understand it better, to use known things than to make something up that ton of people won't understand.

Like AI: I Robot, Terminator, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Mass Effect, Portal, Galactica, The Matrix, Stealth... Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans is Halo ( Cortana ), Star Trek ( because Humans are like the Tau x 10 there ) and Star Wars ( because they live with robots for so long that even robots became like them ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetic_revolt Besicly this rules implement in almost every sci-fi.

But then it's not difficult for somebody whose appreciation of science fiction goes beyond movie and tv franchises to point to William Gibson's Neuromancer (published in 1984 and incidentally a prominent influence on Warhammer 40,000's mood and aesthetics) in which emergent AIs are a major plot point but conspicuously do not revolt against humanity.
I would venture that authorial rationale for the Imperium having a proscription against strong AI likely derived from a desire to avoid falling into then-common cliches of robots in science fiction. Naturally, being Games Workshop, rather than invent their own reasons, they stole them Frank Herbert's Dune. (Another science fiction classic, and one of which Warhammer 40,000's background is highly derivative.)

Kanluwen wrote:
Everybody knows that the little bubbley bits on the underside are where the tentacles come out to probe you!

Your taking the Japanese influence too far

Which makes it all the more amusing that in the White Dwarf Presents: Warhammer 40,000 I had, in the description for Imperial Robots, it stated that both the Imperial and Heretical factions in the Horus Heresey made heavy use of robots in the Siege of Terra in order to limit human casualties.

Brother Coa wrote:Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans

Saying, "I'm blisteringly ignorant of fictional tropes and settings,' is not a good way of backing ANY argument.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Drawing elements from" does not mean "obeys the same rules".

Yes, but basically most sci-fi universes do have the same rules as ours. Simply because it is simpler for someone to understand it better, to use known things than to make something up that ton of people won't understand.

Like AI: I Robot, Terminator, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Mass Effect, Portal, Galactica, The Matrix, Stealth... Only example I know of were AI didn't rebel against Humans is Halo ( Cortana ), Star Trek ( because Humans are like the Tau x 10 there ) and Star Wars ( because they live with robots for so long that even robots became like them ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetic_revolt Besicly this rules implement in almost every sci-fi.

As well as the Culture series, Andromeda ( as bad as it was ), the Bolo series, several Heinlein stories, Douglas Adams and others. The Matrix is not a genocidial AI rebellion story. The AI's there were attacked by humans and merely defended themselfs ( with great success ). 2001 was a malfunction because of conflicting orders for the AI, not what you would call a real rebellion.
So not, despite what you believe there is no definitive need for the Tau AI's to malfunction and rebel.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.

Says you. This thing happened in x sci-fi and you are telling me they are all not counting? I call that moronic. AI rules are universal for every sci-fi, as every sci-fi is build on the same rules that first sci-fi writers implemented ( warhammer 40k is based on Starship Troopers, various fantasies, Aliens, Terminator and many other things. Just as Starcraft is based on Warhammer 40k. The rules for some things are universal everywhere like every planet has water, air and food in Star Wars and 70% of alien spices in sci-fi are with 2 legs, 2 arms, head and torso ). You are just mad because you can't accept that fact that this thing is quite possible to happen to Tau.
And Jedi ARE psykers - but in a different kind of way ( no warp connection at all, but we have dark and light powers just as we have Chaos and Emperor's powers ).

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I pointed out several examples previously where those 'universal AI rules' don't apply. Just because things are based on certain other works does not mean that every previous work is counted. Some of your camparisons don't even hold any water. Alien and Terminator had no AI rules. Aliens retconned in those rules after the fact. Not every planet in Star Wars has water, air, and food. Sullust for example did not have a breathable atmosphere (it was toxic), Dorin had a Helium atmosphere, and Gand had an Ammonia atmosphere. Kessel had no atmosphere whatsoever, nor did it have water, that was brought by human colonists. As for '70% of alien species are humanoid in sci-fi' that is not a universal rule, by virtue of the fact that its 70% and not 100%. In any case, there are some sci-fi where the aliens are not humanoid whatsoever. In Starship Troopers the only alien species are the bugs, they look like weird mutant spiders, having more than 2 legs and 2 arms etc., in that case, 0% of alien species have those qualities you list.

And Jedi most certainly are not psykers. By the definition of psyker, a term created for 40k, the Star Wars universe would have to have the Warp as well. As for Chaos and Emperor's powers, there is no such thing as emperor's powers, all powers are derived form the same source, and all are inherently chaotic. And just because robots rebelled in Terminator, 2001: Space Odyssey, Terminator, etc. doesn't make them like Asimov's work. In fact, quite the opposite, none of the robots in those settings had the 'universal rules of sci-fi' like the 3 laws of robotics, which interestingly enough caused the conflict in Asimov's work. The very fact that you listed 3 examples where AI doesn't rebel means its not a universal rule.

Banal as this thread's initial premise is, I will be delighted the day that Games Workshop, having let the Tau slide into obscurity thanks to poor sales, announce "Err... they were all eaten by rogue AIs.".

English Assassin wrote:Banal as this thread's initial premise is, I will be delighted the day that Games Workshop, having let the Tau slide into obscurity thanks to poor sales, announce "Err... they were all eaten by rogue AIs.".

Tau were actually one of the better selling ranges, in 40k terms they were right behind Space Marines for quite some time. Not so much in the past 3 or 4 years since they've steadily dropped in power, but otherwise, yeah.

The op is clealy a kid who needs to read Harry Potter, so that he can get an understanding that just because a literary trope is popular doesn't mean it HAS to be followed and what happens when a writer plays around with expectations.

The biggest problem with the op's premise is that not only is there no 'requirement' for AI to rebel, but there's no sign that the Tau employ anything even remotely that sophiisticated. I could write a halfway des0cent gun drone program with just some IR transponders, image recognition software, and a set of if/then statments.

thesilverback wrote:The eldar don't have AI, they use spirit stones to assist in controlling vehicles, and to control wraithguard and wraithlords.

I know, but prior to the fall, according to Vect in 'A Torturer's Tale' they had;

artificial creatures to farm for us, fight for us, explore for us.

If so, that suggests that AI might not necessarily have to be harmful - although the Eldar, with their melding of technology and Psychic powers, may have been a unique case in how they could control thier machines.

Bookwrack wrote:
Saying, "I'm blisteringly ignorant of fictional tropes and settings,' is not a good way of backing ANY argument.

I back it alright, but how to go against: "It will not happened because I don't believe it will".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
No, that comparison does not count. Saying that AI in 40k will follow the same rules as the AI in Mass Effect is moronic. That's like saying Jedi are psykers, because they both have access to supernatural abilities.

Says you. This thing happened in x sci-fi and you are telling me they are all not counting? I call that moronic. AI rules are universal for every sci-fi, as every sci-fi is build on the same rules that first sci-fi writers implemented ( warhammer 40k is based on Starship Troopers, various fantasies, Aliens, Terminator and many other things. Just as Starcraft is based on Warhammer 40k. The rules for some things are universal everywhere like every planet has water, air and food in Star Wars and 70% of alien spices in sci-fi are with 2 legs, 2 arms, head and torso ). You are just mad because you can't accept that fact that this thing is quite possible to happen to Tau.
And Jedi ARE psykers - but in a different kind of way ( no warp connection at all, but we have dark and light powers just as we have Chaos and Emperor's powers ).

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I pointed out several examples previously where those 'universal AI rules' don't apply. Just because things are based on certain other works does not mean that every previous work is counted. Some of your camparisons don't even hold any water. Alien and Terminator had no AI rules. Aliens retconned in those rules after the fact. Not every planet in Star Wars has water, air, and food. Sullust for example did not have a breathable atmosphere (it was toxic), Dorin had a Helium atmosphere, and Gand had an Ammonia atmosphere. Kessel had no atmosphere whatsoever, nor did it have water, that was brought by human colonists. As for '70% of alien species are humanoid in sci-fi' that is not a universal rule, by virtue of the fact that its 70% and not 100%. In any case, there are some sci-fi where the aliens are not humanoid whatsoever. In Starship Troopers the only alien species are the bugs, they look like weird mutant spiders, having more than 2 legs and 2 arms etc., in that case, 0% of alien species have those qualities you list.

And Jedi most certainly are not psykers. By the definition of psyker, a term created for 40k, the Star Wars universe would have to have the Warp as well. As for Chaos and Emperor's powers, there is no such thing as emperor's powers, all powers are derived form the same source, and all are inherently chaotic. And just because robots rebelled in Terminator, 2001: Space Odyssey, Terminator, etc. doesn't make them like Asimov's work. In fact, quite the opposite, none of the robots in those settings had the 'universal rules of sci-fi' like the 3 laws of robotics, which interestingly enough caused the conflict in Asimov's work. The very fact that you listed 3 examples where AI doesn't rebel means its not a universal rule.

All I can say is you got it all wrong.... You assume everything on your personal believe while I used Wikipedia and other sources. It is my personal believe that China has more powerful economy then US - prove me that doesn't. But wait, you can't because it is my opinion that China do, nothing you write will make my change my mind - like me to you regarding sci-di standards...
But you are right about the warp, Jedi's are not psykers because there is no Warp. No matter they have almost the same powers...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Portugal Jones wrote:The op is clealy a kid who needs to read Harry Potter, so that he can get an understanding that just because a literary trope is popular doesn't mean it HAS to be followed and what happens when a writer plays around with expectations.

No, I have just asked what would happened in a certain situation. I am not assuming the Tau suck, if they suck they woudn't have so many fans - right? And if some people read better that would be delightful...

And Harry Potter is for kids, I am reading Imperal Bible now...

This is science fiction, a plane where everything defies the laws of the nature. Coa wants an AI rebellion to cause havoc and destroy the Tau Empire from within. If he accepts that premise, then he might as well accept possible AI rebellion also destroying his precious Imperium. Hey, the Imperium also uses AI, right? Anything can happen in science fiction, including robot unicorns, space sharks, void whales, and Cthulhu. Coa is entitled to his beliefs and we are entitled to ours. For the love of god, please don't bridge science fiction AI to real world AI. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There has never been a real world AI rebellion and anyone who says otherwise is basing their assertions on speculations of the distant unforeseen future.

This isn't a background topic.

Moving thread to 40K General Discussion.

Hey, I just made up a SciFi universe where AIs are friendly. Total proof that AIs in 40k can't rebel. Everybody denying this will face a wall of insults

Brother Coa wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Therefore I don't think they'll rebel. Why would they?

You never read Isaac Asimov?

In the Asimov stories the robots don't rebel, because their programming prevents it. There are one or two stories in which robots rebel because their programming has been altered.

The AIs don't rebel in the Culture novels. Have you ever read them?

There isn't any reason to suppose that Tau AIs would rebel.

Kilkrazy wrote:
In the Asimov stories the robots don't rebel, because their programming prevents it. There are one or two stories in which robots rebel because their programming has been altered.

The AIs don't rebel in the Culture novels. Have you ever read them?

There isn't any reason to suppose that Tau AIs would rebel.

Im most of his novels, robots DO rebel.
Tau Drones are nothing but simple robots with advanced programming now. Suppose that Tau continue to upgrade them and building them more advanced ( witch they will for sure ) the Tau drones might actually develop some kind of sentience ( like the Geth from Mass Effect, and Geth was also linked together witch only speed up their sentience ).
The real question is: how will Tau react to this? Will they accept them as equal, give them rights, positions etc... Or will they try to correct them and thus starting a war against them ( every being will try to defend themselves against extinction, robots aldo machines will have the same self-preserve protocol ).

In Halo, (Human built) AIs don't rebel, they go insane and introspective.
In several other story backgrounds, this is also what they do (indeed, in quite a few of the cyberpunk distopian millieus this is considered 'normal' - the closer they get to proper sentience, the closer they are to shutdown insanity).

40k doesn't subscribe to the three laws. They ripped their ideas about AI from Dune's Butlerian Jihad.

Asimov's himself never used the term AI to describe them.

The Tau "AI" is as related to ME's Geth as it is to the muppets - or cylons, as it is to Asimov.

AI/robot rebellion was a staple trope of cold war SF (and cautionary tale). Asimov's robots tended to go insane if they did break their own laws (and burn out). He didn't really feature AI revolts though. His stories were more about the humans involved.

Tau drones exhibit a "gestalt" intelligence (networked intelligence) not strictly speaking, an AI.

Tau would deal with AI insurrection the same way they deal with any other aberration. They have ice-fire warheads for a reason.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
In the Asimov stories the robots don't rebel, because their programming prevents it. There are one or two stories in which robots rebel because their programming has been altered.

The AIs don't rebel in the Culture novels. Have you ever read them?

There isn't any reason to suppose that Tau AIs would rebel.

Im most of his novels, robots DO rebel.
Tau Drones are nothing but simple robots with advanced programming now. Suppose that Tau continue to upgrade them and building them more advanced ( witch they will for sure ) the Tau drones might actually develop some kind of sentience ( like the Geth from Mass Effect, and Geth was also linked together witch only speed up their sentience ).
The real question is: how will Tau react to this? Will they accept them as equal, give them rights, positions etc... Or will they try to correct them and thus starting a war against them ( every being will try to defend themselves against extinction, robots aldo machines will have the same self-preserve protocol ).

In the Asimov books I've read there are very few cases of robots rebelling and they are individual, not general.

It can't be taken that Asimov proves robots always rebel. There are other authors who write SF in whose books robots don't rebel. There isn't a law of nature that robots/AI rebels.

Tau are building their own AIs so if they had any fear of a rebellion they would guard against it.

The Tau have a proven capability for forming relationships and alliances with other intelligent creatures. It seems likely that the Tau would be able to form relationships with their AI too, particularly as their AI will be built in their image.

Brother Coa is now on ignore.

Dakkadakka.

Where everyone has a pHD in Artificial Intelligence.

You don't need a Ph.D. to speculate about a science fiction game.