Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

master of asgard wrote:Thanks guys! I'll post some more pics of the Dread a bit later. Fluff-wise, would there be such a thing as a Deathwatch Dreadnought?

I'd say the chances of it are pretty good considering one made the cover of a Deathwatch RPG book.

Hehe good point with the dread.

Awesome. Awesome in so many ways.

Looks like he'll be redrafted from my Fallen Angel cabal into the Deathwatch! As long as, that is, he's big enough? I put him together after a hunt through my teenage years Warhammer yielded a metal chaos dread and a metal SM dread, and I bashed the two together! My main motivation was making a dreadnought with thighs, so he looks like he could actually walk instead of waddling. He has washers at the waist, ankles and shoulder joints to make him taller and wider, and plasticard between the front and back to make him a bit deeper. The claw was made out of an old CSM power fist and Abbadon's talons, with a plastic dread shield thing over the top.

Here are some more picks as well as a scale shot with a normal marine. Unfortunately I don't have a normal dread to compare sizes with.







Enjoy!

What is going on with the head? I can't really see what it is.

SilverMK2 wrote:What is going on with the head? I can't really see what it is.

The top bit is a terminator shoulder pad, and the bottom bit is... I think from an old-style search light. Then the whole thing is encased in Razorback turret armour. I was kind of going for a knightly type of look with the eye slit.

I've just given it a quick drybrush of codex grey to try to make it a bit clearer for this photo, what do you think?

master of asgard wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:What is going on with the head? I can't really see what it is.

The top bit is a terminator shoulder pad, and the bottom bit is... I think from an old-style search light. Then the whole thing is encased in Razorback turret armour. I was kind of going for a knightly type of look with the eye slit.

I've just given it a quick drybrush of codex grey to try to make it a bit clearer for this photo, what do you think?

A Truescale Dread is certainly unique. I at least havn't seen any projects on one ( and that means there certainly haven't been any ) Kudos for that!

What chapter will he be from? Sticking with the DA theme or something else?

I think it is a little disproportionate at the moment. I think you're knight style head is a good idea, but a bit too bulky in the execution imho. Remember, there is a normal sized marine in there piloting it (at least as normal sized as a marine can get )

Are you planning any more construction on this bad boy? I think he could use some more leg armor and some deathwatch bling.

Keep up the good work!

Cheers,
Rawson

Will there by some nice colourful eyes for the dread? Also i would maybe make his legs a bit more bulky.. like maybe add additional armor plates.

Rawson wrote:
A Truescale Dread is certainly unique. I at least havn't seen any projects on one ( and that means there certainly haven't been any ) Kudos for that!

What chapter will he be from? Sticking with the DA theme or something else?

I think it is a little disproportionate at the moment. I think you're knight style head is a good idea, but a bit too bulky in the execution imho. Remember, there is a normal sized marine in there piloting it (at least as normal sized as a marine can get )

Are you planning any more construction on this bad boy? I think he could use some more leg armor and some deathwatch bling.

Keep up the good work!

Cheers,
Rawson

Well there's supposed to be a truescale marine in there!

I did see one project here, on the 2nd and 3rd page. I feel that, although it's amazingly impressive, it's a bit too big. I'm still not totally sure if mine's big enough, not having seen him next to a regular dread.

This Dread has gone through so much tinkering and messing with before this Truescale Deathwatch project was even conceived of, so I am a little bit hesitant to start messing with him again. Then again... why not?

I could beef up the front plates a bit to make his head look more sunken in to the sarcophagus rather than sticking out, which is the main problem right now I think. (Like I said he's solid metal so not much chance of sinking it back further) I can definitely given him some more leg armour, as my confidence with plasticard has improved a lot since I last worked on him. I could also do a similar style head, but with a normal SM shoulder pad instead. I think I will keep the outer cowling around his head because I quite like that.

As for what chapter I will make him, I'm not sure! I already have plans for a DA Watch Captain so I don't want to double up on chapters just yet. Which chapter (except Blood Angels) especially has a thing for Dreads? I'm definitely open to suggestions on this one, and yes, he will be getting some Deathwatch bling!

Thanks very much for the comments and the criticism. As my first project log, it's things like this that make it really fun!

p.s. the White Scar is coming along nicely, with a jump pack in the post, and after that will be the Raven Guard sniper! I know people have been looking forward to him. If I get to writing any fluff I'm going to have a bit of friendly rivalry between these two, as the White Scar has some talon-like claws and a jump-pack, he's basically nicked the Raven Guard's whole thing! So the Raven guard will be keeping a close eye on the Scar from the shadows with his telescopic lense to make sure this valuable equipment gets used properly and doesn't fall into the wrong hands...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

w0chtulka wrote:Will there by some nice colourful eyes for the dread? Also i would maybe make his legs a bit more bulky.. like maybe add additional armor plates.

I'm kind of liking the eye-slit thing, but you do have a point. Maybe I'll try some kind of freehand motif on his forehead and around his head to draw the eye to the center of the model. You're right about the armour plating. I'll make the shin guards thicker and bulkier as well as putting some armour on the thighs.

Cheers for the feedback!

master of asgard wrote:I've just given it a quick drybrush of codex grey to try to make it a bit clearer for this photo, what do you think?

I just think it is lacking detail. Perhaps use a pin drill to drill some vents or something into the faceplate? Add in some tubes and things?

Rawson wrote:A Truescale Dread is certainly unique. I at least havn't seen any projects on one ( and that means there certainly haven't been any ) Kudos for that!

Never seen a TS dread before?

SilverMK2 wrote:
I just think it is lacking detail. Perhaps use a pin drill to drill some vents or something into the faceplate? Add in some tubes and things?

Good idea. I think the basic idea is good but needs a lot more detail to execute it properly.

So here are a couple of updates on what I'm working on: the White Scars marine (his jump pack is in the post)





I love the spear and the pose, and I also love the lightning claws with the built in bolt pistols, yet I'm not quite sure if they work together. The idea was that if anybody got inside the range of his spear he'd have some close quarter attacking power. However, these combined with a jump pack kind of seem to me like he's just ripping off the Raven Guard way too much, and that they detract from the idea of the spear.

I could really do with some other opinions on this. If I take his claws off, that means I will be making another jump pack marine, Raven Guard this time, with the claws, but it also means I'll need another marine to be a sniper, and what other chapter would suit that role? (that I haven't already got one of)

In other news, I think the Dread could be an Iron Hand, seeing as they have lots of Dreadnoughts. It's kind of a shame because I was thinking of doing an Iron Hand heavy weapon trooper and experimenting with some bionics in the legs instead of GS.

I don't know how how to juggle, but I reckon it's probably easier than this!

Sniper guy.... hmm... maybe a Crimson fist? As they have a lot of scouts and this marine was a great sharpshooter so he was given permission not to have a holy bolter as his rifle and proceeded into ranks of Deathwatch with his old sniper rifle as there was no place for him in regular organisation of tactical/devastator/assault squads in crimson fists because of his exotic armament. Of course death watch doesnt randomly pick up guys that are "outcasts" but this was was such an excellent shooter that they included him. But im not very good at fluffhammer so this is just a thought

Imperial Monkey wrote:needs a crimson fist in the saqud.

w0chtulka wrote:Sniper guy.... hmm... maybe a Crimson fist? As they have a lot of scouts and this marine was a great sharpshooter so he was given permission not to have a holy bolter as his rifle and proceeded into ranks of Deathwatch with his old sniper rifle as there was no place for him in regular organisation of tactical/devastator/assault squads in crimson fists because of his exotic armament. Of course death watch doesnt randomly pick up guys that are "outcasts" but this was was such an excellent shooter that they included him. But im not very good at fluffhammer so this is just a thought

This was suggested earlier and I naysayed it. However after having a look through the Crimson Fists 40k wiki entry I must say that I owe Imperial Monkey an apology! The Crimson Fists are perfect for a sniper! I had gone against it for 2 reasons- too many IF successors, and the fact that the CFs got nearly annihilated so they would probably not spare marines for the Deathwatch.

How wrong I was. Check this out:

40k Wiki wrote: the Crimson Fists became skilled at combating many alien species, most notably the Orks. These skills have been valuable to the Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition, with many members of the Chapter serving terms with the elite Deathwatch...

the Crimson Fists are amoung the most highly regarded Xenos Fighters in the Imperium...

Despite their severe losses the Crimson Fists continue to second battle brothers to the DeathWatch...

after the Rynn's World Incident, the sheer amount of casualties has prevented the Chapter from fighting in the way prescribed by the Codex Astartes. Instead, Kantor has fielded his surviving Marines as infiltrators and guerrilla troops, attacking specific, high-value targets in an attempt to minimise casualties as opposed to engaging enemies in open battle.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Crimson_Fists

So yes, absolutely perfect in fact!

Cheers all!

So, new overall plan. The two Jump pack marines and the sniper are going to be a separate, hit-and-run/ stealth unit, because jump packs can't fit in a rhino, and what's the point in having a sniper in an APC? The sniper needs to cover the APC. So effectively these 3 will be like the vanguard and the sternguard of the squad, while the rest ride in the rhino and the Dread walks alongside.

Sweet!

or you could do either the jump pack or the sniper a mantis warior. Just an idea

risewiththefallen wrote:or you could do either the jump pack or the sniper a mantis warior. Just an idea

Dude, you're killing me here! Too... many... options!!!

Seriously though I'm trying to keep the chapters represented as well known as possible, like first or second founding mostly (well except the Exorcists). I have heard of the Mantis Warriors, but they don't spring to mind immediately when you think of Space Marines.

And here's the first update for today, work on the White Scar. I've tried to give him a little Genghis Khan mustache and eyebrows! Still needs a little bit of work so he's less mono-brow, and I'm going to give him a different top-knot that I've found.



I've also tried to do a little bit of sculpting, after all this project is to learn new skills. I'm not totally convinced that it'll look smooth enough but it'll be easier to tell once it's undercoated I guess. Looking closely at the picture, I think it'll need more work once it's cured a bit more.



My bits order arrived today, so now I have some more Deathwatch shoulder pads, so I can start making finished marines! Finished Space Wolf (except maybe one or two purity seals)





His best angle:


And the Salamander with his proper shoulder pad and heavy flamer:



So far the Salamander has been my favourite to make, partly because I like techmarines, but mostly because I had to do so much conversion work on him to make him characterful. for this reason, the Space Wolf has actually been my least favourite to work on because I already had loads of SW bits, and he just looks like pretty much thousands of other SWs out there, just a bit bigger. Don't get me wrong, I think he looks cool, but actually in this case having so many parts available to me made him a little bit... boring, IMO.

That's all for now, let me know what you think, or any tips!

Cheers

Absolutely gorgeous work- I'm a sucker for SMs, especially True Scale, and I'll definitely be taking a lesson from you when I start up my group's DW squad as well.

My favorite has to be the White Scar DW guy- so much flavor, and the bolter nestled between the claws is genius. I say keep the claws. It just seems "right" for a Scar's raiment. That, or a Raven Guard... but either way, I think it suits him.

In close second is the Salamander techmarine. I like his entire look, my only gripe is that the claw looks a tad bit too short/small, but it's a minor detail that I have no ideas on how to improve (unless buying the Chapterhouse biggerized tech claw...)

Consider me subscribed!

-Remi

HF Izanagi wrote:Absolutely gorgeous work- I'm a sucker for SMs, especially True Scale, and I'll definitely be taking a lesson from you when I start up my group's DW squad as well.

My favorite has to be the White Scar DW guy- so much flavor, and the bolter nestled between the claws is genius. I say keep the claws. It just seems "right" for a Scar's raiment. That, or a Raven Guard... but either way, I think it suits him.

In close second is the Salamander techmarine. I like his entire look, my only gripe is that the claw looks a tad bit too short/small, but it's a minor detail that I have no ideas on how to improve (unless buying the Chapterhouse biggerized tech claw...)

Consider me subscribed!

-Remi

Thanks for the amazing comments! I'm really enjoying working on the White Scar, and it's been a bit of a dilemma whether to keep the claws or not. I have a feeling they make him seem a bit too busy. At the moment he doesn't have them and he looks like this:



They can always be reattached at a later date if I feel like it, but at the moment I'm thinking of putting them on a Raven Guard character- I like them too much to pass up the idea!

I know what you mean about the claw arm, it does almost look a bit dainty, but I think that fits in nicely with the truescale vibe. I could have used the massive claw that comes with the techmarine, but it was just way too overwhelming. It's tricky trying to get the aesthetic just right to look badass, elegant, and also dangerous and serviceable at the same time, which is why I'm doing this log!

Thanks a lot for your comment and the subscription!

master of asgard wrote:Thanks for the amazing comments! I'm really enjoying working on the White Scar, and it's been a bit of a dilemma whether to keep the claws or not. I have a feeling they make him seem a bit too busy. At the moment he doesn't have them and he looks like this:

I think he looks better without the claws personally. With the spear and the claws, he runs into the Shrike quandry... where shrike has a bolt pistol but also no way to fire it with two lightning claws! I'd keept the spear for the White Scar and use the claws for a Raven Guard marine instead. If you've got blades attached to both your forearms, you're probably unlikely to use another close combat weapon at the same time. Either way, I think your most recent space wolf is definitely my favorite. That chainsword puts Gabriel Seth's to shame!

master of asgard wrote:
Thanks for the amazing comments! I'm really enjoying working on the White Scar, and it's been a bit of a dilemma whether to keep the claws or not. I have a feeling they make him seem a bit too busy. At the moment he doesn't have them and he looks like this:



They can always be reattached at a later date if I feel like it, but at the moment I'm thinking of putting them on a Raven Guard character- I like them too much to pass up the idea!

I know what you mean about the claw arm, it does almost look a bit dainty, but I think that fits in nicely with the truescale vibe. I could have used the massive claw that comes with the techmarine, but it was just way too overwhelming. It's tricky trying to get the aesthetic just right to look badass, elegant, and also dangerous and serviceable at the same time, which is why I'm doing this log!

Thanks a lot for your comment and the subscription!

Hmm... He looks alright without them, but the model read to me that if he lost his spear (and he hacks/stabs with it, not so much of the Chinese Wuxia movie flourishes) he'd have the claws. Plus, the bolter in between them? Stab and fire, baby!! Stab and fire!!

Either way, I can tell they're gonna be great- plus your painting is definitely solid. (great OSL on your first guy)

Er... do you mind if I ask you how you made the bolter/claw combo? Parts and such?

-Remi

The squad is looking great. I've been collecting bits for a deathwatch scout squad. I'm not doing it true scale at this point though.

I love the deathwatch. It's so fun to model, and you are doing a fantastic job of it.

One thing, though... that dread is looking a little chaotic to me.

epicness incarnate = subbed

Fantastic work! You've inspired me to create my own squad of Deathwatch to accompany my Inquisitor. Keep up the good work!

I think I've solved the problem of what do do with this guy. Double auxiliary grenade launchers anyone?


Or just one?


Or none? If he has none then there's still the problem of what gun he'd have and where to put it.

warboss wrote:
I think he looks better without the claws personally. With the spear and the claws, he runs into the Shrike quandry... where shrike has a bolt pistol but also no way to fire it with two lightning claws! I'd keept the spear for the White Scar and use the claws for a Raven Guard marine instead. If you've got blades attached to both your forearms, you're probably unlikely to use another close combat weapon at the same time. Either way, I think your most recent space wolf is definitely my favorite. That chainsword puts Gabriel Seth's to shame!

Thanks, I'm glad you like the Wolf! I agree that he looks better without the claws, but what do you think of the pics above?

HF Izanagi wrote:
Hmm... He looks alright without them, but the model read to me that if he lost his spear (and he hacks/stabs with it, not so much of the Chinese Wuxia movie flourishes) he'd have the claws. Plus, the bolter in between them? Stab and fire, baby!! Stab and fire!!

Either way, I can tell they're gonna be great- plus your painting is definitely solid. (great OSL on your first guy)

Er... do you mind if I ask you how you made the bolter/claw combo? Parts and such?

-Remi

Thanks, it was my first serious attempt with this OSL technique and I'm looking forward to using it to various degrees throughout the whole squad.

I know what you mean about losing the primary weapon, but I'm going to give him one of those curved sheathed swords from the berzerker sprue. And well... you can see what else above!

As for parts, each one had:
-Two blades from the ends of the old-style Dark Eldar splinter rifles/cannon (?) I used a lot of these on my old Harlequins so some were requisitioned from them.
-A chaos bolt pistol, the one with the little face on it. Although you could just use an Imperial one because I ended up using the clips off Imperial bolt pistols anyway.

The BP had the sight, the gubbinz around the barrel and the handle trimmed off, as well as the very back bit of the gun, so the cut was in line with the armour plating. I also cut down where the ammo clip goes in.
Here's a comparison shot with the gun I used, hope it helps!

The Good Green wrote:The squad is looking great. I've been collecting bits for a deathwatch scout squad. I'm not doing it true scale at this point though.

I love the deathwatch. It's so fun to model, and you are doing a fantastic job of it.

One thing, though... that dread is looking a little chaotic to me.

Thanks! They're great fun aren't they- each one has so much scope for individuality and customisation. I mean, each chapter has it's own personality, but it's hard to convey that and contrast it when all your guys are one colour!

Interesting idea for the scout squad, I didn't know DW had scouts, but it's certainly a cool and fitting idea for them. Put them up when you do them? Late last night my fevered imagination had the idea of turning this into a whole Inquisitorial party- Inquisitor and retinue, sentinels to escort the dread, Inquisitorial storm troopers... I don't know if I can do this because it would probably lose the fun for me and get too expensive, but I can dream!

And yes, the dread does look a bit Chaotic because once apon a time he was! He was also originally intended for a Fallen Angels army so I made him to look a little ambiguous.

shakey787 wrote:epicness incarnate = subbed

This is music to my ears. Best comment ever.

Farty Wiffmas wrote:Fantastic work! You've inspired me to create my own squad of Deathwatch to accompany my Inquisitor. Keep up the good work!

Cheers! I hope this thread gives you some ideas. It's emptying my wallet but it's great fun!


Thanks to everyone for their input and comments. What do you make of the grenade launchers? They're just tacked on right now, but too bulky or just right? I think he looks quite sleek without them, but I'm not sure which way to go.

I just want to complete the picture of this guy for people- he's also going to have a jump pack merging the BA sanguinary guard packs with a normal JP, so one big engine in the middle and two smaller ones on the side. I saw this on another forum somewhere and think it looks wicked.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rawson wrote:How much time are you spending per marine?

master of asgard wrote:As for how long each model takes, it's hard to say. I think I spend just as long admiring them, looking at them from different angles and re-positioning them as I do actually working on them. I can get the basic body, legs and GS work down in maybe half an hour or so, but then the rest is a bit more dependent on the model.

I must admit Rawson, that this was a wild underestimate on my part. Maybe gluing the two halves of the body together with the plasticard spacers cut to size, and GSing the legs takes about half an hour. All told, each one probably would take about 2 hours to get the basic GS work (legs and torso) and the backpack completed. This would give you a basic marine with arms at his sides. Then there's messing around with shoulder pads. Anything extra like the figures I'm making with added detail and stuff takes a good few hours each, longer with all the reposing and reconverting.

Here's a little preview of the Raven Guard with claws in his blu-tac phase. He will also have a jump-pack. Enjoy!

Nice!

I like the Ravenguard guy! Consider your bolter-idea borrowed- with my thanks! For our own campaign, I was considering being a different chapter... but now that I think about it... a RG with claws and jetpack (if allowed)... it's almost too tempting to pass up. Plus, the pose can be much more dynamic in nature.

Either way, glad to see the claws have not left, as those are definitely artificer-quality! How many more guys to make, and I'm not sure if I missed it, but you use Terminator kit components for these guys?

-Remi

Begel Dverl wrote:Nice!

Cheers!

HF Izanagi wrote:I like the Ravenguard guy! Consider your bolter-idea borrowed- with my thanks! For our own campaign, I was considering being a different chapter... but now that I think about it... a RG with claws and jetpack (if allowed)... it's almost too tempting to pass up. Plus, the pose can be much more dynamic in nature.

Either way, glad to see the claws have not left, as those are definitely artificer-quality! How many more guys to make, and I'm not sure if I missed it, but you use Terminator kit components for these guys?

-Remi

Borrow away! Glad you like him- no way was I going to miss a chance to use the claws! What is this campaign, is it Deathwatch RPG?

Well I have parts for 3 more guys after the Scar and the Raven are made, which will be the (now) Crimson Fist Sniper, an Imperial Fist melta specialist and one other to be decided, probably the Black Templar. After that, I'm going to get the 8 that I have painted, get the Dread modified, as well as getting some plasicard to have a bash at truescaling this Rhino. That should give me enough time to earn some more money to buy the next box of terminators to fill out the 10 man squad.

So all in all this Ordo Xenos task force will be a 10-man squad including Captain, Librarian, Techmarine and Apothecary, a 3-man support force of sniper and Jump pack troopers, a Rhino and a Dreadnought. Quite a formidable force I reckon!

Bit of a problem though is that there are no more of the =I= shoulder pads on ebay, so if anyone has any they aren't using I need 5 in total and I will be very happy to trade for other bits, which I have lots of. Same applies for the little telescopic sights, I think i need one or two of those.

Thanks for looking, more updates to come soon

master of asgard wrote:What do you make of the grenade launchers? They're just tacked on right now, but too bulky or just right? I think he looks quite sleek without them, but I'm not sure which way to go.

Not a fan of the grenade launchers at all. Don't overthink it too much. He is great the way he is.
I don't think you need to try to squeeze a full sized bolter in there, or even the sword if it's a hassle. Most assault marines only have a CCW and a bolt pistol anyway.

master of asgard wrote:Here's a little preview of the Raven Guard with claws in his blu-tac phase. He will also have a jump-pack. Enjoy!

Totally digging this guy! IMHO, if you rotate the hands some, you'll get a more dynamic model. The foreward hand looks like he's shooting something, and more so because the hand is open (maybe that's the look you were going for). I think if you give him a closed fist, and make the hand almost palm up, it would look like he's in mid-stab. He already has a great stance for a pose like that(good work on that, btw). Also, if you gave the other hand a fist and made it palm out, it would look like shank #2 about to be unleashed. What do you think?

Cheers,
Rawson

I simply just love these models and i love(d) the thought of a raven guard sniper... But if you're looking for some i do think that the Mantis Warriors use Snipers..

Yaay my favourite ostrich helmet

Rawson wrote:Not a fan of the grenade launchers at all. Don't overthink it too much. He is great the way he is.
I don't think you need to try to squeeze a full sized bolter in there, or even the sword if it's a hassle. Most assault marines only have a CCW and a bolt pistol anyway.

Once again Rawson strikes with the good advice! You're right, I'm keeping him as he is with the spear. I may attacha bolt pistol to his leg in the same way as the Ultra, and I'll see if a sword fits on, but if it doesn't I won't stress it!

Rawson wrote:Totally digging this guy! IMHO, if you rotate the hands some, you'll get a more dynamic model. The foreward hand looks like he's shooting something, and more so because the hand is open (maybe that's the look you were going for). I think if you give him a closed fist, and make the hand almost palm up, it would look like he's in mid-stab. He already has a great stance for a pose like that(good work on that, btw). Also, if you gave the other hand a fist and made it palm out, it would look like shank #2 about to be unleashed. What do you think?

Cheers,
Rawson

I can see what you mean but there are a couple of things which held me back from this. Firstly I didn't want to just cut the gun butt off a normal hand and leave it at that because it looks wrong- like they're still holding something in their hand. Secondly, I was totally stumped for finding hands that didn't look like they should be holding anything, for both sides. In the end I made both hands out of the left hand of the SM rocket launcher guy, just moving the thumb over for the right hand. They're going to get some GS to make them look more realistic.

I did make it as though he was shooting, rather than slashing. And I thought as the Raven Guard are quite fast the open hands would make him look more aerodynamic, like he was running and taking a shot mid-stride.

megabambam wrote:I simply just love these models and i love(d) the thought of a raven guard sniper... But if you're looking for some i do think that the Mantis Warriors use Snipers..

Thanks! I know what you mean about the appeal of the Raven Guard sniper. Hopefully you'll still like the Crimson Fist sniper- I'll try to make him look characterful!

w0chtulka wrote:Yaay my favourite ostrich helmet

Well how could I have a Raven Guard without the classic beakie helmet?