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Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.

There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.

Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.

There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.

Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.

Unless the daemon's soul is destroyed. Then it's really gone.

Also, Holocaust was available to GKTs, Brother-Captains, Grand Masters and Inquisitors. Hardly "everyone".

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.

There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.

Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.

Unless the daemon's soul is destroyed. Then it's really gone.

Also, Holocaust was available to GKTs, Brother-Captains, Grand Masters and Inquisitors. Hardly "everyone".

Lesser daemons don't have souls. They are simply nuggets of their respective gods power made physical. They can be reborn with the same personality as before should the god wish, but ultimately, they are avatars.

Seaward wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Bond villain.

The Ruinous Powers are, at heart, Bond villains with the powers of gods.

I dunno about that. They're winning, after all.

You're forgetting that Bond villains are winning for the majority of the movie.

It's only when they royally screw something simple up(like not having Bond beaten within an inch of his life) that they're finally defeated.

Chuck Norris wrote:Lets get this over with once and for all and have Tyranids eat his home world...

Titan? Never gonna happen.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.

There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.

Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.

Except the fluff for the power actually states that whatever is destroyed by Holocaust can never come back.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:A character's symbolism/hidden context is never an excuse for bad writing. Heck, 90% of all environmental films were complete drivel.

There also the fact that it IS possible to permanently harm Daemons. Remember the power Holocaust? The one that was accessible to everyone in Daemonhunters rather than being restricted to one unit? It perma kills anything.

Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.

Except the fluff for the power actually states that whatever is destroyed by Holocaust can never comeback.

I am talking about regular banishment.

Holocaust would mean that said lesser daemon's death would not result in the power used in it's creation returning to it's god.

Ah, okay.

Seaward wrote:Tzeentch especially plays a long game.

No, Tzeentch plays no game, long or short. He isn't trying to achieve any goals at all except keeping things moving.

Viersche wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.

The emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the emperor which is....basically himself?

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote: Going back to the fly image, would you hide from one just because it buzzed a bit?

I'd give serious thought to killing it if it burned my house down seven or eight times. Yeah, insurance keeps slapping it right back up, but it's still fething annoying.

You two made me laugh. it hurt when i did.

I might as well read this fluff to see if it is as bad as it seems. because knowing Wards reputation as being a worse writer than me; and seeing his accomplishments spread out on Lexicanum(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo#.TofcWXLHMrl) i am leaning towards the character being a fanboys wet dream of having his spank material rubber-stamped by the BL. Will hold official judgment though.

Coolyo294 wrote:

Chuck Norris wrote:Lets get this over with once and for all and have Tyranids eat his home world...

Titan? Never gonna happen.

Who knows Coolyo294, maybe Tyranids love Methane gas

Brother Coa wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

Chuck Norris wrote:Lets get this over with once and for all and have Tyranids eat his home world...

Titan? Never gonna happen.

Who knows Coolyo294, maybe Tyranids love Methane gas

They need it to make more complicated units =P

This dude is more powerful then Draigo:

What the hell is that supposed to be.

ph34r wrote:What the hell is that supposed to be.

That's me.

Brother Coa wrote:

ph34r wrote:What the hell is that supposed to be.

That's me.

Terribly inaccurate.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

ph34r wrote:What the hell is that supposed to be.

That's me.

Terribly inaccurate.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

ph34r wrote:What the hell is that supposed to be.

That's me.

Terribly inaccurate.

Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

iproxtaco wrote:
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch. These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine. Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.

iproxtaco wrote:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

Excellent phrased.

im2randomghgh wrote:Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.

Why do you think so? Deamons banished go back to the Warp, and have to wait a certain time. Deamons destoryed are just that. Gods do not create Deamons but use them. The Warp/the emotions create deamons/creatures of the warp including the gods themselve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dark Scipio wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

Excellent phrased.

im2randomghgh wrote:Well when a daemon dies/is banished, it becomes part of it's god again, and the god decides whether or not to create a daemon with the personality of the one that got destroyed, except for the big ones, and I mean the REALLY big ones.

Why do you think so? Deamons banished go back to the Warp, and have to wait a certain time. Deamons destoryed are just that. Gods do not create Deamons but use them. The Warp/the emotions create deamons/creatures of the warp including the gods themselve.

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch. These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine. Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.

But they have to fight. A Primarch doenst Auto.-win. Read Fulgrim against the Avatar. Custdodes even seem to be capable of fighting Primarchs. The best hero of the Grey Knights against a weakend Primarch is almost the same.

iproxtaco wrote:He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

There does seem to be a general feeling on these forums that a Primarch ascending to Daemonhood should just make him stronger without negative side affects.

Seaward wrote:It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch. These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine. Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.

It's possible that Mortarion wasn't at full strength, much like Magnus in 'Battle for the Fang'.

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

It reads that only if you leave the word "Primarch" out. Even the weakest of the Primarchs - arguably Lorgar - is still an incredible force to be reckoned with by any non-Primarch.
These guys are the sons of the Emperor, not just another Tactical Marine.

Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine, and this 'Primarch' is a Daemon, the very enemy that all Grey Knights, and particularly Draigo excel at fighting and killing.

Kharn stumbling across Jagtai Khan in the Warp and tattooing "Khorne rules!" on his chest would make about as much sense.

No, it wouldn't, since Kharn is not a Grey Knight and The Khan is not a Daemon. The comparison fails epically.

iproxtaco wrote:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.
The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict

Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them.
Things don't work like that in this universe.

Asuron wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.

You're trolling. Please tell me you're trolling. Grey Knights don't gain advantages when fighitng Daemons? Lolwut? They have the equipment, the training, and the skills. Their souls are literally anathema to them. They absolutely gain an advantage over Daemons.

The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict

They don't contradict. Grey Knights don't purge all of their emotions, that's idiotic, quite simply. They're psycho conditioned to be able to control themselves, their souls are painful to Daemons, that's why they aren't affected. Their copious amounts of anti-Daemon wards and runes implanted into their amour and their bodies help.

Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them.
Things don't work like that in this universe.

Yes, it is like that.

iproxtaco wrote:
Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine, and this 'Primarch' is a Daemon, the very enemy that all Grey Knights, and particularly Draigo excel at fighting and killing.

Do you consider the concept of Primarchs suspect? I'm not sure why it requires scare quotes.

Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine either, that's certainly true. But he's also not a Primarch. You also need to start recognizing the important difference between a true daemon - against whom stuff like knowing its true name would matter - and a Daemon Prince/Primarch.

No, it wouldn't, since Kharn is not a Grey Knight and The Khan is not a Daemon. The comparison fails epically.

I'm getting the strong impression that you believe Grey Knights simply can't be defeated. I'm starting to understand why you fight so hard to get Draigo accepted as anything more than atrocious fluff.

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine, and this 'Primarch' is a Daemon, the very enemy that all Grey Knights, and particularly Draigo excel at fighting and killing.

Do you consider the concept of Primarchs suspect? I'm not sure why it requires scare quotes.

Draigo isn't your average Tactical Marine either, that's certainly true. But he's also not a Primarch. You also need to start recognizing the important difference between a true daemon - against whom stuff like knowing its true name would matter - and a Daemon Prince/Primarch.

Still a Daemon, like it or not. Psy-bolts, sorcery, Nemesis Force Weapons, Aegis, etc. all still work on a Daemon Prince. You need to start recognizing that Draigo is the best of the best, and that defeating an already weakened Daemon Primarch, whilst significant, isn't fluff breakingly bad.

No, it wouldn't, since Kharn is not a Grey Knight and The Khan is not a Daemon. The comparison fails epically.

I'm getting the strong impression that you believe Grey Knights simply can't be defeated. I'm starting to understand why you fight so hard to get Draigo accepted as anything more than atrocious fluff.

The comparison is still flawed. Draigo is a Grey Knight, Mortarion is a Daemon, so, Draigo gains all of his advantages over Mortarion, a Daemon. Kharn is a Space Marine, The Khan is a Primarch, so, Kharn gains no advantages against a Primarch like Draigo would over a Daemon. By all means, if you refuse to see any sense anything I've said then back out and don't respond, won't bother me at all.

iproxtaco wrote:

Asuron wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Meh. Draigo would still mulch that guy into paste.

Draigo can take on primarchs; there's not much left alive that he couldn't mulch into paste.

Because he's a great character.

He can take on a weakened Primarch, one that was never noted to being particularly strong, that happened to be in the form that Draigo is particularly effective against. Seriously, get over it, he's the best Grey Knight, the pinnacle of the Imperium's Daemon hunting, and he beat a Daemon. Big whoop. The headline reads - "Galaxy's best Daemon Hunter beats Daemon".

Umm Iproxtaco, man, Grey knights fight Daemons and are the best of marines. Nowhere does it state that the Grey Knights get some magic advantage over daemons just because they fight them. The only thing they have is the best training, equipment and experience against daemons.

You're trolling. Please tell me you're trolling. Grey Knights don't gain advantages when fighitng Daemons? Lolwut? They have the equipment, the training, and the skills. Their souls are literally anathema to them. They absolutely gain an advantage over Daemons.

The only reason why they can do this and not be affected by Chaos is by purging all emotion, which things like carving a name into someones heart, sticking a daemons head on the wall and chanting to keep it in place for what can only be bragging rights, being so sorrowful about your fallen comrades that you create ghosts of them, all seem to contradict

They don't contradict. Grey Knights don't purge all of their emotions, that's idiotic, quite simply. They're psycho conditioned to be able to control themselves, their souls are painful to Daemons, that's why they aren't affected. Their copious amounts of anti-Daemon wards and runes implanted into their amour and their bodies help.

Its not like Pokemon where electric types gets an advantage over water types because they are inherently weak against them.
Things don't work like that in this universe.

Yes, it is like that.

Asuron wrote:stick a daemon head mantle on the wall for boasting purposes

Possibly to imprison it, since Grey Knights generally seem to struggle to do that.

feel sadness to the point where you bring back comrades from the dead.

Possibly because they are a brotherhood, afterall, and if the man believes it was his fault that they died, then he will be upset about it even if he tries to control his emotions.