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im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

Seriously? This fething thread again? Why in the hell did you think about posting this? Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

Because Matt Ward is bad writer.
They seriously need to get Abnett into codex business.

Brother Coa wrote:Because Matt Ward is bad writer.

I wouldn't cast stones if I were you.

They seriously need to get Abnett into codex business.

No, they don't. The fluff in the codices is fine.

They need to get Abnett, his fluff is just pure epic ( at least to me ).

Brother Coa wrote:They need to get Abnett, his fluff is just pure epic ( at least to me ).

No, the don't. The fluff is fine, ignore what you don't like, or at least try to understand what a passage REALLY means instead of relying on the usual Internet hyperbole and 4chan as your sources.

On 4chan is stated about Draigo what you have just said, that he is pawn to Chaos Gods. I think that he is trolling them. How long you need to understand taht I think about Draigo that way because I read the damn text myself? I also think that Space Wolf fluff is awesome, and that Ultramarines are awesome, while 4chan likes to insult them to the core.
And I think taht Chaos Gods are not gods at all - but 4 very powerful Daemons or creatures of the Warp who are addicted to our emotions. To me the Emperor is only true god of 40k universe.
Find me that on 4chan.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

Seriously? This fething thread again? Why in the hell did you think about posting this? Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

Again, that's giving Ward and GW quite a lot of credit, and requires a fair amount of reading between the lines.

Or, you could simply take it at face value: Ward wrote an unstoppable badass who carves his name into the hearts of Daemon Princes, and despite being trapped in the warp, still manages to destroy everything he touches while remaining completely pure. Dude destroys daemon-cities single-handedly.

Tragic character or badly-written Mary Sue? Personally, my money's on the latter. (Some) Black Library guys can do subtlety and nuance, but I've yet to see it from the studio folks. See: Canis Wolfborn.

Brother Coa wrote:On 4chan is stated about Draigo what you have just said, that he is pawn to Chaos Gods. I think that he is trolling them. How long you need to understand taht I think about Draigo that way because I read the damn text myself? I also think that Space Wolf fluff is awesome, and that Ultramarines are awesome, while 4chan likes to insult them to the core.
And I think taht Chaos Gods are not gods at all - but 4 very powerful Daemons or creatures of the Warp who are addicted to our emotions. To me the Emperor is only true god of 40k universe.
Find me that on 4chan.

You're not going to find anything I said about Draigo on 4chan. Just that he's a Mary-sue, but 1d4chan is far from a repository of reason and logic.
That last part is fan-mad conjecture and contradictory of the fluff. The Chaos Gods are not just 4 daemons, they're much more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

Seriously? This fething thread again? Why in the hell did you think about posting this? Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.

Again, that's giving Ward and GW quite a lot of credit, and requires a fair amount of reading between the lines.

Or, you could simply take it at face value: Ward wrote an unstoppable badass who carves his name into the hearts of Daemon Princes, and despite being trapped in the warp, still manages to destroy everything he touches while remaining completely pure. Dude destroys daemon-cities single-handedly.

Tragic character or badly-written Mary Sue? Personally, my money's on the latter. (Some) Black Library guys can do subtlety and nuance, but I've yet to see it from the studio folks. See: Canis Wolfborn.

I'm gonna go with both. He's a badly-written tragic character. He's a badass, but his tragic side is the balancing point. It's simply that it's not written very well, so it doesn't come across at all.

iproxtaco wrote:The Chaos Gods are not just 4 daemons, they're much more.

Not to me...

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm gonna go with both. He's a badly-written tragic character. He's a badass, but his tragic side is the balancing point. It's simply that it's not written very well, so it doesn't come across at all.

I disagree simply because I don't believe the "tragedy" of being the most badass man in the Imperium, capable of taking on anything the warp can throw at him without breaking a sweat, is all that much of a balancing point.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Chaos Gods are not just 4 daemons, they're much more.

Not to me...

Exactly, fanboy conjecture, that contradicts the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm gonna go with both. He's a badly-written tragic character. He's a badass, but his tragic side is the balancing point. It's simply that it's not written very well, so it doesn't come across at all.

I disagree simply because I don't believe the "tragedy" of being the most badass man in the Imperium, capable of taking on anything the warp can throw at him without breaking a sweat, is all that much of a balancing point.

It's balanced by the fact that he's trapped in the Warp like a Daemon, returning only for sporadic trips, like a Daemon, and that anything he accomplishes is meaningless, because it is instantly re-made. That's the tragic side.

They made him the chuck norris of the WH40K universe

Viersche wrote:They made him the chuck norris of the WH40K universe

Ah, did you forget about Marbo? He is the true Chuck Norris of 40k

GreyHamster wrote:
As for his Warp adventures, it's a Sisyphean tale. He labours hard, slowly accomplishing much, but it all becomes undone with ease. While the writing is not super amazing, the concept is there. He is the greatest daemonslayer ever, racking up a tally of daemon after daemon, and it makes as much difference as taking a cup of water out of the ocean. Then dropping it. The ultimate futility of his exploits is a classic tragedy.

In case you dont remember the particulars and google is down for some reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

God punishes man to eternity of pointless existence.
Zues punishes Sisyphus to eternity rolling rock up hill.
M'kar punishes Draigo to eternity killing things that don't actually die.

Its not to much of a stretch to think that a writer might actually consider a theme when writing something. Even if it was not on purpose, it is still there. So, intentional or not, it is a form of literary tragedy.

Kanluwen wrote:
The fluff in the codices is fine.

Thats your definition of fine ?



Draigo isn't chuck norris. Big E is chuck.
Marbo ? is Sly...

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly, fanboy conjecture, that contradicts the fluff.

And fluff tends to get wrong in many times so it can be debated and tear down.
Chaos Gods are not gods, not really. Same as the Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The fluff in the codices is fine.

Thats your definition of fine ?

Next thing you will see is Grey Knights and Chaos Daemons fighting Necrons, together.

GreyHamster wrote:The thing is, Grey Knights are all consummate daemon hunters. The Grand Masters are the most experienced and proficient of the chapter and the Supreme Grand Master is first amongst them. They spend centuries learning and practicing every possible method of destroying daemons. This is the only thing Draigo ever actually does. He kills daemons. He does it very well, but would you expect the Chapter Master to be anything less? When he struck down Mortarion, he just finished fighting the LAST Master.

As for his Warp adventures, it's a Sisyphean tale. He labours hard, slowly accomplishing much, but it all becomes undone with ease. While the writing is not super amazing, the concept is there. He is the greatest daemonslayer ever, racking up a tally of daemon after daemon, and it makes as much difference as taking a cup of water out of the ocean. Then dropping it. The ultimate futility of his exploits is a classic tragedy.

I understand what Mud Wart was trying to do, he just took it WAY too literally. WAAAY too literally. 5 squads of GK beating Mortarion in a reality where his powers are enhanced even more would have been too much for me, but a pair of GK? Silly.

The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Commissar Typhus wrote:

Viersche wrote:They made him the chuck norris of the WH40K universe

Ah, did you forget about Marbo? He is the true Chuck Norris of 40k

uh...he's the rambo...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Knowing Ward's unsubtle writing, this most likely would have been mentioned (I am not MW tho, so Obviously I cannot say for sure)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

Khorne should just get violated by Slaanesh. Then the whole world could be better.

forruner_mercy wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

Khorne should just get violated by Slaanesh. Then the whole world could be better.

Or Khorne could just lop off Slaanesh' genitals.

Again, suggesting that Draigo's a Sisyphean character is...well, let me put it this way: you guys really think Ward went from writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Ultramarines to writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Necron Pals to writing...a subtle, tragic character in Codex: Sister Slayers?

I mean, I'd like to think the guy took a creative writing class or two, too, but Draigo's written as a straight-up badass who cannot be defeated by Chaos, not a tragic hero who would seem like he sprang from the mind of Shakespeare by comparison to what Ward usually gives us.

Seaward wrote:Again, suggesting that Draigo's a Sisyphean character is...well, let me put it this way: you guys really think Ward went from writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Ultramarines to writing the eye-rollingly over-the-top fluff in Codex: Necron Pals to writing...a subtle, tragic character in Codex: Sister Slayers?

I mean, I'd like to think the guy took a creative writing class or two, too, but Draigo's written as a straight-up badass who cannot be defeated by Chaos, not a tragic hero who would seem like he sprang from the mind of Shakespeare by comparison to what Ward usually gives us.

I didn't notice too much OOT in the Nilla Wafer Marine codex (other than Calgar beating an avatar in Fisticuffs, but every codex has one guy that just rocks everything in the face)

And now the only thing that bugs me about the Blood Angels codex (now that I've read it) is that the Necron Lord could control time and space, yet Dante was on par with him.

IMO, even after reading the Grey knights Codex (instead of listening to those that quaff Haterade) Nothing really bothers me about it. Draigo does seem like a Clumsy shot at a Sisyphean Character instead of the bane of all chaos, whom beat Khorne at Arm wresting, finished the Times Crossword puzzle before Tzeentch, Convinced Slaanesh to take a Vow of Chastity, and drowned Nurgle in a Bathtub.

To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.


There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

Or Farsight who is still alive (maybe).

Or Shadowsun who blew up a statue of Farsight.

OR Aun'Va who talks about doing all this awesome stuff.

Damn Mary Sues.

Who do the Tau think they are with all these super over the top awesome leaders.

Kanluwen wrote:The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Afraid not.

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

Draigo had no help in smashing through Mortarion's bodyguards and using Mortarion's heart as a diary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:To the haters.

What about the boy genius known as Creed who rose from the ashes to become Cadia's greatest military mastermind? Nope, he's not a Mary Tzu.

Creed is a brilliant strategist and tactician, but that's basically it, and the fandom exagerrates the extent of his genius as well.

Or Marbo, who is alleged to hunt Lictors? Nah, that's not OTT.

You forgot to mention Harker, who strangles Raveners with his massive biceps. Marbo is stupid and boring, yes.

Or Marneus Calgar who is feared and respected throughout the entire Imperium?

The same Marneus Calgar who was dismembered by the Swarmlord.

Or Yarrick, the only 'umie respected by Orks?

The one who lost to Ghazghkull every time they've fought.

Or Drazhar, who effortlessly slaughtered dozens of Incubi and their masters, warriors who easily rank amongst the most skilled in the galaxy?

Considering he's possibly a Phoenix Lord, that's not incredibly impressive, when stacked up to other Phoenix Lords or especially Draigo.

Or Lelith Hesperax, who toys with her enemies before mercilessly slaughtering them? She is untouchable. An avatar of death.

She killed a few Marines, before making a retreat. Whoa.

There are multiple OTT/"Mary Sue" esque characters in 40k. Draigo is perhaps the least of them. If people could actually read and understand that what he accomplishes is meaningless they might understand that.

Heck, he can't even lead his own bloody Chapter.

Considering he has the majority of Chaos Daemons scared to even go near him and nothing inside the Warp seems to so much as slow him down, he's certainly the biggest Godmode Sue in the setting.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The fight with Mortarion was going on in the midst of a larger battle.

For all we know, there could have been other Grey Knights focusing their powers on countering Mortarion's which allowed Draigo to go in for the showdown.

Afraid not.

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

Draigo had no help in smashing through Mortarion's bodyguards and using Mortarion's heart as a diary.

"The Battle of Kornovin" implies it's a much bigger thing. Unless you're really going to sit there and try to tell me that the Supreme Grand Master and the Grand Master just walk a beat all around the Imperium lookin' for Daemons.

Kanluwen wrote:"The Battle of Kornovin" implies it's a much bigger thing. Unless you're really going to sit there and try to tell me that the Supreme Grand Master and the Grand Master just walk a beat all around the Imperium lookin' for Daemons.

What are you implying?

The text makes it clear that Draigo did what he did alone and unaided, no, there was probably a battle around them, but Draigo still tore through Mortarion's bodyguards and bested Mortarion himself without any help from the other Grey Knights.

To assume otherwise is unfounded speculation.

CpatTom wrote:Or Farsight who is still alive (maybe).

Or Shadowsun who blew up a statue of Farsight.

OR Aun'Va who talks about doing all this awesome stuff.

Damn Mary Sues.

Who do the Tau think they are with all these super over the top awesome leaders.

Shadowsun is pretty OP, not because she destroyed the farsight statue, but because she fought a tyranid Hive fleet without losing a single ship.

The other Tau Codex characters, not so much. Farsight isn't much older than Shadowsun and Aun'va, while being the leader of the Tau, hasn't done anything (on record) that impressive other than talk the Tau into Ass kicking, Name taking mode.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"The Battle of Kornovin" implies it's a much bigger thing. Unless you're really going to sit there and try to tell me that the Supreme Grand Master and the Grand Master just walk a beat all around the Imperium lookin' for Daemons.

What are you implying?

The text makes it clear that Draigo did what he did alone and unaided, no, there was probably a battle around them, but Draigo still tore through Mortarion's bodyguards and bested Mortarion himself without any help from the other Grey Knights.

What bodyguards? What are we saying "isn't any help from the other Grey Knights"? For a very long time, the simple presence of Grey Knights has been enough to destabilize and weaken Daemons.

Mortarion may have been a Primarch, but guess what? He's a Daemon Primarch now.

To assume otherwise is unfounded speculation.

Just like it is to say that he did it completely by himself, stomping his way past Mortarion with ease and slaughtering every single one of Mortarion's unspecified bodyguards(Were they Nurglings? Plaguebearers? Great Unclean Ones? Or hell, maybe they were Death Guard who'd ascended to Daemonhood).
The simple fact that Mortarion was in realspace rather than the Warp makes him even more vulnerable, and considering the idiot was going up against a force of Grey Knights it reeks of the hubris he exhibited during his time as a Primarch.