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Though it's an annying fact for me, Necron technology is far more complicated. Eldar can't teleport other Eldar without the Webway, and they don't have weapons which can make enemies fall to atoms. But Eldar are very skilled in psionics and are most powerful psykers, although Necrons don't care...

Necrons were on the verge of purging the galaxy into nothingness until the enslaver plague wiped out their enemy.

At the peak of the Eldar Empire, they would of been little more then ants being swept aside by the Necron warmachine. The old ones were far superior psykers and technologically more advanced with an understanding of genetic engineering that surpassed the Emperor's sciences.

Something like the World Engine could of been part of a fleet of hundreds of thousands at one point.

Eldar would have no chance.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Necrons were on the verge of purging the galaxy into nothingness until the enslaver plague wiped out their enemy.

At the peak of the Eldar Empire, they would of been little more then ants being swept aside by the Necron warmachine. The old ones were far superior psykers and technologically more advanced with an understanding of genetic engineering that surpassed the Emperor's sciences.

Something like the World Engine could of been part of a fleet of hundreds of thousands at one point.

Eldar would have no chance.

That.

Though I am not sure their understanding was any better, of genetic engineering I mean.

The Emperor wanted augmented humans. I am sure if he wanted to create other things he could have. Plus his means would have been more limited. Would an IT guy living in the middle ages be able to make motherboards?

im2randomghgh wrote:That.

Though I am not sure their understanding was any better, of genetic engineering I mean.

The Emperor wanted augmented humans. I am sure if he wanted to create other things he could have. Plus his means would have been more limited. Would an IT guy living in the middle ages be able to make motherboards?

The Old Ones fostered and created entirely new races, such as the Eldar and the Orks.

I think they're basically unable to be fethed with in terms of "genetic engineering".

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:That.

Though I am not sure their understanding was any better, of genetic engineering I mean.

The Emperor wanted augmented humans. I am sure if he wanted to create other things he could have. Plus his means would have been more limited. Would an IT guy living in the middle ages be able to make motherboards?

The Old Ones fostered and created entirely new races, such as the Eldar and the Orks.

I think they're basically unable to be fethed with in terms of "genetic engineering".

\

My point was we DON'T KNOW the Emperor's capacity for genetic engineering, since he never wanted to create anything new, he wanted to augment.

Except for his Primarchs, which are better than Orks/Eldar.

And maybe his custodes, it's ambiguous. But They are certainly better than Orks/Eldar too.

This.

big E wasn't automatically the best at everything, you know

He modified his own race slightly, making them stronger, faster and more badass. It's impressive for a human (ish) genius made from a bunch of mediaeval shaman.

The Old Ones imagined whole races from the ground up. They were a tad better at it

im2randomghgh wrote:My point was we DON'T KNOW the Emperor's capacity for genetic engineering, since he never wanted to create anything new, he wanted to augment.

Except for his Primarchs, which are better than Orks/Eldar.

And maybe his custodes, it's ambiguous. But They are certainly better than Orks/Eldar too.

He could only make 20 Primarchs.

The Old Ones made trillions or more Orks and Eldar.

There have also never been nearly as many Custodes either.

The Emperor only augmented for the most part, and had to use his own genetic material (And perhaps even the aid of Chaos) for the Primarchs.

The Old Ones created entire civilizations from the ground up as a hobby, before they even met the Necrontyr.

I thing we can assume that the primarchs were about the best he could do. If he could do better, why wouldn't he have?

He also couldn't replicate the feat.

He created uber-humans that had no capacity to breed.

The Old Ones created self-perperpetuating SPECIES. This is the difference.

Ascalam wrote:I thing we can assume that the primarchs were about the best he could do. If he could do better, why wouldn't he have?

He also couldn't replicate the feat.

He created uber-humans that had no capacity to breed.

The Old Ones created self-perperpetuating SPECIES. This is the difference.

Well...They DO reproduce, albeit in a parasitic and unconventional way.

Sort of.

They are degenerating though. The copies made from the original Primarchs are genetically inferior to the Primarchs, and any faults in the geneseed tend to get more and more exaggurated with each generation.

In essence they are devolving, while the Old One creations evolved and are still evolving (those which survived anyway).

Ascalam wrote:Sort of.

They are degenerating though. The copies made from the original Primarchs are genetically inferior to the Primarchs, and any faults in the geneseed tend to get more and more exaggurated with each generation.

In essence they are devolving, while the Old One creations evolved and are still evolving (those which survived anyway).

@ The Geneseed thing, Flaws often do get exaggerated, but also pure geneseed keeps getting made by pure chapters. The number of chapters keeps growing too. Who knows? Maybe in 49,999 there will be one hundred thousand chapters? A million?

Um..not quite.

Most chapters use the UM geneseed because it's the purest out there. Doesn't make it 100 percent pure.

Geneseed isn't exactly easy to make either. Generally it's harvested from the progenoids of dead SM's to implant into the next generation. There aren't labs whipping up vats of the stuff, as far as i'm aware..

The new chapters are susccesor chapters of existing chapters, using their geneseed, IIRc, or sometimes a geenseed cocktail mixing two chapters seed to create a hybrid.

I seriousy doubt the chapters are growning that fast, as they are also LOSING chapters wholesale at times, and SM's are incredibly rare in the fluff (if not on the tabletop) due to the rareity of Geneseed, equipment and suitable recruits. (less than one SM per world in the Imperium). If they could massproduce Geneseed there would be a good deal more mariens out there

Ascalam wrote:Um..not quite.

Most chapters use the UM geneseed because it's the purest out there. Doesn't make it 100 percent pure.

Geneseed isn't exactly easy to make either. Generally it's harvested from the progenoids of dead SM's to implant into the next generation. There aren't labs whipping up vats of the stuff, as far as i'm aware..

The new chapters are susccesor chapters of existing chapters, using their geneseed, IIRc, or sometimes a geenseed cocktail mixing two chapters seed to create a hybrid.

I seriousy doubt the chapters are growning that fast, as they are also LOSING chapters wholesale at times, and SM's are incredibly rare in the fluff (if not on the tabletop) due to the rareity of Geneseed, equipment and suitable recruits. (less than one SM per world in the Imperium). If they could massproduce Geneseed there would be a good deal more mariens out there

Each marine naturally grows two progenoids. As time goes by, the rate at which their numbers increase does too. Marines don't need to be dead to have their progenoids removed. Once the Genes develope, they are removed. Only fresh Battle Brothers need to be drill'd at when they die for genes.

Fair enough.

And when battle brothers are gauss flayed out of existence, eaten, the bodies lost, hit by melta/plamsa etc?

Or when the corpses aren't reached in time?

There is an attrition rate on the geneseed too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wasn't one of the chapters declared doomed when the CSM raided their fortress/monastery int he main ruleboook fluff, as the CSM had swiped their stocks of Geneseed?

It was the Marines Exemplar being raided by Huron Blackheart, IIRC.

Ascalam wrote:Fair enough.

And when battle brothers are gauss flayed out of existence, eaten, the bodies lost, hit by melta/plamsa etc?

Or when the corpses aren't reached in time?

There is an attrition rate on the geneseed too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wasn't one of the chapters declared doomed when the CSM raided their fortress/monastery int he main ruleboook fluff, as the CSM had swiped their stocks of Geneseed?

Even so, they wouldn't be truly doomed due to their tithes to the Mechanicus.

Hmm.. Maybe.

Depends on whether the loveable old Mechanicus felt like giving a little back. (they aren't known for this )

Coolyo294 wrote:It was the Marines Exemplar being raided by Huron Blackheart, IIRC.

It was the Marines Errant, according to the awesome book Blood Reaver. So close, but no cigar.

Farseer Petriel wrote:Though it's an annying fact for me, Necron technology is far more complicated. Eldar can't teleport other Eldar without the Webway, and they don't have weapons which can make enemies fall to atoms. But Eldar are very skilled in psionics and are most powerful psykers, although Necrons don't care...

Eldar do have weapons that rip trough the fabric of the universe and transports the enemy into the imaterium...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Necrons were on the verge of purging the galaxy into nothingness until the enslaver plague wiped out their enemy.

At the peak of the Eldar Empire, they would of been little more then ants being swept aside by the Necron warmachine. The old ones were far superior psykers and technologically more advanced with an understanding of genetic engineering that surpassed the Emperor's sciences.

Something like the World Engine could of been part of a fleet of hundreds of thousands at one point.

Eldar would have no chance.

The Old Ones were beating the Necrons before the Enslaver plauge broke out. The old ones were better at genetic enginering but Im not so sure they were more technologicaly advanced than the Eldar at the pinnacle of their civilization. The Eldar could terraform planets like nothing and light up or exstinguish stars at their whim. They did not need slave labour (inferior races) since they had machines doing all their work ect ect

tedurur wrote:

The Old Ones were beating the Necrons before the Enslaver plague broke out. The old ones were better at genetic enginering but Im not so sure they were more technologicaly advanced than the Eldar at the pinnacle of their civilization. The Eldar could terraform planets like nothing and light up or exstinguish stars at their whim. They did not need slave labour (inferior races) since they had machines doing all their work ect ect

No.
The old ones were beaten by the Necron/C'tan before the enslaver plague broke out and forced the C'tan into stasis.
The young races, like Eldar (kr)ork and others were driven back and surely the Necron/C'tan controlled the galaxy at one point.
The old ones ceased to exist. Their creations survived. But so did the sleeping hordes of metallic avatars of death.

The Eldar came to power after the Necrons and enslavers left. They claimed the work of the old ones, the webway, but never got a hold on the warrior race ( the orks ) or the genetic engineering abilities of their former 'masters'.

1hadhq wrote:

tedurur wrote:

The Old Ones were beating the Necrons before the Enslaver plague broke out. The old ones were better at genetic enginering but Im not so sure they were more technologicaly advanced than the Eldar at the pinnacle of their civilization. The Eldar could terraform planets like nothing and light up or exstinguish stars at their whim. They did not need slave labour (inferior races) since they had machines doing all their work ect ect

No.
The old ones were beaten by the Necron/C'tan before the enslaver plague broke out and forced the C'tan into stasis.
The young races, like Eldar (kr)ork and others were driven back and surely the Necron/C'tan controlled the galaxy at one point.
The old ones ceased to exist. Their creations survived. But so did the sleeping hordes of metallic avatars of death.

The Eldar came to power after the Necrons and enslavers left. They claimed the work of the old ones, the webway, but never got a hold on the warrior race ( the orks ) or the genetic engineering abilities of their former 'masters'.

Yes.
Straight from the Necron codex.
"The hot-blooded young races spread across the galaxy, battling Necron science with warp spawned magicks. The Ctan empire of destruction was sent reeling;the forces of the Empyrean were the anthema to them and, for all the hellish destruction they unleashed they could not stay the Old Ones relentless advance."

The Ctan then go about trying to get the pylons up to stop the Old Ones+Minions but befoer they do that the Enslaver plauge breaks out

The collection of codices is kept complete... and mine is still available from GW. ( points at flag.) So yes I was at page 25...

The old ones stirred up the warp and their last creation was chaos itself.

Plus, the old ones transport network was overrun by the enslavers and other warp denizens, something that won't happen with necron tech.
The use of the empyrean was strength borrowed at a price, a price that is paid by the races they created.
The hubris of the old ones doomed them.

I certainly left a few things out in my post, but in the end the old ones might was broken and they play no role in the galaxy anymore.

The "younger" races, had the empyrean to enhance their abilities to stand a chance against the necrons tech.
It may depend if you count this enhancement as equalizing, but I would guess the technological approach is more reliable than the warp.

The eldar would suffer from their fall and surely the loss of the engines of vaul weakened their chance against the C'tan.
Are they able to create new engines of vaul ?

From the Necron codex:

But the C'tan and their Necron slaves are ageless, their science is still unparalleled and time is on their side.

1hadhq wrote:The collection of codices is kept complete... and mine is still available from GW. ( points at flag.) So yes I was at page 25...

The old ones stirred up the warp and their last creation was chaos itself.

Plus, the old ones transport network was overrun by the enslavers and other warp denizens, something that won't happen with necron tech.
The use of the empyrean was strength borrowed at a price, a price that is paid by the races they created.
The hubris of the old ones doomed them.

I certainly left a few things out in my post, but in the end the old ones might was broken and they play no role in the galaxy anymore.

The "younger" races, had the empyrean to enhance their abilities to stand a chance against the necrons tech.
It may depend if you count this enhancement as equalizing, but I would guess the technological approach is more reliable than the warp.

The eldar would suffer from their fall and surely the loss of the engines of vaul weakened their chance against the C'tan.
Are they able to create new engines of vaul ?

Unless the craftworld refugees brought titans with them when they fled the eldar empire i would guess that the craftworlds are still able to build the engines of vaul. The craftworld Yme-Loc in particular seems to have a large number of them.
Of course ability to recreate the pinacles of eldar technology ( moving suns into the webway amongst other things )is in all likelyhood lost forever.

KingDeath wrote:
.
Of course ability to recreate the pinacles of eldar technology ( moving suns into the webway amongst other things )is in all likelyhood lost forever.

Some types and classes of the engines of vaul could be lost too.
The Eldar seemed interested in the blackstone fortressess...

We don't know yet, what the necrons have kept of their tech over this period of stasis.
Parts of it could function like they did 'factory-fresh' , others been lost or inactive.

I would estimate the necrons went as far as possible in technology, without additional enhancements from dimensions like the empyrean.

tedurur wrote:Yes.
Straight from the Necron codex.
"The hot-blooded young races spread across the galaxy, battling Necron science with warp spawned magicks. The Ctan empire of destruction was sent reeling;the forces of the Empyrean were the anthema to them and, for all the hellish destruction they unleashed they could not stay the Old Ones relentless advance."

The Ctan then go about trying to get the pylons up to stop the Old Ones+Minions but befoer they do that the Enslaver plauge breaks out

Did you ignore that that was after the Necrons had wiped out the empire of the Old Ones and had enslaved most of their children races, and by the time the Old Ones made their final assault on the C'tan there were only four left, and their empire had been fractured by in-fighting.

Void__Dragon wrote:

tedurur wrote:Yes.
Straight from the Necron codex.
"The hot-blooded young races spread across the galaxy, battling Necron science with warp spawned magicks. The Ctan empire of destruction was sent reeling;the forces of the Empyrean were the anthema to them and, for all the hellish destruction they unleashed they could not stay the Old Ones relentless advance."

The Ctan then go about trying to get the pylons up to stop the Old Ones+Minions but befoer they do that the Enslaver plauge breaks out

Did you ignore that that was after the Necrons had wiped out the empire of the Old Ones and had enslaved most of their children races, and by the time the Old Ones made their final assault on the C'tan there were only four left, and their empire had been fractured by in-fighting.

The germans were still fighting on russian soil after the defeat at Stalingrad. That does not mean they were winning the war...The Old Ones were winning when the Enslaver plague broke out.

The Old Ones were a few years from having the Warp sealed off forever when the plague broke out: "They [C'tan] instigated a great warding, a plan to forever defeat the magicks of the Old Ones by sealing off the material universe from the Empyrean. With their god-like power it was only a matter of time until they succeeded..." This is where the construction of the Cadia pylons came about and when the enslaver plague really hit the universe and started killing things off, and after the Old Ones had struck back

tedurur wrote:

The germans were still fighting on russian soil after the defeat at Stalingrad. That does not mean they were winning the war...

The Old Ones were winning when the Enslaver plague broke out.

Germans and necrons have nothing in common...

The old ones lost, when they altered the empyrean. Maybe unknowingly, maybe desparate and taking the risk.
Still their actions created the warp as we know it, chaos itself and the old ones died at the hands of what their creations unleashed.
Do you know the old game "nuclear war" ? one faction may win there and clearly claims "i won" over the uninhabitable ruins of planet earth..
Not every 'win' is worth having.

tedurur wrote:The germans were still fighting on russian soil after the defeat at Stalingrad. That does not mean they were winning the war...The Old Ones were winning when the Enslaver plague broke out.

The Old Ones made one desperate last advance with their new child races and were succeeding for a time.

The C'tan still owned the galaxy at this point.

They were "winning" in that they gained the upper hand for a short while, but the Necrons still ultimately bested the Old Ones. One race still exists, the other does not, and the C'tan were only stopped from severing the Materium from the Warp by the Enslaver Plague.