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Toastedandy wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:I'm not a good enough player to adapt to new situations, thats why I can't beat them. >.>

Fixed. Might sound harsh, but it's true.

wow, didn't see the sarcasm in my post then?

Rofl its hard to miss.

Toastedandy wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:I'm not a good enough player to adapt to new situations, thats why I can't beat them. >.>

Fixed. Might sound harsh, but it's true.

wow, didn't see the sarcasm in my post then?

Sarcasm doesn't carry very well over the interwebz.

I think it's a strong codex that does an excellent job in allowing a number of viable and very different builds for a GK force.

I don't think it's overpowered but I do think certain armies will struggle to cope with many GK lists unless they adapt tactics and in some cases tweak their all-comers lists to allow for the possibility of the various GK builds.

If you do think the GK codex is broken then you presumably think that Imperial Weaklings and Werewolf-wannabe codices are broken too (it's fine if you do think that by the way).

I will say that I think some aspects of the GK are a wee bit overpowered. Especially Sanctuary, which I think should affect only units assaulting a specified GK unit within 12" of the librarian not units assaulting every unit within 12" of the Librarian. But also Warp Rift which (like JotWW should allow at least an invun save). Terminator armour having frag and krak raises eyebrows too but I think that will become more widespread moving forwards anyway, at least for terminators without storm shields.

As nos said, althoug Ward could have done a better job with his wording, what he's created list-wise is actually really, really good with respect to allowing a variety of solid, competitive builds that are not in fact overpowered but throw new things into the mix.

Hi!

Yes totally OP! The amount of weapons they have practically comes in it's own codex!!! The special rules are far too numerous! And some of the fluff.....please!!!!

People say about SW being OP but (biased slightly) I do not agree! Whenever a new codex comes out, the army is OP and people flock to them - I saw this many many years ago and still seeing it today!

So you always lose to GK? because they're so overpowered?

Maybe you do. But honestly it makes me chuckle. half the interweb seems to say GK are rubbish because they don't have x, y and z or are vulnerable to a, b and c, the other half cries about ridiculous overpowerment (Granted there are a few voices in the middle of the road also). It can't be both, so at least one opinion must be wrong. Of course it's just possible that both extreme opinions are wrong and in fact the GK are just new, have new things to deal with and people have difficulty adapting (and that can be for any number of reasons from wilfull stubborness in not reconsidering tactics or all comers list to simply not yet having got to grips with the various GK threats).

Omegus wrote:"Solid"? He usually needs a FAQ entry for practically every single page of rules he writes.

That's because his writing style is open to interpretation, and gamers seem to immediately gravitate towards the douche-iest thing possible, forcing an FAQ from GW. It doesn't mean that his rules are bad. Case in point: Dreadknight with personal teleporters shunting during the Scout move. Everyone knew it wasn't going to be allowed, people did it anyway, and then got all upset when an FAQ rendered the tactic completely illegal.

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfen Andy wrote:Hi!

Yes totally OP! The amount of weapons they have practically comes in it's own codex!!! The special rules are far too numerous! And some of the fluff.....please!!!!!

This, coming from a SW player, is one of the funniest things I've read today.

L. Wrex

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfen Andy wrote:Hi!

Yes totally OP! The amount of weapons they have practically comes in it's own codex!!! The special rules are far too numerous! And some of the fluff.....please!!!!!

This, coming from a SW player, is one of the funniest things I've read today.

L. Wrex

They are hardly broken, while having good firepower and melee strength they are outnumbered most of the time (Henchmen armies excluded) and losing key units quickly reduce their fighting strength.

The main thing to remember is that every army in 40k (perhaps in general although I do not play others) have strengths and weaknesses and it takes a good general to discover both!

They are more or less balanced with the rest of the 5. edition books ( except Tyranids which are subpar ).

WUlfen - what, wolfie wolfborn, riding his giant wolf with a wolt necklace and a pair of wolf claws isnt equally redonkulous?

Wolves not overpowered? The entire internet respectfully disagrees. if it were a case of "newer codex is OP" then why is SW still winning the majority or tournies?

The 2011 Nova Tournament results give some insight into the strength of the army.
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/09/nova-statistics-part-1.html

This chart is slightly misleading as 5/16 of the top players were GK. Overall, I would suggest the article as its very well written.

Zalmout wrote:I run a deathstar mob of paladins with draigo and about 3 psyrifle dreads. It works well enough with the friendly gamers, but obviously isn't very tournament oriented.

So, a Draigowing and Psyflemen Dreads isn't tournie material? You're insane. Maybe play something that isn't a kick your teeth in list with them, and they'll stop bitching.

Wulfen Andy wrote:

Wulfen Andy wrote:Hi!

Yes totally OP! The amount of weapons they have practically comes in it's own codex!!! The special rules are far too numerous! And some of the fluff.....please!!!!!

This, coming from a SW player, is one of the funniest things I've read today.

L. Wrex

What you think that SW fluff is worse than GK fluff? Like Draigo wondering through the REALM OF CHAOS or more to the point where chaos and the gods of chaos rule, killing everything in his path? No daemon wanting to take him on? Or Draigo the all powerful besting a DAEMON PRIMARCH?!?!?!?!? Come on pppplllllllleeeeeeeeeeaaaaasssseeee!!!! Primarchs being walking gods, far mightier than their bretheren but not this one, oh no, his skills have been INCREASED through the powers of chaos and still he is tattooed by a LONE grey knight with revenge upon his agenda?!?!

Depends on your preference, I prefer the Grey Knights in general and you picked ONE piece of fluff and placed the usual hyperbole on it. Its nice to see that you dodged having to answer to the other two points. Space Wolves have a silly number of special rules and weapons.

The only things that classify as Op are space wolves and guard. Playing against grey knights with MEQ forces requires more than just bumrushing them. Something most players do in spades.

iproxtaco wrote:
Depends on your preference, I prefer the Grey Knights in general and you picked ONE piece of fluff and placed the usual hyperbole on it. Its nice to see that you dodged having to answer to the other two points. Space Wolves have a silly number of special rules and weapons.

+1 to this.

L. Wrex

I've faced GK with 2 different armies (SW drop spam and MotF SM HW gunline). Neither battle was particularly close... the second wasn't even competitive.

I agree that space wolves are more OP than GK

GK imo are a strong codex. when using a power build designed for tournaments they are borderline OP but being at the line and crossing that line are nto the same. they are on the balance side of that line imo.

They are MEQ, they do die like regular MEQ.

tactically they are harder to beat then regular MEQ and make me as an ork player have to think more about target priority adn strategic retreats /withraws when for example a purifier group is getting uncomfortably close to my group of 30 ork boys w/ nob and pk.. short of a furioso dred one of the only thing i won't charge them at. but as with all things they are beatable and I find them quite fun to play.

In fact I have a fluff list I am goign to buil;d witht them... 3 assassins draigo and paladns for troops very few models and the idea is a fun army that is somewhat tough twith very few models for carrying around in a small case (for examople to bring to conventions and not be a hinderance)

Since we are all chiming in...I would not out-rightly say the codex is overpowered. The SW, BA, IG codexs are all extremely strong and can compete against any army. But, I would say GK have the strongest codex, no I dont say this for lack of experience of playing them. I have played them many many times. No I dont say this because they are a brand new codex. I say this because of the fact that for the points you get units which trump ever other MEQ army. Mass force weapons means tyranids auto lose if two generals of equal skill, orks will get gunned down, and beat in assault due to purifiers and mass power weapons, not to mention storm bolters chew through orks. The GK codex has made units which are too good when compared to any other dex(excluding grey hunters). I am not saying that Gk are unstoppable and will never lose. But I would say the Gk codex is the strongest codex in 5th edition. Not to mention psybolt ammo and fortitude, this simply makes all of their vehicles absurdly better than any loyalist vehicle. I find it surprising when people say the GK codex is average, when it is quite obviously one of the strongest books we have seen in the pasty years. The army has widespread force weapons with absurd shooting, SW, Gk and Ig will continue to dominate, along with a sprinkle of BA, DE and a few other out liars. But the majority of the time, it will be SW, GK, and IG on the top tables.

Backfire wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Orks don't

Orks do have plasma: Kustom Megablasta's are plasma weapons. Sure, they kinda suck for Orks, but anyway...

No, they don't.

KMB aren't plasma weapons. They Get Hot and are AP 2, but that doesn't make them plasma . The Syphon doesnt work on them either

They are also pretty few and far between in the army (and even less used since orks don't have 3+ armour to soak the inevitable overheat.).

Chowderhead wrote:

Zalmout wrote:I run a deathstar mob of paladins with draigo and about 3 psyrifle dreads. It works well enough with the friendly gamers, but obviously isn't very tournament oriented.

So, a Draigowing and Psyflemen Dreads isn't tournie material? You're insane. Maybe play something that isn't a kick your teeth in list with them, and they'll stop bitching.

I had always thought you ran with all purifiers and psyrifle dread in a tourney list...so I never thought my Death star as that competitive. Yes it's a bitch and a half to beat, but there have been many times against a CSM player where all I have left is 3 paladins taking withering fire from Oblits across the map.

But SW have weaknesses like the rest! I like that bar chart which shows SW not winning as much as others. Yes I agree that the wolves have their fair share of talismans etc, butall armies also go into battle with a decent amount of wargear and GK are no exception! Although I went up against a Nids tournament army with SW and Orks, I lost every single soldier! The last battle with my wolves, I won by getting the VIP away, but was very lucky to have a rampaging Redeemer doing a lot of good work for me!

GK aren't overpowered. I ran Tyranids against my WAAC friend playing GK this last Monday simply to prove a point, and won. If we kept going, I would have tabled him. AND I was hungover.

Wulfen Andy wrote:
What you think that SW fluff is worse than GK fluff? Like Draigo wondering through the REALM OF CHAOS or more to the point where chaos and the gods of chaos rule, killing everything in his path? No daemon wanting to take him on? Or Draigo the all powerful besting a DAEMON PRIMARCH?!?!?!?!? Come on pppplllllllleeeeeeeeeeaaaaasssseeee!!!! Primarchs being walking gods, far mightier than their bretheren but not this one, oh no, his skills have been INCREASED through the powers of chaos and still he is tattooed by a LONE grey knight with revenge upon his agenda?!?!

Don't be such a fanboy. GK fluff hate was so 4 months ago.

So becoming a Daemon only boosts his power, without giving him any sort of negative side effects? It's some kind of hyperbolic black and white power boost? Does it make him over 9000 yet? The way I see, there should be some give and take. It's like becoming a Vampire in White Wolf, an Outsider in D&D, or any other 'transformation' in an actual sane world with sane readers. There's disadvantages to everything.

What Draigo does is fight Daemons. He has tools and skills to do this. GK are DESIGNED to kill daemons. Draigo is one of the best, apparently, at what he does, and yet he still couldn't kill him. He opted instead to humiliate him, because that was the most severe wound he could deliver.

With regard to him wandering through Chaos killing everything: Maybe no Daemon wants to take him on because it's funny? What he's doing is like trying to drain an ocean by bailing with a spoon. It's futile, they realize it, and that amuses them. He's the fly in the china shop, not the bull. That's pretty grimdark when you think about it.

GK's are sorta weird in a power sense. They can be horrifically broken against certain armies, and it's rather difficult to imagine why on earth Mat Ward thought psybolt ammo on 2x TLLAC dreads should be a mere 5pt upgrade when most players would still go out of their way to take it even for 20pts, and the shootyness of the list is in some areas more capable than it should be given the combat ability of the army.

That said, I don't think they're the worst army out in a general sense, though definitely in top 3 or 4. Unless running Purifiers they have issues with horde enemies and IG tank parking lots, along with generally being rather limited in number they seldom make good "all comers" lists. vicious anti-MEQ, they are a horrifically good anti-elite army, but do have issues with more numerous foes.

The GK's definitely aren't as silly as they were in the leaked early build that came out in march or so, where Dreadknights were the same cost they are now but had better Strength, Toughness, and a better Invul, henchmen had no limit on the number of meltaguns/plasmaguns/flamers they could take, warding staves gave a flat 2+ invul, etc.

All this wonderful anecdotal evidence about beating your casual buddies at the FLGS aside....

Most people here need to go to a tourney and get back to me. Look at the data that has been compiled from both Ard Boyz and the NoVa Open. In a very short amount of time the GK codex has established itself as the top book out there. Sure, some will say that people aren't prepared for it yet, but GK players have had equally small (I say that relatively) amounts of time to scratch the surface of some of the really ridiculous builds.

Now, I'm not sitting here saying that GK are unbeatable, but I will certainly claim that they army is a definite example of codex creep. I have talked to many people on this subject and even at the NoVa Open, everyone seemed to agree that GK is at least a little bit better than anything else out there atm.

The reasons that I think GK aren't universally accepted as the top dex:

1. Noob traps. People believe GK should have "20-25% less models" than normal MEQ. This is false. They can field just as many if you ignore bloated options and even more with the auto include of Coteaz.
2. Lack of play in competitive events. Hint: your basement (usually) doesn't count. Again, look at the recent results....

GK can come up with some of the most flexible builds and over the top options for less points than anything else. Coteaz is woefully underpriced. Fortitude has changed the entire game. Sure, you face 3 Rhinos and it's no big deal. How about 8 Psy-backs, 3 Psfleman, a big Termie deathstar, 2-3 MSU Purifiers, and 5 other troop choices because of the underpriced nature of henchman all at 2k? Oh, and the Henchman can just hide in reserves so that they are unaffected by the psybacks exploding. Everything is immune to shaken/stunned. 24 twin linked st 6 shots with 12 twin linked st 8 shots plus all the Termie and Purifier firepower. Hordes? No problem. A single Purifier will wipe out half the unit before it attacks. Deep strike in or reserve you say? Hope you don't come in within 12" of Coteaz, or else those termies get free shots. Want to assault anything? Well, have fun taking difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

Again, I'm not saying this is a zomg unbeatable list, but it certainly can take the game to a level in which lots of things cannot compete. This is just one example of a myriad of incredible lists that can be created and used by good players to absolutely dominate. Based on the undercosted nature of lots of elements (Coteaz, henchman, Fortitude, Psycannons, grenades, ect) the advantages add up quickly.

So please, give GK the respect they deserve. Anyone listing them as anything less than a top 3 dex doesn't know what they are talking about.

My main beef with them is a Crowe Purifiers list. In the big Pokemon battle that is 40k they have an answer for everything. Cleansing flame eats hordes, power weapons at I 6 destroy any kind of elite to semi elite troops. S 10 hammers will stop anything with an AV.

Wulfen Andy wrote:But SW have weaknesses like the rest! I like that bar chart which shows SW not winning as much as others. Yes I agree that the wolves have their fair share of talismans etc, butall armies also go into battle with a decent amount of wargear and GK are no exception! Although I went up against a Nids tournament army with SW and Orks, I lost every single soldier! The last battle with my wolves, I won by getting the VIP away, but was very lucky to have a rampaging Redeemer doing a lot of good work for me!

A whole lot less weakness than some other armies. They're arguably on par with the Imperial Guard in power, that's been discussed. It goes both ways remember, and the Grey Knights have a LOT of weaknesses. No offence, but don't you think that has something to do with the player skill level? Not necessarily saying you aren't a decent player, but one single person's experiences against an army that can be very nasty in the hands of a skilled player isn't a generalization for the entire player base. From all the threads about them, it's blindingly obvious that Space Wolves have a lot of things that are overpowered, you can't argue against that.

JGrand wrote:All this wonderful anecdotal evidence about beating your casual buddies at the FLGS aside....

Most people here need to go to a tourney and get back to me. Look at the data that has been compiled from both Ard Boyz and the NoVa Open. In a very short amount of time the GK codex has established itself as the top book out there. Sure, some will say that people aren't prepared for it yet, but GK players have had equally small (I say that relatively) amounts of time to scratch the surface of some of the really ridiculous builds.

Well, my point, though apparently lost, was that if two seasoned players of about equal levels of skill who don't go easy on each other play, Grey Knights do not necessarily auto-win, which seems to be what all the sheep are bleating over right now. And we've both been to a couple Adepticons, multitudes of local tournaments, and 'Ard Boyz up to regionals, so we've been around the block a time or two. Hardly 'casual' gamers.

As far as Ard Boyz goes, there's two things that need to be taken into account here. First off, not everyone has dealt with GK. That's a huge disadvantage. I get steamrolled usually the first time I play an army. I don't know it, don't know what it will do, and, for that matter, if the other guy is even playing it right. And the 30 seconds you might get to glance at the other guy's codex is not long enough. So they're an unknown.

The other thing you need to consider is that every old DH players is now a GK player. To paraphrase a quote I recall seeing on someone's sig: "An average DH player is now a good GK player." The same tactics work, but they actually have decent tools to do what they need to.

Now, I'm not sitting here saying that GK are unbeatable, but I will certainly claim that they army is a definite example of codex creep. I have talked to many people on this subject and even at the NoVa Open, everyone seemed to agree that GK is at least a little bit better than anything else out there atm.

The reasons that I think GK aren't universally accepted as the top dex:

1. Noob traps. People believe GK should have "20-25% less models" than normal MEQ. This is false. They can field just as many if you ignore bloated options and even more with the auto include of Coteaz.
2. Lack of play in competitive events. Hint: your basement (usually) doesn't count. Again, look at the recent results....

There has been codex creep, from 4th edition to 5th, sure, but the 5ed edition codexes are still incredibly balanced with one another, and I've seen no reason to believe that GK ARE better beyond the fast that they won games. I mean, DA won significantly more games than GK did even. Why are we not accusing them of being overpowered?

Look, I'm not saying that GK are underpowered. I'm making the case that 5th edition is actually fairly balanced within itself and most armies within that edition can compete with each other. If you look at the win percentages of the "empirical" data we have, the top 7 armies are all within 10% of each other, and GK are within 3% of 5 other armies.

I'll give you that they're within the top 6 codexes, sure. Anything more than that is either Chicken Little talk or reflecting a poor understanding of statistics.

daedalus wrote:I mean, DA won significantly more games than GK did even. Why are we not accusing them of being overpowered?

Because it's one event with a super small sample size. There was literally less than 1/6th as many DA players as GK players, so variance one way or another is likely to be huge, especially considering that had only 1 DA player lost or tied only 1 more game than they did they'd go from having the highest % representation at win tables of any army there to the lowest. The data is functionally irrelevant.

Well, yeah, that's kind of my point. It's not really data we can depend on to make claims. Maybe if we could get this kind of data after a year or so, but by then, there will be several new codexes out and GK will have been forgotten as the overpowered codex because Necrons and god knows what else will be out by then.

Even then, I don't think there's still any real major codex creep going on. I think it's that "new and shiny" = "scary".