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Kanluwen wrote:What bodyguards? What are we saying "isn't any help from the other Grey Knights"? For a very long time, the simple presence of Grey Knights has been enough to destabilize and weaken Daemons.

Mortarion may have been a Primarch, but guess what? He's a Daemon Primarch now.

If I had to assume what Mortarion's bodyguards were, I'd guess the Deathshroud, since they served as his bodyguard before Heresy as well. Beyond that, it doesn't say. Mortarion may be a Daemon Primarch, but you can't find any other instance of a Daemon Primarch being beaten by one guy. And it says a lot that Draigo beating Mortarion isn't actually his most impressive feat.

Angron required a hundred Grey Knight Terminators to banish him and his bodyguard. Mortarion required one guy.

Just like it is to say that he did it completely by himself, stomping his way past Mortarion with ease and slaughtering every single one of Mortarion's unspecified bodyguards(Were they Nurglings? Plaguebearers? Great Unclean Ones? Or hell, maybe they were Death Guard who'd ascended to Daemonhood).
The simple fact that Mortarion was in realspace rather than the Warp makes him even more vulnerable, and considering the idiot was going up against a force of Grey Knights it reeks of the hubris he exhibited during his time as a Primarch.

Only it says he did it completely by himself. If you can't admit that, you're in denial.

It's not like Mortarion was alone, he was probably leading an army. But that's largely beside the point, Mortarion was able to successfully and personally kill the Supreme Grand Master, but then got roflstomped by Draigo. And once more, that's not actually Draigo's best feat, which speaks volumes. I was just pointing out that the text makes it clear that, contrary to your assumption, he was alone and unaided.

Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

Kanluwen wrote:Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

To be fair, the text itself does say, "alone and unaided." It's pretty hard to make an argument against him doing it, you know, alone and unaided.

As for the earlier posts, I'll certainly grant you that Marneus Calgar is over-the-top BS, but look who wrote him. Creed? Smart general. Lost over half of Cadia. Not exactly a man without failures. Marbo? He is, of course, over the top, as he's a joke character - the name's an anagram of "Rambo," for those who don't do their daily Jumble.

Seaward wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

To be fair, the text itself does say, "alone and unaided." It's pretty hard to make an argument against him doing it, you know, alone and unaided.

No, it's really not. It simply says that he defeated Mortarion alone an unaided. And it's not even like he killed Mortarion. He simply defeated him. How, we do not know. The Grey Knights do know how to bind and disrupt Daemonic forces, so for all we know he could have said Abbrafreakingcadabra and held Mortarion still.
Why wouldn't it have worked for the Supreme Grandmaster? Who knows. Maybe Mortarion had to be weakened first. Maybe Mortarion's like a big, zombie freakin' Pokemon.

As for the earlier posts, I'll certainly grant you that Marneus Calgar is over-the-top BS, but look who wrote him.

Marneus Calgar's fluff hasn't changed for a long time.

Creed? Smart general. Lost over half of Cadia. Not exactly a man without failures.

Be fair. He "lost over half of Cadia" to the single largest incursion of Traitor Astartes since the Horus Heresy itself.

Marbo? He is, of course, over the top, as he's a joke character - the name's an anagram of "Rambo," for those who don't do their daily Jumble.

Yeah...I hope they kill him off. Freakin' waste a development slot with that joker. Nice friggin' job Cruddace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also take this moment to say that the Grey Knights Codex has one problem that is symptomatic of almost every Codex within recent years.

They've added "fluff" to justify a page count. They don't elaborate entirely upon the stuff, they just let it sit there and do nothing with it. Sometimes you'll see a tie-in later on to another army book, but mostly it just rots.

We know how be defeated him: the old single-handily carving a name into his heart after dispatching his deamon prince retinue alone and unaided trick.

Kanluwen wrote:Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

I accept your concession.

P.S. Try to concede with a bit more dignity next time, you don't have to throw a temper tantrum because you were wrong.

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it's really not. It simply says that he defeated Mortarion alone an unaided. And it's not even like he killed Mortarion. He simply defeated him. How, we do not know. The Grey Knights do know how to bind and disrupt Daemonic forces, so for all we know he could have said Abbrafreakingcadabra and held Mortarion still.
Why wouldn't it have worked for the Supreme Grandmaster? Who knows. Maybe Mortarion had to be weakened first. Maybe Mortarion's like a big, zombie freakin' Pokemon.

Let's be honest; if I wrote, in a DIY Index Astartes, that the Grand Master of the Space Cowboys defeated Magnus alone and unaided, how many people would think I was writing a decent character?

Marneus Calgar's fluff hasn't changed for a long time.

But has he always been everybody's Wraithlord-punching spiritual liege?

Be fair. He "lost over half of Cadia" to the single largest incursion of Traitor Astartes since the Horus Heresy itself.

Absolutely true. My point was that he didn't write "CADIA RULES!" on Abaddon's underwear and use his fancy helmet to eat his cornflakes out of the next day, the way he would have if Ward had written him. He's a character clearly capable of losing, which Draigo is not. Daemon Primarch? No problem. Lost forever in the warp? Not only is it not a problem, the natives actually get out of his way, because he's that much of a badass.

Avatar of Khaine, actually.

Marneus Calgar at least struggled in the fight.

Since we are talking about Draigo, I want everyone to think about M'kar, The Daemonic Whipping boy of GW.


throughout 5th edition he has been: Killed 3 times by Ultramarines(two of those times were by Calgar's hand) ran back into the warp to escape Exterminatus from Sicarius, Killed three times by Grey Knights(twice by Draigo), and strangled to death by Mephiston. to top it off, all of thing happened between 799.m41 and 999.m41

So in the span of about 200 years, he was killed 7 times, twice by a dagger in the throat, once by strangulation, Was ripped Limb from limb, and 3 times by nameless methods, and was scared back into the warp from Exterminatus.


For this fellow, Life Sucks. A lot.

Ironically he's the only Daemon mentioned as giving Draigo anything vaguely resembling a good fight.

Granted, he was amped by a large Warp Rift at the time.

Seaward wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
No, it's really not. It simply says that he defeated Mortarion alone an unaided. And it's not even like he killed Mortarion. He simply defeated him. How, we do not know. The Grey Knights do know how to bind and disrupt Daemonic forces, so for all we know he could have said Abbrafreakingcadabra and held Mortarion still.
Why wouldn't it have worked for the Supreme Grandmaster? Who knows. Maybe Mortarion had to be weakened first. Maybe Mortarion's like a big, zombie freakin' Pokemon.

Let's be honest; if I wrote, in a DIY Index Astartes, that the Grand Master of the Space Cowboys defeated Magnus alone and unaided, how many people would think I was writing a decent character?

No, but that's mostly because you're talking about a DIY Index Astartes with "the Grand Master of the Space Cowboys" fighting a Primarch who has not come out of his self-enforced seclusion for quite awhile.

Marneus Calgar's fluff hasn't changed for a long time.

But has he always been everybody's Wraithlord-punching spiritual liege?

Yep. The "everyone wants to be Ultramarines" thing is overplayed and overcomplained about. Move on.

Be fair. He "lost over half of Cadia" to the single largest incursion of Traitor Astartes since the Horus Heresy itself.

Absolutely true. My point was that he didn't write "CADIA RULES!" on Abaddon's underwear and use his fancy helmet to eat his cornflakes out of the next day, the way he would have if Ward had written him. He's a character clearly capable of losing, which Draigo is not. Daemon Primarch? No problem. Lost forever in the warp? Not only is it not a problem, the natives actually get out of his way, because he's that much of a badass.

Point 1: Creed has done plenty of things that would be considered "over the top", and that was before Ward was even writing Codices.
Point 2: Draigo's entire current existence is a loss for Draigo. Seriously. Do you think a Grey Knight wants to be trapped in the Warp? It's like the jailer being tossed in with the inmates.
Point 3: Daemons avoid Grey Knights when they can, your point is moot.

Point 4: It takes Nurgle more effort to break wind than it does for him to magic up more twenty more Plaguebearers the instant Draigo smashes one.

Point 5: All Khorne would have to do, is let Draigo enter his periphrial vision, and Draigo would be a stain.

Point 6: Slaanesh just hasn't found him cute enough yet.

Point 7: Tzeentch planned this all along.

As much as Dragio is smashing and slashing around in the warp, he's really accomplishing a giant pile of nothing. It's the ultimate tar pit. Instead of being on the front lines, defending worlds and human lives from corruption and annihilation... he's in the warp, smashing Bloodletters together. Good thing Khorne has 10x666^6666666666 Bloodletters, and can magic up as many as he pleases, whenever he wants. Because he is a true, and omnipotent God. Like the other Chaos Gods.

I mean.. what is Draigo's plan? Smash enough insignificant Daemon faces for the Gods to notice him, so they can instantly annihilate him with their limitless power?

Draigo is a fool at best, and lunchmeat at worst.

He is certainly not superman, like everyone makes him out to be. As powerful as he is, he's completely powerless. He's his own double negative.

And what about sentence: "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory." witch virtuelly means: "If the Chaos Gods could not beat Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."?

I still think that Emperor is involved somehow. Keeping Draigo intentional into the Warp to troll Chaos Gods.

Brother Coa wrote:And what about sentence: "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory." witch virtuelly means: "If the Chaos Gods could not beat Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."?

I still think that Emperor is involved somehow. Keeping Draigo intentional into the Warp to troll Chaos Gods.

That's not what it means. It, for the hundredth fething time Coa, does not mean that the Chaos Gods themselves, that's Khorne itself, or the entity that is Tzeentch, has tried and failed to kill Dragio.

It does, Dark Gods = Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods = Nurgle, Khorne, Tzennech and Slaanesh. They can't kill him, and I am strongly believe that Emperor is involved in this somehow...

The Chaos god's have NEVER faced a mortal in person, nor would they ever (need to).

They would if he was walking around in the Warp.

And killing bunch of their minions, in Warp...

Brother Coa wrote:It does, Dark Gods = Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods = Nurgle, Khorne, Tzennech and Slaanesh. They can't kill him, and I am strongly believe that Emperor is involved in this somehow...

Trust me, I'm a doctor, my first language is English. It does not mean the Chaos Gods themselves have tried and failed to kill him. It means their servants have tried and failed, who are part of their God. Khorne could turn Draigo into a red smear with a flick of his finger, it's his Bloodletters and select Bloodthirsters that have tried and failed, not that their deaths mean anything as they're just re-born. Draigo is s a pawn of the Dark Gods, existing because his torments and battles against their servants amuses them.

By that logic every Bloodletter and Bloodthirsters is Dark God. And where does it say that Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods?

And you forgotten Keeper of Knowledge, City of Forbidenn Knowledge, the Chosen of Slaanesh, Nurgle's Garden....

Not by my logic. Your twisted fanboy hatred logic maybe, but not mine. "The Dark Gods" means their servants, not the entity that is "Khorne", the guy who sits on a brass throne. I also never said anything along the lines of "Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods'. You're making that up.
Mind adding some context for that last jumbled mess of a sentence?

Yes, Coa. Every deamon is a member of the Dark Gods. The Dark Gods refers to the "families" of the deamons in question.

You mean like Imperium's "Million of Wolds" meaning millions of worlds instead of 1 million?

And why not called them "servant's of the Dark Gods" but only Dark Gods?

Brother Coa wrote:You mean like Imperium's "Million of Wolds" meaning millions of worlds instead of 1 million?

And why not called them "servant's of the Dark Gods" but only Dark Gods?

No, not like that. No where does it say that the Imperium has "Millions of worlds". It's "A million", which means roughly one million, could be a bit more, a bit less, or on the dot.

Because their's no need. The Dark Gods, and Servants of the Dark Gods, mean the same thing.

You are tight, we already fight there....
And when I say Dark Gods I could be talking about Chaos Gods or 1 Bloodletter by that logic?

Brother Coa wrote:You are tight, we already fight there....
And when I say Dark Gods I could be talking about Chaos Gods or 1 Bloodletter by that logic?

No, when you say the Dark Gods, you refer to all the warp spawned things that live under your bed.

So Sasquatch is a Dark God then

Brother Coa wrote:You are tight, we already fight there....
And when I say Dark Gods I could be talking about Chaos Gods or 1 Bloodletter by that logic?

Yes. For example -

"The Dark Gods attacked the world of Yaddayadda Prime, a great Bloodthirster tears through the gates of Random City."

Obviously, by Dark Gods, it means the Bloodthirster. Like the Draigo passage, the "Dark Gods" means the servants.

I'm with Brother Coa on this one, dark gods =/= all daemons, that makes very little logic. The dark gods would be you know gods, a radical concept I know but bare with me.

Dark Gods are being used as a synonym of Chaos as a whole, in the same way that we say that Japan attacked the USA December 7th 1941. We don't say that pilot this and this attacked, we say that Japan did.