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The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

No use in beating a dead horse. A lot of people, myself included, think that much of the fluff in Codex GKs is over the top. A lot do not. But this has been covered in many other threads already.If you really want to feel the hate, use the search function, as I'm sure this thread will be locked before too long.

^In similar news, the Squats have been eaten by Tyranids.^

Edited to make sarcasm more obvious.

English Assassin wrote:In similar news, the Squats have been eaten by Tyranids.

Thank god. They were such a horribly executed idea.

edit:700 posts!

Carving his predecessors name into Mortarion's heart or being so unstoppable the Daemons of the Warp avoid him is where the line was crossed.

I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Because Chaos Gods are toying with him. They diliberatelly let him go around the Warp and destroying everything they throw at him just to see him get sweat by destroying all that over and over and over...
At least, I would believe that if not for sentence:"just as Draigo coudn't kill Dark Gods, so Dark Gods couldn't force Draigo out of the Warp". That sentence ( at least for me ) turned around all situation. Now it looks like he is rampaging across Warp and Chaos Gods are actually trying to findin a way to get rid of him ( since they can't kill him for some reason ).
I personally believe that Emperor himself is protecting Draigo and keeps him into the Warp to Troll Chaos Gods
For the real reason why: send e-mail to Matt Ward. As dor the people liking this, some people like the fact that codex Space Marines is full of ultramarine background, that Grey Knights need to turn Sisters into armorr paint to remain incorruptible, that Blood Angel and Necron alliance is a good thing, that Mephiston tear trough entire Tyranid force alone is logical, that Grey Knights call Orbital Bombardments on themselves and then peacefully walk away is actually cool.... everybody have their own opinions and likes...

Meh, Draigo and the Grey Knight codex doesn't really strike me as any more hackneyed and cliché then the rest of WH40K and WHFB. The whole thing is over the top Mary Sue.

Brother Coa wrote:Because Chaos Gods are toying with him. They diliberatelly let him go around the Warp and destroying everything they throw at him just to see him get sweat by destroying all that over and over and over...
At least, I would believe that if not for sentence:"just as Draigo coudn't kill Dark Gods, so Dark Gods couldn't force Draigo out of the Warp". That sentence ( at least for me ) turned around all situation. Now it looks like he is rampaging across Warp and Chaos Gods are actually trying to findin a way to get rid of him ( since they can't kill him for some reason ).
I personally believe that Emperor himself is protecting Draigo and keeps him into the Warp to Troll Chaos Gods
For the real reason why: send e-mail to Matt Ward. As dor the people liking this, some people like the fact that codex Space Marines is full of ultramarine background, that Grey Knights need to turn Sisters into armorr paint to remain incorruptible, that Blood Angel and Necron alliance is a good thing, that Mephiston tear trough entire Tyranid force alone is logical, that Grey Knights call Orbital Bombardments on themselves and then peacefully walk away is actually cool.... everybody have their own opinions and likes...

Draigo. The ultimate troll of 40k

I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

The fluff behind Draigo doesn't convey any sense of tragedy. That may of been Ward's intention, but because the man can't write worth a damn he could not adequately put it to paper.

It's not the internet. It's that bad.

Void__Dragon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

The fluff behind Draigo doesn't convey any sense of tragedy.

Or maybe people just don't look beneath the surface of the story and bother thinking about it?

Harriticus wrote:the Daemons of the Warp avoid him is where the line was crossed.

...Really? You must not be aware that Daemons, period, go out of their way to avoid Grey Knights.

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for likening him to G.I. Joe.

/rant

Any opinions?

I'm not just fine with it, I actively like it a lot.


He accomplishes all these great deeds in the realm of chaos, but nothing he does ever matters and nothing he does lasts longer than a day. He can never fight against things that threaten the Imperium. He can never do anything.

He's an analogy for the Imperium. Full of heroic deeds, super strong and great. You think that is dumb, because you can't understand that nothing he ever does is significant. He wrecks stuff in the warp, and it doesn't matter. It's all the same the next day. It's exactly like how the Imperium is faring, heroically holding the line while at the end of the day evil still grows stronger and humanity fades ever so slightly more away.

ph34r wrote:I'm not just fine with it, I actively like it a lot.


He accomplishes all these great deeds in the realm of chaos, but nothing he does ever matters and nothing he does lasts longer than a day. He can never fight against things that threaten the Imperium. He can never do anything.

He's an analogy for the Imperium. Full of heroic deeds, super strong and great. You think that is dumb, because you can't understand that nothing he ever does is significant. He wrecks stuff in the warp, and it doesn't matter. It's all the same the next day. It's exactly like how the Imperium is faring, heroically holding the line while at the end of the day evil still grows stronger and humanity fades ever so slightly more away.

I agree with ph34r.


Also, the Devil called, he's begging for some blankets. Seems there's some sort of frost damage going on at his place...

People need to stop complaining about ward in general, if they don't like it, don't read it. no need to internet rant over it...

People need to stop complaining about things they can't fix in a wargaming hobby. Helk he's stats aren't horribly powerful that it makes abaddon look bad.
Helk it just makes him that much of a target. Hey guys lets fire our lascannons and melta weapons at him for lulz! 1st turn draigo is dead.....
Helk a plasma cannon could kill him. I have faced him before and he died the first turn because I decided to make his force split up. Face it just out smart the player and you will win.

Draigo in lore is bad. But he is basically the Light Side version of Abaddon. Lets see Warmaster of Chaos vs The Great Grand Master.... Hmmm.same amount letters too.

I don't hate it. I'm not enthralled with it either. Then again, if he had won, got sucked into the warp and was promptly killed he wouldn't be quite as heroic, or "tragic", or really all that impressive to read about. The whole Grey Knights Chapter sets the bar pretty high in order to actually be impressive. I appreciate the effort at creating a tragic hero so full of purpose, fighting on, despite the fact he never really accomplishes anything.

I might have a problem if the he rampaged all over Khorne, defeated Tzeentch in chess, developed a Nurgle vaccine, and Slaanesh to death, all the while on his way to firing up the defibrillator and reviving the Emperor's corpse.

That might be to much.

It is my most disliked part of the background.

My most disliked part of the background is the naming of Canis Wolfborn and the fact that my freaking Dark Angels Codex didn't have the Mortis Dreadnought(A PATTERN FOUND SOLELY IN THE POSSESSION OF THE UNFORGIVEN CHAPTERS) in it yet most Space Marine codices(and even the Grey Knights book) have them.

Yea draigo just seems like the overly cliched badass that people get tired of really quickly

The thing is, Grey Knights are all consummate daemon hunters. The Grand Masters are the most experienced and proficient of the chapter and the Supreme Grand Master is first amongst them. They spend centuries learning and practicing every possible method of destroying daemons. This is the only thing Draigo ever actually does. He kills daemons. He does it very well, but would you expect the Chapter Master to be anything less? When he struck down Mortarion, he just finished fighting the LAST Master.

As for his Warp adventures, it's a Sisyphean tale. He labours hard, slowly accomplishing much, but it all becomes undone with ease. While the writing is not super amazing, the concept is there. He is the greatest daemonslayer ever, racking up a tally of daemon after daemon, and it makes as much difference as taking a cup of water out of the ocean. Then dropping it. The ultimate futility of his exploits is a classic tragedy.

Brother Coa wrote:
I personally believe that Emperor himself is protecting Draigo and keeps him into the Warp to Troll Chaos Gods

That is the best explanation of Draigo fluff that I've ever read. I love the idea of the Emprah keeping Draigo going in the warp just to annoy the chaos gods

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm gonna say the same thing I always say these days: his fluff is tragic. It's the very essence of the Grey Knight's position: they're fighting Chaos, but nothing they do really matters. That's not bad fluff at all. Sadly the internet has a tendency to make people go all Khorne on stuff.

You give GW far too much credit. They're nowhere near that deep.

Farseer Petriel wrote:

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

Actually Eldrad is nothing but a shiny rock now. He sacrificed himself to take down a black fortress. If he was the perfect farseer he would have just mind-blown it.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

Actually Eldrad is nothing but a shiny rock now. He sacrificed himself to take down a black fortress. If he was the perfect farseer he would have just mind-blown it.

Then he has perfect moral qualities so he will resurrect like Gandalf after being nearly killed by Balrog.

ph34r wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The sheer Mary-sue-ness of his fluff has just irked me since it started. I know there are other people who dislike it, but how many people are fine with it? And to what extent? I mean, I know that occasionally someone is just able to pull a move that is mindbogglingly epic/heroic (see: Leo Major for example) but to do rediculous things like that time after time? Forgive me for

I'm not just fine with it, I actively like it a lot.


He accomplishes all these great deeds in the realm of chaos, but nothing he does ever matters and nothing he does lasts longer than a day. He can never fight against things that threaten the Imperium. He can never do anything.

He's an analogy for the Imperium. Full of heroic deeds, super strong and great. You think that is dumb, because you can't understand that nothing he ever does is significant. He wrecks stuff in the warp, and it doesn't matter. It's all the same the next day. It's exactly like how the Imperium is faring, heroically holding the line while at the end of the day evil still grows stronger and humanity fades ever so slightly more away.

Yes, but the fact draigo did all that stuff in the first place is what annoys people


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farseer Petriel wrote:

Remulus wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:I think many of WH40k characters suffer from mary-sue-ness as they represent the most archetypical portrait of the racial leaders. Marneus Calgar is a strong-willed Chapter Master, Creed is a tactical genius (indeed!), Eldrad Ulthran is a wise Farseer, and Kharn is the example of mad Khorne berzerker taken from Imperial Bureau of Weights and Measures. If you want to see more interesting and realistic characters, play the roleplaying game or read BL novels (not about the Ultramarines, but the Eisenhorn series).

Kharn... A Mary sue? What are you saying?

Also, a mary sue is a character who is perfect... Just because a character is good at something.... Does not make them a mary sue

Kharn is perfectly bad... And others given are perfect at their duties. Marneus is a perfect Chapter Master, Creed is a perfect IG commander and Eldrad is a perfect Eldar Farseer. Maybe they all have their personal shortcomings but GW don't mention them, so these characters seem one-sided and perfect at all (unlike Eisenhorn who is definitely not a paladin of the Emperor or even badass Codex Catachans such as Straken or Guardsman Marbo). That's what I mean.

Bein "perfectly bad" doesn't count as a mary sue. We count mary sue in our own terms of what is what. Bein bad, really attomatically makes you not a mary sue...

Sure in the codex entry for these characters, they dont mention anythin' bad, but, thats because it's their own entry. If there is one character khorne beserker out of 100,000 i don't really mind if it talks up about him.