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Asuron wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Asuron wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.

You're trolling. Please tell me you're trolling. Grey Knights don't gain advantages when fighitng Daemons? Lolwut? They have the equipment, the training, and the skills. Their souls are literally anathema to them. They absolutely gain an advantage over Daemons.

The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict

They don't contradict. Grey Knights don't purge all of their emotions, that's idiotic, quite simply. They're psycho conditioned to be able to control themselves, their souls are painful to Daemons, that's why they aren't affected. Their copious amounts of anti-Daemon wards and runes implanted into their amour and their bodies help.

Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them.
Things don't work like that in this universe.

Yes, it is like that.

Where on earth are you pulling this from? Their souls are anathema to them? The new codex states they are powerful accomplished psykers and that makes them the equivalent of such. They are not nulls, the only thing they have is a grim determination and duty towards the Emperor and apparentlly use psychic abilities to give them protection in the new stuff .

"A Grey Knight's psychic presence is anathema to the creatures of the Warp" - Page 7
Yes, that's right, their very presence hurt their chosen enemy.

Having the training, equipment and skills does not suddenly make you able to look at daemons and one shot them, it means your prepared and are able to fight them effectively. That is all
I do not suddenly have the ability to look at Elephants and kill them instantaneously just because I have the equipment, skills and knowledge on how to hunt them.
Same principle applies here

Not one shot them. Fight them effectively? Absolutely. A Grey Knight's experience, skills, equipment, and training, give them advantages over Daemons. They're stupidly good at fighting them. If you had the skills, equipment and knowledge to hunt Elephants then yes, you would have advantages over the Elephant.

Also I don't understand how its idiotic to purge yourself of emotions when fighting Chaos, considering Chaos thrives off and manipulates these emotions?
I was always under the impression that their true resistance came from pure determination, selfless and utter belief in the Emperor and sternest discipline possible brought on by a harsh training regmine. Why would people with this kind of training ever take the time to carve a name into a daemons heart, stick a daemon head mantle on the wall for boasting purposes or feel sadness to the point where you bring back comrades from the dead.

Purging yourself of emotions is idiotic. Determination and faith are both weapons in the Grey Knight's arsenal, even you say that, so why take those weapons away? A regular Space Marine has the same qualities, yet there are plenty of Chaos Marines. The carving of a name onto a Daemons heart is stupid, no arguments there.

Was all in the old background, must've missed the part in the new background where suddenly immunity to Chaos comes from magic Hocus Pocus nonsense, instead of intense discipline. My bad
All justifiable now right

You must have skimmed the page. A great deal of discipline is required from an aspirant, it's key to their survival.

Seaward wrote:
Draigo can take on primarchs;

Grey Knights have been killing primarchs since literally their first appearance (first battle of Armageddon: Angron).

Learn your 40k history.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Draigo can take on primarchs;

Grey Knights have been killing primarchs since literally their first appearance (first battle of Armageddon: Angron).

Learn your 40k history.

That was a hundred Terminators, not one dude.

If you want to make the claim that Draigo's as good as or better than any hundred other Grey Knights, go right ahead.

You can crack wise once you're actually right.

Seaward wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Draigo can take on primarchs;

Grey Knights have been killing primarchs since literally their first appearance (first battle of Armageddon: Angron).

Learn your 40k history.

That was a hundred Terminators, not one dude.

If you want to make the claim that Draigo's as good as or better than any hundred other Grey Knights, go right ahead.

You can crack wise once you're actually right.

Certainly not. But those 100 Grey Knight Terminators were fighting Angron, who is noted to be more combat oriented than Mortarion, and no less than 12 Bloodthirsters, and likely hordes of Daemonic minions and Chaos Space Marines. And this was while Angron was rested, and not after he had just killed 100 other Grey Knights.

iproxtaco wrote:
Certainly not. But those 100 Grey Knight Terminators were fighting Angron, who is noted to be more combat oriented than Mortarion, and no less than 12 Bloodthirsters, and likely hordes of Daemonic minions and Chaos Space Marines. And this was while Angron was rested, and not after he had just killed 100 other Grey Knights.

Let's also not forget that Logan Grimnar, his Great Company, and literally every other Imperial asset on Armageddon were all committed to that particular fight as well.

I love this, "combat oriented" business, by the way. Which Primarchs, pray tell, do you think were pansies in a dust-up? Out of the twenty created from the Emperor's own genes to conquer the galaxy, which ones didn't know how to hold a power sword? They're all pretty good at what they do. Lorgar, who was considered the "weakest" at the time, had zero difficulty and expended no apparent effort beating hundreds of Space Marines to death at the Drop Site Massacre.

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Certainly not. But those 100 Grey Knight Terminators were fighting Angron, who is noted to be more combat oriented than Mortarion, and no less than 12 Bloodthirsters, and likely hordes of Daemonic minions and Chaos Space Marines. And this was while Angron was rested, and not after he had just killed 100 other Grey Knights.

Let's also not forget that Logan Grimnar, his Great Company, and literally every other Imperial asset on Armageddon were all committed to that particular fight as well.

Although they weren't fighting Angron and his pose. The Grey Knights fought alone, whilst the Daemons and Chaos Marines likely had no qualms who they killed.

I love this, "combat oriented" business, by the way. Which Primarchs, pray tell, do you think were pansies in a dust-up? Out of the twenty created from the Emperor's own genes to conquer the galaxy, which ones didn't know how to hold a power sword? They're all pretty good at what they do. Lorgar, who was considered the "weakest" at the time, had zero difficulty and expended no apparent effort beating hundreds of Space Marines to death at the Drop Site Massacre.

They all had their strong points. Lorgar was a preacher, and a scholar, Magnus had his psychic powers, Guilliman was a politician and tactician. Angron was the combat oriented Primarch. Wading into battle with a pair of axes was what he did best out of them all.

iproxtaco wrote:
They all had their strong points. Lorgar was a preacher, and a scholar, Magnus had his psychic powers, Guilliman was a politician and tactician. Angron was the combat oriented Primarch. Wading into battle with a pair of axes was what he did best out of them all.

Michael Jordan's probably the best to ever play the game, but that doesn't mean Kobe Bryant's easy to beat. Individual mortals have never stood even the whisper of a chance at taking on a Primarch alone - until Draigo. If you believe the gap between Angron's combat ability and Mortarion's is about 99 Terminators, so be it. I think it's as ludicrous as five Guardsmen taking down Terminators with nothing more than bubble gum and moxy, but even Abnett has his off days.

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
They all had their strong points. Lorgar was a preacher, and a scholar, Magnus had his psychic powers, Guilliman was a politician and tactician. Angron was the combat oriented Primarch. Wading into battle with a pair of axes was what he did best out of them all.

Michael Jordan's probably the best to ever play the game, but that doesn't mean Kobe Bryant's easy to beat. Individual mortals have never stood even the whisper of a chance at taking on a Primarch alone - until Draigo. If you believe the gap between Angron's combat ability and Mortarion's is about 99 Terminators, so be it. I think it's as ludicrous as five Guardsmen taking down Terminators with nothing more than bubble gum and moxy, but even Abnett has his off days.

You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.

iproxtaco wrote:You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.

Where is this "weakened" gak coming from?

Nowhere in the Grey Knights codex is Mortarion even implied to be at anything but full strength. Sure, you can assume killing the previous Supreme Grand Master weakened Mortarion, it is still just that: An assumption.

And it not specifying how "beaten and bloody" Draigo was is another flaw, since it gives the impression he wasn't.

That said, I don't mind Draigo beating Mortarion in principle, honestly. Ka'Bhanda, who fought and even bested Sanguinius once, has been beaten by mortals for instance. An'ggrath was also banished by an Inquisitor Lord when they fought. So it is possibly for mortals to fight these very powerful beings in single combat, if the mortal is very exceptional, and generally they are also part of the Ordo Malleus, who specialise in fighting Daemons.

I do think that Mortarion's banishment at the hands of Draigo could have been written to make his loss seem more dignified though.

iproxtaco wrote:
You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless.

Hi, Pot. My name's Kettle.

Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly,

He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch

Noted where? I'd love a fluff citation, but I doubt you can provide one.

Incidentally, read that passage in Draigo's fluff again. There is absolutely zero mention of Mortarion being weakened. You're assuming he is, unless you can prove otherwise beyond mere conjecture.

in a surprise attack

I'm fairly certain this took place in the middle of a battle. The attack couldn't have been all that surprising.

that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.

It doesn't detail anything at all. It's a single sentence. You're jumping to a lot of conclusions, same as everybody else.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.

Where is this "weakened" gak coming from?

Nowhere in the Grey Knights codex is Mortarion even implied to be at anything but full strength. Sure, you can assume killing the previous Supreme Grand Master weakened Mortarion, it is still just that: An assumption.

Not everything has to be written word for word in black and white. Things can be derived and reasoned. Mortarion had just face and overcome the previous Supreme Grand Master, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume Mortarion hadn't just arrived from relaxed weekend getaway.

And it not specifying how "beaten and bloody" Draigo was is another flaw, since it gives the impression he wasn't.

It says "ultimately". Whatever happened after Draigo attacked, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Mortarion fought back.

That said, I don't mind Draigo beating Mortarion in principle, honestly. Ka'Bhanda, who fought and even bested Sanguinius once, has been beaten by mortals for instance. An'ggrath was also banished by an Inquisitor Lord when they fought. So it is possibly for mortals to fight these very powerful beings in single combat, if the mortal is very exceptional, and generally they are also part of the Ordo Malleus, who specialise in fighting Daemons.

I do think that Mortarion's banishment at the hands of Draigo could have been written to make his loss seem more dignified though.

Thawn also defeats Ku'gath. He gets eaten and then tears his way out of the the Great Unclean One's stomach.
The last part I agree with. Mat Ward is consistently bad with his writing style.

Seaward wrote:That was a hundred Terminators, not one dude.

If you want to make the claim that Draigo's as good as or better than any hundred other Grey Knights, go right ahead.

You can crack wise once you're actually right.

Actually you are wrong. 99 terminators fought against the 12 bloodthirsters and numberless lesser daemons.

1 Brother-Captain fought Angron, and beat him


Draigo is, logically, better than 1 Brother-Captain.

YOU can crack wise once you're actually right. Go sit in the corner, your lack of knowledge combined with inappropriately high confidence is embarrassing.

1 Bro-Cap beat the strongest Daemon Primarch. 1 Supreme Grandmaster (just for you because you might not have elementary school math skills, that is two whole power levels above a BroCap.) beat one of the weaker Daemon Primarchs, who had just killed another Supreme Grandmaster.

And just in case you forgot, the Daemon Primarchs are not even the strongest Daemons that the GK have to fight, and beat. Angron is weaker than the strongest Bloodthirster, An'ggrath, and Mortarion is weaker than the strongest Nurglite daemon.

ph34r wrote:

Seaward wrote:That was a hundred Terminators, not one dude.

If you want to make the claim that Draigo's as good as or better than any hundred other Grey Knights, go right ahead.

You can crack wise once you're actually right.

Actually you are wrong. 99 terminators fought against the 12 bloodthirsters and numberless lesser daemons.

1 Brother-Captain fought Angron, and beat him


Draigo is, logically, better than 1 Brother-Captain.

YOU can crack wise once you're actually right. Go sit in the corner, your lack of knowledge combined with inappropriately high confidence is embarrassing.

That would be a great response if it were true.

Incidentally, I think getting angry about a game of spacemens is the embarrassing part here. But crusade on, rage warrior.

iproxtaco wrote:Not everything has to be written word for word in black and white. Things can be derived and reasoned. Mortarion had just face and overcome the previous Supreme Grand Master, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume Mortarion hadn't just arrived from relaxed weekend getaway.

Sure, you can reason that's what happened, and it would make the passage more bearable, but "reason" and "Draigo" are words that don't go together. You are far more optimistic than me regarding this, and all the more power to you for it.

It says "ultimately". Whatever happened after Draigo attacked, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Mortarion fought back.

It says ultimately Mortarion escaped, yes.

Thawn also defeats Ku'gath. He gets eaten and then tears his way out of the the Great Unclean One's stomach.
The last part I agree with. Mat Ward is consistently bad with his writing style.

Well with Thawn I assumed that he managed that because of his apparent inability to permanently die.

Seaward wrote:That would be a great response if it were true.

Incidentally, I think getting angry about a game of spacemens is the embarrassing part here. But crusade on, rage warrior.

It is true. I literally own the battle for armageddon art book in real life.

You haven't even read the story in question, and are just talking out your ass.

I also like the fact that you think that I am angry. What reason do I have to be angry, when it entertains me to see you try and fail again and again?

ph34r wrote:1 Bro-Cap beat the strongest Daemon Primarch.

He's not the strongest Daemon Primarch.

And just in case you forgot, the Daemon Primarchs are not even the strongest Daemons that the GK have to fight, and beat. Angron is weaker than the strongest Bloodthirster, An'ggrath, and Mortarion is weaker than the strongest Nurglite daemon.

Ka'Bhanda is the strongest Bloodthirster as of right now, who Sanguinius broke over his knee. Angron is described as the most favored servant of Khorne, and beyond that Corax isn't sure Sanguinius could beat Angron.

Void__Dragon wrote:

ph34r wrote:1 Bro-Cap beat the strongest Daemon Primarch.

He's not the strongest Daemon Primarch.

And just in case you forgot, the Daemon Primarchs are not even the strongest Daemons that the GK have to fight, and beat. Angron is weaker than the strongest Bloodthirster, An'ggrath, and Mortarion is weaker than the strongest Nurglite daemon.

Ka'Bhanda is the strongest Bloodthirster as of right now, who Sanguinius broke over his knee. Angron is described as the most favored servant of Khorne, and beyond that Corax isn't sure Sanguinius could beat Angron.

Well apparently both Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath are both strongest, because the full title is "An'ggrath the Unbound, the Guardian of the Throne of Skulls, Most Favoured of Khorne, Lord of Bloodthirsters and the Deathbringer is the mightiest Bloodthirster yet summoned from the warp, and Khorne's most favoured servant." Perhaps Ka'Bhanda is slightly stronger, but the point is unchanged.

It is irrelevant whether or not a Primarch could beat the greatest Daemon Prince. As evidenced in every GK story that involves combat with one of the many strongest Daemons, the Grey Knights are much more capable of dealing with them than even the primarchs were back in the day.

Hell, Skarbrand, one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, was killed by Dante. Dante isn't a primarch, a GK, or even a psyker or chapter master. He just chopped Skarbrand in half and banished him.

ph34r wrote:Well apparently both Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath are both strongest, because the full title is "An'ggrath the Unbound, the Guardian of the Throne of Skulls, Most Favoured of Khorne, Lord of Bloodthirsters and the Deathbringer is the mightiest Bloodthirster yet summoned from the warp, and Khorne's most favoured servant." Perhaps Ka'Bhanda is slightly stronger, but the point is unchanged.

It's pretty strange. Much of what was said about An'ggrath, is now said about Ka'Bhanda (Could it be possible that Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath are different names for the same Bloodthirster?)

It is irrelevant whether or not a Primarch could beat the greatest Daemon Prince. As evidenced in every GK story that involves combat with one of the many strongest Daemons, the Grey Knights are much more capable of dealing with them than even the primarchs were back in the day

Hell, Skarbrand, one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, was killed by Dante. Dante isn't a primarch, a GK, or even a psyker or chapter master. He just chopped Skarbrand in half and banished him.

I don't really have a problem with Mortarion being banished by a Grey Knight, as I said.

It's mostly just the way it was written, it makes Mortarion come off roughly as threatening as Worf.

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't really have a problem with Mortarion being banished by a Grey Knight, as I said.

It's mostly just the way it was written, it makes Mortarion come off roughly as threatening as Worf.

That is reasonable to say. Mat Ward's writing style is atrocious.

Personally, I've always taken the name carving business to be a poncy way of saying he did some fancy banishing. It certainly seems to fit the bill, and its not like this hasn't been done before.

And in my opinion (OPINION), the fight, and Draigo's victory by extension, was solid, but the execution was lacking.

If it had said something along the lines of Mortarion allowing all this to unfold, instead of just getting his ass kicked, it would actually be alright. Generally, I think they left out the part where Mortarion fades away, laughing maniacally at Draigo's failing efforts.

Randomonioum wrote:Personally, I've always taken the name carving business to be a poncy way of saying he did some fancy banishing. It certainly seems to fit the bill, and its not like this hasn't been done before.

It was. When it comes to the daemonic, names are power. Carving the name of the freshly slain Supreme Grand Master onto Mortarion's heart was likely a much better use of the opportunity than Draigo sticking his sword through it. The section mentions that it was a long time before Mortarion was able to re-enter realspace again, even if its not clear whether or not he was banished during the battle.

Randomonioum wrote:And in my opinion (OPINION), the fight, and Draigo's victory by extension, was solid, but the execution was lacking.

That's pretty much Ward's hallmark. Lots of basically good, even great ideas undermined by clumsy writing.

ph34r wrote:

Seaward wrote:That would be a great response if it were true.

Incidentally, I think getting angry about a game of spacemens is the embarrassing part here. But crusade on, rage warrior.

It is true. I literally own the battle for armageddon art book in real life...

The Imperialis Armageddon also has detail on what happened during this fight. You can find it here.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:If it had said something along the lines of Mortarion allowing all this to unfold, instead of just getting his ass kicked, it would actually be alright. Generally, I think they left out the part where Mortarion fades away, laughing maniacally at Draigo's failing efforts.

And that makes the Grey Knights look like Worf instead, in their own codex to boot.

What really should have happened was to just give Draigo help. Honestly, would anybody have complained (Outside of the dedicated 4chan whiners) if Draigo didn't fight Mortarion 1 on 1, but instead lead a squad of his Terminators in retaliation? It makes zero sense that the leader of an organization as cold and merciless as the Grey Knights would have a "duel" with a guy as feared as Mortarion. You want to assure victory in that sort of instance; Aurelian had his brothers surround him when he faltered against Angron.

Greyish wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Seaward wrote:That would be a great response if it were true.

Incidentally, I think getting angry about a game of spacemens is the embarrassing part here. But crusade on, rage warrior.

It is true. I literally own the battle for armageddon art book in real life...

The Imperialis Armageddon also has detail on what happened during this fight. You can find it here.

Indeed. That's what I've been going off of; one GK Captain didn't banish Angron. Every surviving GK doing some psychic communion BS did.

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote: Going back to the fly image, would you hide from one just because it buzzed a bit?

I'd give serious thought to killing it if it burned my house down seven or eight times. Yeah, insurance keeps slapping it right back up, but it's still fething annoying.

I dunno... I think if a fly burned my house down seven or eight times I would not even attempt to kill it for fear of angering it. I would give it biggest pile of nice tasty feces I could find to hopefully distract it long enough for me to escape. Then I would move far far away and pray that Draigofly never found me.

iproxtaco wrote:The comparison is still flawed. Draigo is a Grey Knight, Mortarion is a Daemon, so, Draigo gains all of his advantages over Mortarion, a Daemon. Kharn is a Space Marine, The Khan is a Primarch, so, Kharn gains no advantages against a Primarch like Draigo would over a Daemon.

Primarchs still bleed don't they? If it bleeds then Kharn can kill it.

iproxtaco wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You're inventing certain little things and ignoring others, making responding again near pointless. Draigo is so far an above your average mortal it's silly, whilst being the best person in the entire Imperium at fighting Daemons. He defeats an already weakened and noted to be average Daemon Primarch in a surprise attack that doesn't detail how beaten and bloody he was after he carves the name. Yes, Mortarion "ultimately" escapes, meaning there was a battle AFTER he was struck down.

Where is this "weakened" gak coming from?

Nowhere in the Grey Knights codex is Mortarion even implied to be at anything but full strength. Sure, you can assume killing the previous Supreme Grand Master weakened Mortarion, it is still just that: An assumption.

Not everything has to be written word for word in black and white. Things can be derived and reasoned. Mortarion had just face and overcome the previous Supreme Grand Master, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume Mortarion hadn't just arrived from relaxed weekend getaway.

And it not specifying how "beaten and bloody" Draigo was is another flaw, since it gives the impression he wasn't.

It says "ultimately". Whatever happened after Draigo attacked, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Mortarion fought back.

You think it's "reasonable" to assume that Mortarion fought back? It's "reasonable" to fight back against a guy who is so much stronger than you that he can singlehandedly kill your entire bodyguard then hold you down while he carves a rather long multisyllabic name into your heart? I think it's much more reasonable to run away as fast as you can and maybe go home and cry a little bit before offering a prayer of thanks to Papa Nurgle that you were able to escape at all. The "ultimately he escaped" part is to reassure the reader that Mortarion is in fact still alive and not permanently holocausted by Kaldor badass Draigo.

I see a lot of "Mortarion was weakened and not at full strength and it was a surprise attack!" and "the chaos gods could easily kill Draigo except they just don't feel like it because he's so insignificant, and also they're just toying with him anyway because they want to show him how tragic his existence so they just fix everything he breaks and this makes him sad - mission accomplished!" Folks seem to be inventing all kinds of justifications for Draigo's ridiculous exploits, but that's not how his fluff actually reads. You're bending over backwards to invent reasons why the fluff doesn't really mean what it actually says. What about the most obvious explanation - Draigo is able to do all this because he's really just that awesome. Really, what hasn't he been able to accomplish short of actually killing a chaos god? Anything?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote: what hasn't he been able to accomplish short of actually killing a chaos god?

Escaping the Warp.

Lasting victories.

Getting some decent fluff written up.

Brother Coa wrote:This dude is more powerful then Draigo:

Spoiler:

And you know who's stronger than that dude?