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Yes but in Warhammer 40k there must be difference. It would be like saying: "The Emperor waged battle against Tyranids on Macragge and win it." or "C'Tan's conquer Damnos from the
Emperor." You can't give the same title to the most powerful and most weakest thing in one faction ( like Emperor = Emperor of Mankind and Emperor = Imperial Guardsman ). Then what would be difference between those 2? Every time someone say Emperor the other one would ask: what do you mean? Marine? Guardsman? Sister? Inquisition? Emperor? Primarch?...
Same as this, peopel ask me "Dark Gods" I ask: what do you mean: Bloodletter? Spawns? Damonettes? Bloodthrster? Great Unclean One?....
To me Dark Gods = Chaos Gods only. The rest are Grater Daemons, lesser Daemons, Chaos cultist, Chaos Servants and Chaos Space Marines. Not everybody can be Dark Gods...

Actually, that example makes perfect sense in the context of the argument. Although, whether you disagree due to your own preferences is irrelevant. It makes literary sense. The Dark Gods can refer to their servants, as its a faction and not just one entity.

Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

And the author does, in the passage. It means their servants.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

And the author does, in the passage. It means their servants.

And were does he mentioned that?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, that also means that "Dark Gods" can refer to Chaos Gods.
It's up to the individual to decide what does that title implement to, until author tell us otherwise.

And the author does, in the passage. It means their servants.

And were does he mentioned that?

In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

Obviously the Dark Gods, if they were ever inclined to, could kill Draigo. I doubt Tzeentch or Nurgle would really particularly care to kill Draigo, Khorne would if they ever met but as far as I know they haven't. Slaanesh has actually proven to be a vengeful god if it feels insulted, but I guess it's possible that Draigo killing its six chosen handmaidens isn't considered "insulting" enough.

Also, uh, "C'tan" and "Emperor" have in fact been used when referring to not just the conquests of the beings referred to, but their servants. It happens particularly often with the Emperor.

He is part of a Tzeentch plot.

iproxtaco wrote:[
In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

And this is why I am convinced that it is in fact the Emperor who keeps him trapped into the Warp and protects them against Chaos Gods only to make them see how much powerful he really is. It doesen't say anything about that, but it is logical to consider it since he is waking around the Warp for how many years non corrupted, with still enough faith in himself to burn Daemons and crush their cities. Even Primarchs was not so strong as he is.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:[
In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

And this is why I am convinced that it is in fact the Emperor who keeps him trapped into the Warp and protects them against Chaos Gods only to make them see how much powerful he really is. It doesen't say anything about that, but it is logical to consider it since he is waking around the Warp for how many years non corrupted, with still enough faith in himself to burn Daemons and crush their cities. Even Primarchs was not so strong as he is.

Mr. Dorn and Sangunius have requested a word with you.

Or Tzneetch is protecting him. Waiting for the right moment to unleash his unstoppable power on the other Chaos Gods. Cause the rest of the Chaos Gods fear the Draigo.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:[
In the passage. Read it. It does not have to say exactly in black and white for something to be true. It talks about how only the craziest of their SERVANTS attack Draigo now.

And this is why I am convinced that it is in fact the Emperor who keeps him trapped into the Warp and protects them against Chaos Gods only to make them see how much powerful he really is. It doesen't say anything about that, but it is logical to consider it since he is waking around the Warp for how many years non corrupted, with still enough faith in himself to burn Daemons and crush their cities. Even Primarchs was not so strong as he is.

You missed my point. You can derive conclusions from evidence taken from the text. What you believe is firstly, not backed up by the fluff you're drawing from, and two, is mostly your own conjecture. The actual meaning of the phrase is there in passage, it is not explicitly stated word for word in black and white, but it is there, you have to read and understand it as a whole rather than picking on select few pieces that don't make sense when taken out of context.

He beat a primarch in single combat. Of course he's the worst Mary Sue yet. His fluff's fanwank BS. Let's move on.

Draigo is a DAEMON Prince of the Emperor. Dun, dun DUN!

Seaward wrote:He beat a primarch in single combat. Of course he's the worst Mary Sue yet. His fluff's fanwank BS. Let's move on.

He beat a wounded Primarch in combat while enraged.

He's an eternal warrior with a 3++ save and a s10 weapon against Daemons.

Crunching the numbers for Draigo vs Angron (based on his IA statline)

Angron gets 6 attacks, hitting on 3+, rerolling 1 miss, wounding on 2+.

5.333 hits
4.444 wounds
Causes 1.49 unsaved wounds

Draigo gets 4 attacks, hitting on 4+ rerolling all misses, wounding on 2+.

3 hits
2.5 wounds
1.25 unsaved wounds

Draigo would ultimately lose by a small margin.

1) Primarchs are not as powerful as is popularly believed.
2) Grey Knights, especially Grandmasters excel at killing Daemons.
3) A Supreme Grandmaster + Draigo > Daemon Primarch.


I don't get where this obsession with Primarchs being infallible comes from. It's okay for loyalist Primarchs to suck, but as soon as one of most powerful individuals in the Imperium, ESPECIALLY AGAINST DAEMONS, goes out and beats a traitor Primarch there is a massive outcry that he's a Mary Sue?

So what is this, only Chaos gets powerful characters now?

Amaya wrote:1) Primarchs are not as powerful as is popularly believed.

How powerful are they then?

Void__Dragon wrote:

Amaya wrote:1) Primarchs are not as powerful as is popularly believed.

How powerful are they then?

Probably around where Mephiston and Angron's stats are. More powerful than all but a handful in the galaxy, but to say that there is no one out there who can beat them is asinine.

Amaya wrote:Probably around where Mephiston and Angron's stats are. More powerful than all but a handful in the galaxy, but to say that there is no one out there who can beat them is asinine.

Funny.

Because I recall Sanguinius breaking the back of the strongest Bloodthirster in the setting.

I also recall Corax and Angron taking Lascannon fire to the chest and being just cool.

Vulkan was shot with a weapon apparently powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud (One of the siege cannons Perturabo took from the Lion maybe?), and survived. Vulkan also can toss tanks around like children's toys.

Magnus could destroy Titans personally and tear apart the surface of Prospero with his power, but being the second strongest psyker in the setting he admittedly kind of cheats.

The Lion and Luther when they fought they allegedly shook the entire monastery of their Order, crumbling the masonry with the power of their blows. You could chalk that up to a mere legend, but Ferrus Manus did similar, allegedly when he fought the Emperor to test his father, they crumbled mountains. Magnus supports such a claim in A Thousand Sons, mentioning destroying the peaks of mountains casually at one point when training with his fellow Primarchs.

Are they the strongest beings in the setting? No.

But they were already on par with or greater than a Greater Daemon standard, as a Daemon Prince, they should be much more powerful.

Which is why a single mortal, even a Grey Knight, besting one is an incredible feat. I actually wouldn't have a problem if Draigo just did that... It's the fact that he somehow manages to make that feat look irrelevant with what he does later.

I'd have more to add, but Void Dragon did a bang-up job of pointing out why primarchs aren't basically just Mephiston. Fluff is replete with examples of primarchs being so far above and beyond "normal" Space Marines that it's a fairly ridiculous comparison.

When Garro met Dorn he like breathed on Garro and he went flying. Also Mortarion isn't a Primarch he's a deamon primarch. Basically, he's a super-primarch now.

The funny thing is, if Draigo's story was told without giving him a name or stats, people would love him and consider his tale a great tragedy, one of the mysteries of 40k.

Edited out of disgust for this thread...

It sounds like Kanluwen is being an adult and Void__Dragon being the baby putting words in people's mouth in this situation.

Kan and I don't see eye to eye all the time but if we are agreeing against you, you probably fethed up bad.

ph34r wrote:It sounds like Kanluwen is being an adult and Void__Dragon being the baby putting words in people's mouth in this situation.

Kan and I don't see eye to eye all the time but if we are agreeing against you, you probably fethed up bad.

Did you miss pages two and three?

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

Draigo had no help in smashing through Mortarion's bodyguards and using Mortarion's heart as a diary.

This was pointed out by Void Dragon, and Kan continued arguing that Draigo didn't accomplish Mortarion's defeat on his own a few more times, before dropping it and saying this to Void:

Whatever. You're clearly going to whine about Draigo no matter what, so have fun with the cryfest.

Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

ph34r wrote:The funny thing is, if Draigo's story was told without giving him a name or stats, people would love him and consider his tale a great tragedy, one of the mysteries of 40k.

Not really. As I said earlier in the thread, if Draigo were somebody's DIY chapter master, everyone would consider him among the most eye-rollingly bad fanwank ever to crop up. Giving him a name, stats, and the official GW stamp of approval doesn't magically make his fluff better. If anything, it makes it worse, as Ward's not a pimply thirteen year-old.

ph34r wrote:The funny thing is, if Draigo's story was told without giving him a name or stats, people would love him and consider his tale a great tragedy, one of the mysteries of 40k.

It's really not Draigo's stats or name that bothers some people. It's more about how his fluff is way over-the-top, more over-the-top than most things 40k for that matter.

Draigo is bad fluff. Had the Emperor had 20 Draigos rather than Primarchs during the Great Crusade, he could have just skipped into the Eye of Terror and given the Big 4 what for.

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

So what, you can't imagine someone busting through a bodyguard?

I agree with Kan that no matter what you people are going to have a fit about Draigo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

augustus5 wrote:Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

Hahahahahahahaha, if you think that you and Void are the victims here, you are fooling nobody.


I also like how you edited your post "out of disgust for this thread... " to remove your blatant bashing of Kanluwen. That probably makes you feel like people don't know what a baby you were acting like, right?

Asherian Command wrote:
Mr. Dorn and Sangunius have requested a word with you.

So they were in Warp for years?
And they didn't fall to Chaos, that's true. But half of their brothers are. While single Grey Knight never did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
You missed my point. You can derive conclusions from evidence taken from the text. What you believe is firstly, not backed up by the fluff you're drawing from, and two, is mostly your own conjecture. The actual meaning of the phrase is there in passage, it is not explicitly stated word for word in black and white, but it is there, you have to read and understand it as a whole rather than picking on select few pieces that don't make sense when taken out of context.

But again you cannot prove that it's the Chaos Gods that torture him because there is no words to describe that as well, same as my theory - it cannot be proven or disproven, just liek God.
If you want to believe in your theory, fine - I will believe in mine.

The fact's we know about him so far that are written are: He is insanely strong ( Fallen Primarch after all + his bodyguards ), He is insanely resistant to Warp ( Emperor's melding for sure ), He returns to Warp the second he helps his brothers defeat some Daemon in real world, He kills thousands of Daemons with ease, some are even avoiding him ( and he is in WARP )...
Either Emperor or Tzennetz are helping him ( just like O'Kais was helped by Khorne in Fire Warrior ), that's for sure.

ph34r wrote:So what, you can't imagine someone busting through a bodyguard?

I think it's the part that comes directly after busting through a bodyguard that people roll their eyes at.