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augustus5 wrote:This was pointed out by Void Dragon, and Kan continued arguing that Draigo didn't accomplish Mortarion's defeat on his own a few more times, before dropping it and saying this to Void:

In fairness, we don't know the sort of damage Mortarion and his bodyguard may have suffered prior Draigo smashing through the bodyguard. For Draigo to appointed Grand Master on the battlefield, I would I suspect that the Grey Knights already had the advantage. For all we know, Mortarion had already been crippled and his bodyguard had taken heavy losses. We don't have enough information to say for certain.

Brother Coa wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Mr. Dorn and Sangunius have requested a word with you.

So they were in Warp for years?
And they didn't fall to Chaos, that's true. But half of their brothers are. While single Grey Knight never did.

There's kind of a difference between super super humans being misled by evil gods because their father in his 'infinite' wisdom didn't see fit to tell them that Chaos was more dangerous than anything else in the universe, and a group of super humans being brainwashed and trained specifically to combat those same dangers. Here's something: has a primarch ever been killed by an ork? No. Has a Grey Knight?


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iproxtaco wrote:
You missed my point. You can derive conclusions from evidence taken from the text. What you believe is firstly, not backed up by the fluff you're drawing from, and two, is mostly your own conjecture. The actual meaning of the phrase is there in passage, it is not explicitly stated word for word in black and white, but it is there, you have to read and understand it as a whole rather than picking on select few pieces that don't make sense when taken out of context.

But again you cannot prove that it's the Chaos Gods that torture him because there is no words to describe that as well, same as my theory - it cannot be proven or disproven, just liek God.
If you want to believe in your theory, fine - I will believe in mine.

The fact's we know about him so far that are written are: He is insanely strong ( Fallen Primarch after all + his bodyguards ), He is insanely resistant to Warp ( Emperor's melding for sure ), He returns to Warp the second he helps his brothers defeat some Daemon in real world, He kills thousands of Daemons with ease, some are even avoiding him ( and he is in WARP )...
Either Emperor or Tzennetz are helping him ( just like O'Kais was helped by Khorne in Fire Warrior ), that's for sure.

Durza wrote:There's no evidence that the Emperor or Tzeentch is aiding him.

There is also no evidence to support otherwise, that he don't have help at all from the 3'rd side.



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Durza wrote:
There's kind of a difference between super super humans being misled by evil gods because their father in his 'infinite' wisdom didn't see fit to tell them that Chaos was more dangerous than anything else in the universe, and a group of super humans being brainwashed and trained specifically to combat those same dangers. Here's something: has a primarch ever been killed by an ork? No. Has a Grey Knight?

I see your point, but still Primarchs were something close to the Emperor and they fell to corruption. Gray Knight may be incoruptible but they stil can't survive in the Warp for so long without protection, nothing can.
And when did you see Grey Knights fighting non-Daemon forces?

Durza wrote:
And by the way. Killing daemons... in the Warp. Why is it they don't instantly heal any wound they take?

The fact that Grey Knights are anathema to Daemons? The fact that their weaponry is more effective at killing Daemons than a sharpened silver cross, soaked in holy water, adorned with garlic, reflecting sunlight, is at killing a vampire?


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Brother Coa wrote:
I see your point, but still Primarchs were something close to the Emperor and they fell to corruption. Gray Knight may be incoruptible but they stil can't survive in the Warp for so long without protection, nothing can.

Chaos can. Enslavers can. Orks can. The Eldar Gods can/could.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Chaos can.

Because Chaos is Warp in some manner.

Enslavers can.

Enslavers are beings that live there, as many others are.

Orks can.

Never heard about the Ork surviving there for years.

The Eldar Gods can/could.

Eldar Gods are myth and nothing else.

Brother Coa wrote:
Never heard about the Ork surviving there for years.

There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

Brother Coa wrote:

Eldar Gods are myth and nothing else.

The Avatar would like to have a word with you, you know, being a part of Khaine and all that.

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

Just out of curiousity, which warboss is this?

Pilau Rice wrote:
There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

Cadia is 5 meters from the Eye of Terror, and she isn't at Warp. No living being from our reality can survive in Warp without some kind of protection. Not even Orks.

Brother Coa wrote:
The Avatar would like to have a word with you, you know, being a part of Khaine and all that.

Living Saint is basically the same thing. Avatar of Khaine is some sort of Eldar Daemon who harness the powers of the Warp, not Eldar "Gods".

ph34r wrote:

"901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the
Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is
elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din
of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

So what, you can't imagine someone busting through a bodyguard?

I agree with Kan that no matter what you people are going to have a fit about Draigo.


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augustus5 wrote:Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

Hahahahahahahaha, if you think that you and Void are the victims here, you are fooling nobody.


I also like how you edited your post "out of disgust for this thread... " to remove your blatant bashing of Kanluwen. That probably makes you feel like people don't know what a baby you were acting like, right?

Since you failed to understand the point, I'll state it again. The argument was between Void and Kan over whether Draigo carved his name into Mortarion on his own or with help. Void posted the direct text that stated he did it without any aid, Kan ignored it and continued saying that he was aided, and then went on to basically say that Draigo nay-sayers are crybabies. I don't know how I'm a victim here since I wasn't even involved with the thread at that point.

I edited my post because the mods around here let certain members get away with bashing people in thread after thread, but then jump on anyone who takes the troll bait and bashes back at them.

augustus5 wrote:

ph34r wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Whether or not any of us like/dislike the fluff, it's right there as printed on page 15 of Codex GKs. To continue arguing otherwise and then personally attack Void's character is an example of the trolling that Kan gets away with in thread after thread here. Defend him if you want, but his record speaks for itself.

Hahahahahahahaha, if you think that you and Void are the victims here, you are fooling nobody.


I also like how you edited your post "out of disgust for this thread... " to remove your blatant bashing of Kanluwen. That probably makes you feel like people don't know what a baby you were acting like, right?

Since you failed to understand the point, I'll state it again. The argument was between Void and Kan over whether Draigo carved his name into Mortarion on his own or with help. Void posted the direct text that stated he did it without any aid, Kan ignored it and continued saying that he was aided, and then went on to basically say that Draigo nay-sayers are crybabies. I don't know how I'm a victim here since I wasn't even involved with the thread at that point.

I edited my post because the mods around here let certain members get away with bashing people in thread after thread, but then jump on anyone who takes the troll bait and bashes back at them.

I don't care about whatever argument you were having before, all I care about is that I agree that you people would while about Draigo no matter how reasonably his background was explained. Then, you proceed to go directly to flaming, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Then you try to redact your bashing to seem like you were not in fact being a big baby.

I have no idea how to explain my extreme hatred for the Grey Knights. I've tried several times to figure out how best to explain my thoughts but, I just can't seem to do it without (inadvertantly) offending GK players.
My problem with GK is that they were never meant to be an army in the first place. And I'm almost possitive that there are only 500 Grey Knights and they only wear Terminator Armour (I know that the fluff has since changed).
Their colour sceme was completely changed from being copys of the Deathwatch (with two silver arms) to a quick and easy color sceme to entice more children to want to collect them.
GK seem like a poor attemp from GW to get more money by re-hashing space marines yet again.

My general hatred revolves around:
The Dreadknight is... the stupidest thing I've ever seen created by GW (the female orc cheerleader is better).
Draigo... the stupidest thing I've ever read in any codex (you can blame Mat Ward but he's not the focus of my anger).
The army itself... the only army in 40k that has no reason to exist (unless there is a daemon player present).

Personally I haven't played a game since early 4th. My orks are slowly nearing completion and I have already made a vow to my circle of friends:
I will not participate in any gaming event that involves any number of GK armies or more than 3 "normal" marine armies.

They liked this idea and have already enforced it upon themselves.
Infact just recently my friend collected a new chaos army. He was excited to go to a RT event but when he arrived there was only 10 players and the armies were 6 GK armies and the rest where various space wolves and blood angels.
I'm not saying I'll throw a hissy-fit if I see GK. Nor am I saying I have a problem with GK players. I just don't believe they needed a codex. If anything they should only be allowed to face off against Daemons and Chaos Marines (IMO).

DeffDred wrote:I have no idea how to explain my extreme hatred for the Grey Knights. I've tried several times to figure out how best to explain my thoughts but, I just can't seem to do it without (inadvertantly) offending GK players.
My problem with GK is that they were never meant to be an army in the first place. And I'm almost possitive that there are only 500 Grey Knights and they only wear Terminator Armour (I know that the fluff has since changed).
Their colour sceme was completely changed from being copys of the Deathwatch (with two silver arms) to a quick and easy color sceme to entice more children to want to collect them.
GK seem like a poor attemp from GW to get more money by re-hashing space marines yet again.

My general hatred revolves around:
The Dreadknight is... the stupidest thing I've ever seen created by GW (the female orc cheerleader is better).
Draigo... the stupidest thing I've ever read in any codex (you can blame Mat Ward but he's not the focus of my anger).
The army itself... the only army in 40k that has no reason to exist (unless there is a daemon player present).

Personally I haven't played a game since early 4th. My orks are slowly nearing completion and I have already made a vow to my circle of friends:
I will not participate in any gaming event that involves any number of GK armies or more than 3 "normal" marine armies.

They liked this idea and have already enforced it upon themselves.
Infact just recently my friend collected a new chaos army. He was excited to go to a RT event but when he arrived there was only 10 players and the armies were 6 GK armies and the rest where various space wolves and blood angels.
I'm not saying I'll throw a hissy-fit if I see GK. Nor am I saying I have a problem with GK players. I just don't believe they needed a codex. If anything they should only be allowed to face off against Daemons and Chaos Marines (IMO).

You are pretty close to as wrong as possible, fairly consistently wrong across the board there.

There were never only 500 GK in terminator armor. Back in the day GK did only use terminator armor, though, this is true. However back in the day GK were silver. Back in the day GK were rumored to have more around the order of 3000-6000 marines, not 500, given the descriptions of Grand Masters being of equivalent power and commanding strength to Chapter Masters.

The index astartes article, which I also own, shows GK as having a weird black/silver armor scheme that is never seen again. So in total, your first paragraph of whining is 100% unfounded.

The dreadknight is pretty dumb. It was almost cool, but it isn't. I won't argue that one.
Draigo is in fact not dumb, but rather one of the better pieces of fluff from the whole GK book.
Space Marines should be extremely rare, but they aren't in game. Inquisition should not have been able to take to the field of battle on huge scales, but they can in game. Craftworld eldar should not fight so many inane battles as it does, but they do in game. Most 40k armies and battles don't make sense fluffwise vs gamewise, so it is no great stretch to include Grey Knights as playable.

As someone that has not played in a long time, you are even less qualified to gripe about 40k gameplay problems.
Your "vow" is complete lunacy and frankly more than a bit antisocial.

You can't control what other people like. You say at one time that you won't throw a fit about GK, but here you are, throwing a fit, and saying that GK players should not even be allowed to play the game at all against non-chaos.

Viersche wrote:Just out of curiousity, which warboss is this?

Tuska Daemon-Killa. Went on a Waaagh! against the Eye of Terror. He at first succeeded on some worlds, but as his Waaagh! dwindled he ended up on a Daemon-world, fought a Daemon Prince, reached up between its legs and "made a gesture of his own"before he was killed. Everyday, he and his Boyz are resurrected to fight again, finding what amounts to an Ork utopia.

But I wan't throwing a fit. I clearly stated that I was unable to explain myslef correctly. I also used terms like "almost possitive" and "IMO". I didn't mean to offend but clearly I ruffled your feathers. Sorry.
And as far as your Lunacy comment. That was kinda rude. I'm entitled to my ideals and you yours.

Guess what I did??

I didn't buy it and I haven't read it.


HOORAY I WIN!

Viersche wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

Just out of curiousity, which warboss is this?

Tuska, pg. 26 of the Ork Codex... he also snipped off a Daemon Prince's balls or so it is implied.

Brother Coa wrote:
Living Saint is basically the same thing. Avatar of Khaine is some sort of Eldar Daemon who harness the powers of the Warp, not Eldar "Gods".

So... you pretty much make up your own fluff and ignore the parts that don't fit. Got it.

An Avatar is an Eldar Daemon. It even used to have the "Daemon" rule.

Amaya wrote:*Interesting ideas & stats*

Too bad such views are incredibly unpopular, I quite enjoyed the read. Considering that it was GW that produced the rules (as well as similar one's for other Primarchs in other 'one-off' campaigns) it's kinda funny when fans read them and then can't handle the end product because it doesn't match up to the OTT machismo of the BL books. Seems like most fans wouldn't be happy unless Primarchs were C'Tan slayers on TT...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So... you pretty much make up your own fluff and ignore the parts that don't fit. Got it.

No....he is Daemon, just see his stats.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:An Avatar is an Eldar Daemon. It even used to have the "Daemon" rule.

It still has. Doesn't make Khaine a non-God.

The Laughing God also said hi.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It still has. Doesn't make Khaine a non-God.

The Laughing God also said hi.

They are just a myth, in fact: they are much Gods as the Emperor is to Humanity.
Everybody think about him as a divine being, while he's not - he is the most powerful Human psyker in existence but far from real god.
Eldar gods to, they are just myths. Just like Mohammed, or Buda or Christan God... at least Emperor has flesh and blood ( somewhat ).

Brother Coa wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It still has. Doesn't make Khaine a non-God.

The Laughing God also said hi.

They are just a myth, in fact: they are much Gods as the Emperor is to Humanity.
Everybody think about him as a divine being, while he's not - he is the most powerful Human psyker in existence but far from real god.
Eldar gods to, they are just myths. Just like Mohammed, or Buda or Christan God... at least Emperor has flesh and blood ( somewhat ).

There's a piece of fluff in the Eldar Codex that states that the souls of Harlequins join the Laughing God when they die. It doesn't say that they think they do, it says they do. Thus, the Laughing God exists.

As for the point of stuff surviving in the warp: you said nothing could, we proved you wrong. Then there's Lysander, the Legion of the Damned etc.

DeffDred wrote:But I wan't throwing a fit. I clearly stated that I was unable to explain myslef correctly. I also used terms like "almost possitive" and "IMO". I didn't mean to offend but clearly I ruffled your feathers. Sorry.
And as far as your Lunacy comment. That was kinda rude. I'm entitled to my ideals and you yours.

Sorry then. I will still contend that a fair bit of your issue with GK comes from misinterpretation of old fluff/fluff changes/assumed GW money grubbing.

I also maintain that it is totally ridiculous to "boycott" playing GK, and to think that GK players shouldn't be allowed to play vs all armies like everyone else.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's a piece of fluff in the Eldar Codex that states that the souls of Harlequins join the Laughing God when they die. It doesn't say that they think they do, it says they do. Thus, the Laughing God exists.

And Imperial codexes say that Emperor is a God that protect all Mankind from the Chaos Gods and that he will return one day and kick their buts...
And lot of people don't believe that...
And we all know what happened to every Eldar soul out there

As for the point of stuff surviving in the warp: you said nothing could, we proved you wrong. Then there's Lysander, the Legion of the Damned etc.

Lysandaer was there for 6 months and he was kept alive by Chaos Marines.
Fire Hawks were only in the Warp for several hours probably, and they all begun to mutate with all of their ordinary Human crew dead.
And Draigo is in Warp for how long?

And Draigo is a Grey Knight, get that into your head. He's not your average joe, or even your average Space Marine, he's different even to the Primarchs. He's a Grey Knight, utterly incorruptible, that's how he survives.
The Avatars of Khaine are splinters of the deity Khaine that were thrown out of the Warp by Khorne. Since they fought during the War in Heaven, and interacted with portal members of the Eldar. Admit it, they're real, and you have nothing to prove otherwise.

Just you have nothing to prove Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods. Or that they torture Draigo, except your speculations and misunderstanding of basic words.
And my point was Primarch>>>Grey Knight and they fallen. My other point was Fire Hawks were several hours in the Warp and half of them mutated while all their Human crew die due t o Warp exposure. Adn Drago is in the Warp for how many years?
He must have help fro m3'rd side, it is impossible to survive alone in the Warp for so long...

Listen up, Coa, I'm going to say this once.

HE'S A GREY KNIGHT. Fire Hawks were Marines, and had no protection from the Warp. Draigo, OTOH has sigils and wards so far up his ass he can taste the paper and metal, OK?

It's like saying people in Hazmat suits will catch the plague because a Baby and a 80 year old woman did.

Brother Coa wrote:Just you have nothing to prove Dark Gods are not Chaos Gods. Or that they torture Draigo, except your speculations and misunderstanding of basic words.

Lolwut? I'm not trying to prove that, I was simply trying to make you understand that 'Dark Gods' can refer to the servants of the Gods, which has been discussed already. I also never said they torture Draigo, you're making more gak up. I said they find his exploits amusing due to their insignificance.

And my point was Primarch>>>Grey Knight and they fallen. My other point was Fire Hawks were several hours in the Warp and half of them mutated while all their Human crew die due t o Warp exposure. Adn Drago is in the Warp for how many years?
He must have help fro m3'rd side, it is impossible to survive alone in the Warp for so long...

In this situation a Primarch is woefully inferior to a Grey Knight. As Chowderhead has gracefully described, they're wrapped in anti-Chaos wards and sigils and psycho indoctrination to the point where they cannot be corrupted. That's the massive difference between them and the Primarchs. The latter are not the best of humanity, just humanity exemplified, and they came with all the flaws of your average man, hence why some were corrupted. The Fire Hawks were only Marines, without any of the Grey Knight's advantages, so were easily exposed to the mutating powers of Chaos.