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However people are forgetting you don't need artificial intelligence or programming to produce certain behaviours from robots. At the moment there is a rise in swarm intelligence whereby using very simple instructions swarms of small simple robots display complex behaviour.

There are swarms of puck bots that were only programmed to avoid bumping into each other that then developed a swarm behaviour following each other as swarms rather than moving as individual robots.

Essentially without knowing how or why they do it and without communication with each other they have learnt the most efficient way to move without bumping into each other.

This behaviour is greater than the sum of their programming.

If you expand the swarm idea onto more complex programming it is entirely possible to create unintended behaviours that could be undesirable.

Just because something is simple it doesn't necessarily make it predictable. One day one of those Tau drones sentient or not could just learn a behaviour which isn't for the greater good.

It's not an impossibility for it to happen, however the way fluff is being built at the moment is to add lots of "historical" detail whilst trying to keep the "present" at the current "two minutes to midnight" setting.

So whilst there is opportunity for this I feel it unlikely there would be such a paradigm shift in one if there races unless they were planning to delete the range and "squat" them.

The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?

Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?

No, it's Brother Coa logic.

It's hard to follow and burns my brain to think like it, but basically it's "Because it is a generic SciFi trope--it has to apply to 40k as well".

Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?

The 'logic' here would seem to be that because it's a cliché employed in a few generic science fiction settings then it must be inevitable here too.

Edit: beaten to it by Kan.

Kanluwen wrote:

Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?

No, it's Brother Coa logic.

It's hard to follow and burns my brain to think like it, but basically it's "Because it is a generic SciFi trope--it has to apply to 40k as well".

You are right Kan, as always.
But my real logic is "The same thing happened to pre-Imperial Humans who were peaceful and had higher tech level than Tau. What is the chance that the same thing will happened to Tau?"
And saying that they wont rebel because Tau are nice don't mean anything. My master can be nice to me all day when he send me in the field to die or in the mine to mine all day.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?

No, it's Brother Coa logic.

It's hard to follow and burns my brain to think like it, but basically it's "Because it is a generic SciFi trope--it has to apply to 40k as well".

You are right Kan, as always.
But my real logic is "The same thing happened to pre-Imperial Humans who were peaceful and had higher tech level than Tau. What is the chance that the same thing will happened to Tau?"
And saying that they wont rebel because Tau are nice don't mean anything. My master can be nice to me all day when he send me in the field to die or in the mine to mine all day.

You're assuming that Tau AIs are intelligent to the point of sentience.

They're currently not. They don't think of themselves as "slaves" to a "master". They just are.

Eldar machines never rebelled and they did EVERYTHING for the Eldar.

Why would Tau?

Kanluwen wrote:
You're assuming that Tau AIs are intelligent to the point of sentience.

They're currently not. They don't think of themselves as "slaves" to a "master". They just are.

I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.
And since Tau don't know how machines will react or evolve ( they ain't us - they don't have first hand expiriance ) there is a good chance they won't even notice that before it's to late.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You're assuming that Tau AIs are intelligent to the point of sentience.

They're currently not. They don't think of themselves as "slaves" to a "master". They just are.

I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.
And since Tau don't know how machines will react or evolve ( they ain't us - they don't have first hand expiriance ) there is a good chance they won't even notice that before it's to late.

AIs do not become self-aware unless they're programmed to gain intelligence.

The Tau know how their machines react because they made them.

Brother Coa wrote:
I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.

So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?

Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
I never said that, I said earlier in this thread that Tau Drones will become self aware in time - it is inevitable after all the upgrades and investments that Tau are putting in them.

So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?

Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.

It's already happened.

My microwave tried to kill me today. The machines are rebelling!

Nerivant wrote:
So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?

Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.

See what happened to Quarians... AS you upgrade them slowly peace by peace with enough time and enough upgrades machine can became sentient.
Didn't we almost do that like several years ago in Japan?

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
So, if I continue to upgrade and invest in my computer, instead of replacing it, it will become self-aware, given enough time?

Uh, guys... somewhere in the world, a Datapoint 2200 might be processing eight bits of human genocide.

See what happened to Quarians... AS you upgrade them slowly peace by peace with enough time and enough upgrades machine can became sentient.
Didn't we almost do that like several years ago in Japan?

Stop. Mentioning. Mass. Effect. It has no bearing on this discussion, as we've already proven.

Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.

Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.

Can we get a quote that says drones are incapable of learning et al so it can be put to bed? Or does one not exist?

Nerivant wrote:
Stop. Mentioning. Mass. Effect. It has no bearing on this discussion, as we've already proven.

No, you didn't prove anything. You just said you think that have nothing to do with it. Adn your opinion alone is hardly a proff.

Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.

Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.

Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:Can we get a quote that says drones are incapable of learning et al so it can be put to bed? Or does one not exist?

That quote does not exist, same thing as for the 90% of Tau background.

Quoting from page 31 of the tau codex.

"drones are independent artificial intelligences"

"when several intelligences are networked together in a squadron they are capable of acting independently for a long period of time"

So yes they have artificial intelligence and yes are capable of making independent decisions, so again not beyond the bounds of possibility that a drone makes a naughty decision.

To be honest I would see any "rebellion" as just being irritatingly unhelpful rather than wilfully attacking there masters.

Plus like I said before the way they write the fluff does seem to preclude this from happening due to the writers wanting to maintain the current status quo and wanting to flesh out the past. An example being how forgeworld went back and fleshed out the badab war and how lots of characters are actually dead in the current timeline and are being referred to in a past tense.

Brother Coa wrote:

Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.

Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.

Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...

So there you have it. Drones will never rebel.

coolyo294 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.

Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.

Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...

So there you have it. Drones will never rebel.

And what if GW launch Warhammer 41.000 ?

Brother Coa wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Drones are not capable of learning. They can't learn how to learn, either. They're limited to their function, and that function is not rebelling against the Tau.

Given the current fluff, it's not going to happen.

Unfortunately yes, we won't be able to see it since we are stuck in M40.999 for all eternity...

So there you have it. Drones will never rebel.

And what if GW launch Warhammer 41.000 ?

Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.

coolyo294 wrote:Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.

I was waiting to hear that all day... thank you good sir

Brother Coa wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.

I was waiting to hear that all day... thank you good sir

If... you knew what you wanted to hear... why did you make this thread?

Stop trolling Tau players.

Brother Coa wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.

I was waiting to hear that all day... thank you good sir

Now I feel stupid... Everyone please forgive me...

coolyo294 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Then there's the chance that Drones could rebel. But until then, it's not going to happen.

I was waiting to hear that all day... thank you good sir

Now I feel stupid... Everyone please forgive me...

No, it's okay. He misinterpreted your post, it's not your fault.

Nerivant wrote:
If... you knew what you wanted to hear... why did you make this thread?

Stop trolling Tau players.

First of all - I don't troll you guys, like you didn't troll us when you posted "10 Hammerheads against 10 Leman Russ".
Second of all - You only backing up for "no" was - because Tau wouldn't do that. And why they wouldn't do that? You maybe wouldn't do that because you knew the danger, Tau have no experience what so ever with this kind of thing.
Third of all - Give me some good argument beside "Tau won't let them became AI that because they know they will face apocalypse" or "because GW won't advance story-line" or "Because Tau are to noce to fire on them".

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
If... you knew what you wanted to hear... why did you make this thread?

Stop trolling Tau players.

First of all - I don't troll you guys, like you didn't troll us when you posted "10 Hammerheads against 10 Leman Russ".
Second of all - You only backing up for "no" was - because Tau wouldn't do that. And why they wouldn't do that? You maybe wouldn't do that because you knew the danger, Tau have no experience what so ever with this kind of thing.
Third of all - Give me some good argument beside "Tau won't let them became AI that because they know they will face apocalypse" or "because GW won't advance story-line" or "Because Tau are to noce to fire on them".

I started that thread and never once did I ask a question while waiting for an answer I already knew. I actually learned a great deal about vanquishers in that thread and not only how they work but the production capacities for their barrels.

Tau drones are not self-aware and never will be, simply because there's no reason to make them like that. All they do is follow their programming to determine the best course of action in their assigned jobs. They have no need for emotions or self-awareness, and comparisons to other SF works are meaningless. Simply put, Tau AI will never rebel.

Polvilhovoador wrote:The logic here is "because it happened to humans it HAS to happen to Tau too!" ?

No, it's the usual logic in Tau hater threads:
1.) Tau society is based on the principle of the Greater Good, i.e. that peace and mutual collaboration is better for the benefit of the society than killing each other on sight.
2.) Noone with even minimal intelligence would voluntarily accept a society where killing each other is limited (obvious as all babies try to kill their parents as soon as they are intelligent enough, it's just natural ).
3.) Therefore as soon as AI is intelligent enough to understand Tau society, the drones would of course fight for their God-given right to do massacres any time they want. Everyone would do that! Limiting massacres is so ... inhuman!

Therefore the question, when Tau drones will wipe out the Tau race (muahahaha). Makes sense in Mass Effect, must make sense in the real world

Next thread will feature the question, how susceptible Tau are to deseases and if it is possible to wipe out the race with biological weapons. Not out of hate of course, just scientific curiosity.

Next thread will be about animals on Sept worlds, if they might be capable of eating up the Tau race.

Next thread will be about the desert planet T'au. What if there were a severe drought on that Sept world. Would it wipe out a considerable part of the Tau race?

Next thread would be about what happened, if a major Hive Fleet would enter the Eastern Sector. How are the chances to wipe out the Tau race.

Next thread would be about auxiliary troops. If they all rebel, could they wipe out the Tau race?

Next thread would be about the warp storm once separating the T'au planet from the rest of the world. What if it came back? Would it wipe out the Tau race.

Next thread would be about T'au being an Eldar maiden world. How about the chances that Eldar wipe out the Tau race?

Next thread would be about T'au being a tomb world of the necrons. How about the chances that Necrons wipe out the Tau race?

Next thread ...

@trollpie Seem awful certain there fella. I'm guessing you must be writing that there fluff these days to nay say it so.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:Can we get a quote that says drones are incapable of learning et al so it can be put to bed? Or does one not exist?

There are none either way.

@killkrazy the quote I posted above states drones have artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is considered to have Five distinct areas/attributes these are Learning, reasoning, problem solving, perception and language understanding. Ergo tau drones may learn.

However this does not mean they would "rebel" nor does it imply any act of "rebellion" would be violent in nature.

Like I said before this could range from wholesale murder (extreme), being stubbornly unhelpful (like when your computer refuses to boot up) or even remarkably helpful when they ignore their program to execute tasks in a more efficient manner (still technically rebelling).

So the written fluff has left allowances for it to happen, it is unlikely due to the way fluff is written these days.

Just because something is unlikely it does not preclude it from happening.