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As someone said earlier, every codex has some cheese in it. Even as far back as 2nd Edition... anyone else remember Space Wolf Terminators with Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, and Cyclone Missile Launchers?

However, it seems as though with the last batch of codexes, there are more units that invite unbalanced exploitation. And I think the reason for this is the GW wants to sell more models. It used to be a model sold because it was awesome looking, or it fit with how an army played. Now people are scooping up models because they can spam them in an exploitative WAAC list. If the IG could only field Heavy Support tanks in single units, as opposed to groups of 3, would anyone buy a Manticore? Or nine of them?

daedalus/ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
- Not every codex HAS been better than the last. Fair point, but the majorty of new codexes are better then previous codexes.

- Your post seems to indicate that you genuinely believe that anyone who is credited with writing a codex has sole and abosolute governance over its content. Well it does say written by X. Which implies that X had a fair amount of say into what goes into the codex. Sure you may have a few editors, or fact checkers but for the most part the writer writes what is in the codex.

- By your logic, Phil Kelly is at least as bad a codex writer because of Space Wolves; a codex that still stands competitively against Blood Angels and Grey Knights. Space wolves was pretty cheesy, but thats one codex. Matt Ward on the other hand, wrote Deamons of Choas, Codex Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angles, Codex Grey Knights, and the new Sisters Codex. All have had cheesy units and bad fluff or extreme mary sue fluff.
- You're implying that there are is a false dichotomy of people who are either 'against you' or 'with you'. You're completely writing off the people who have apparently caused themselves enough brain damage to believe genuinely that any given codex has the tools to be able to win against any other one, and that the game is just a little bit more balanced than every last Chicken Little would have you believe. Well yes we tend to ignore the people with brain damage. They don't really matter in this game, since they have brain damage. In fact since they have brain damage maybe they should see a doctor instead of posting on dakka, or playing wargames. Ask a sarcastic question get a sarcastic answer my friend.

Hey, I was serious about the last bit. Sometimes I feel like I'm either the sane guy in the nuthouse or the crazy guy everyone is trying to ignore. Since I can't tell, I err on the side of caution that I'm crazy. The corduroy trousers I'm wearing as a hat tend to agree with me.

The thing is, 3rd edition codexes are godawfulbad compared with 4th edition codexes. The 4th edition codexes are also, in turn, godawfulbad compared with the 5th edition codexes. There's very few 5th edition codexes that are honestly 'bad', except for Tyranids, and that's only because it's just so damn trendy to talk about how bad Tyranids are that I just can't help myself.

Something else to consider: 6th edition is coming. They're making changes, and surely have to be aware of a lot of those changes now. There's evidence in how a lot of trends have appeared lately. Non-independent characters running around on their own, psyker mastery levels, and a whole slew of special grenades? I think that 6th is going to pop out, and then a lot of the "balance issues" are going to be ironed out that way. But, again, that's just what my hat says.

Also, didn't Cruddace do Sisters? Are they really that cheesy?

daedalus wrote:They've an inability to buy storm shields.

Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. .

They don't need storm shields they have warding staffs, all you need is one per squad for the odd ball lascannon shot. On average even if it is a guard vet squad with 3 meltas only 2 will hit and wound, thats one save on a 4+ cover, or a 5+ invul, and the other goes on the staff 2+ invul. No weapon upgrads, what do you call S5 storm bolters, and thunder hammers, plus all the crazy grenades.

Nah. The peple who call Grey Knights cheese just don't know how to play. They are not that overpowered, altrough they are easy to play. With the right strategies, you can beat them easily. These people just show their own stupidity by disturbing your game and calling you a noob. If he had disturbed me like that he would have been busy removing my dreadknight from his ass even in the following morning.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
The thing is they are not like playing regular SM, yes they have the same armour but that is about where it ends. Between all of the 4+ cover, jump troops, LR and Storm Ravens you can't shoot them all. They will get to you, even if it is a few with hammer they are going to clean house in combat. Every model has a power weapon, the same can not be said for SM. At least agaisnt SM your guard will get a save most ot the time in combat, not the same against GK. Don't count on being able to stay nice and safe in those chimeras either, with hammer hand and thunder hammers they won't last long, that is if they are not plown away from all the S8 rifle men dreads, or S7 assault cannons. If the GK player has any clue what he is doing you will only get one turn with those meta guns anyway. They have a 12 inch range if you are shooting this turn he is assaulting you next turn. You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat. Its not at all like playing against SM.

GK get more 4+ cover, jump troops, Land Raiders and Stormravens than anyone else? I guess stormravens. Not everyone gets those. The thing is that the jump infantry that GK gets is actually pretty bad. I mean, at the end of the day, they only have one attack each. Sure, they have power weapons, but they also get about half the attacks. Concerning the dreadnoughts, all I have to say is that the game survived Long Fangs.

Your second to last statement confuses me:

You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat.

I am seriously confused with what army you are playing that two GK have wiped out a squad in combat? Which GK? You realize that GKSS only have one attack a piece right? Same thing with the jump infantry. They shouldn't be able to get more than 2 attacks on you on the charge. Have you actually read their codex? What army are you playing that you have so many problems with them? I'm really curious at this point, because it sounds like I must be playing mine severely wrong.

Some people will complain about anything that they think is better than what they have. It's not about challenge or fun to them, it's about WINNING, and if they don't win they throw a little temper tantrum.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

daedalus wrote:They've an inability to buy storm shields.

Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. .

They don't need storm shields they have warding staffs, all you need is one per squad for the odd ball lascannon shot. On average even if it is a guard vet squad with 3 meltas only 2 will hit and wound, thats one save on a 4+ cover, or a 5+ invul, and the other goes on the staff 2+ invul. No weapon upgrads, what do you call S5 storm bolters, and thunder hammers, plus all the crazy grenades.

Ah, I get it now. You just confirmed my theory. Do yourself a favor and borrow your friends codex, read it, and then roll it up and smack him on the head with it. You're getting taken for a ride. The 4++ sword save and the 2++ staff save only apply in melee. Beyond that, they have their regular invul save. Also, if they don't normally get an invul save, then the swords don't give them a 6++.

Doesn't the warding stave only work in CC too? Those melta/lascannon shots are still gonna hurt.

Infreak wrote:Doesn't the warding stave only work in CC too? Those melta/lascannon shots are still gonna hurt.

I'm pretty sure you're right, but I don't use staves in my army and I don't have my codex with me to check.

daedalus wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat.

I am seriously confused with what army you are playing that two GK have wiped out a squad in combat? Which GK? You realize that GKSS only have one attack a piece right? Same thing with the jump infantry. They shouldn't be able to get more than 2 attacks on you on the charge. Have you actually read their codex? What army are you playing that you have so many problems with them? I'm really curious at this point, because it sounds like I must be playing mine severely wrong.

Take a 10 man vet squad, the GK are first going to shoot with their S5 storm bolter hitting on 3 wounding on 2. That will kill probably 2 guardsmen, then they will assault, the justicar will have 2A base the Gk 1 so thats 5 on the assault w/hammerhand the will his on 3 wound on 2 killing three or four. So thats about 2 lost to shooting and lets even say 3 lost in combat, the GK was having an off day, the 5 guard left will do nothing in combat and the GK will win combat and kill them in the sweeping advance. Hence just 2 GK taking out a squad od guard. It has not happened to me, but I have seen it done to other IG players Eldar, DE, and my own Marines. I even saw an 8 man purifier squad whipe out a 10 terminator squad in combat after shooting before the assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nectarprime wrote:Some people will complain about anything that they think is better than what they have. It's not about challenge or fun to them, it's about WINNING, and if they don't win they throw a little temper tantrum.

I don't think that is the case at all. People don't mind loosing as long as they have a chance. There was never this much of a problem with SW or BA Ward just pushed things to the next level with GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nectarprime wrote:

Infreak wrote:Doesn't the warding stave only work in CC too? Those melta/lascannon shots are still gonna hurt.

I'm pretty sure you're right, but I don't use staves in my army and I don't have my codex with me to check.

If that is true I apologize I don't have my book infront of me, but they don’t even need that they are not paying that many points more than regular SM anyway

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

daedalus wrote:They've an inability to buy storm shields.

Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. .

They don't need storm shields they have warding staffs, all you need is one per squad for the odd ball lascannon shot. On average even if it is a guard vet squad with 3 meltas only 2 will hit and wound, thats one save on a 4+ cover, or a 5+ invul, and the other goes on the staff 2+ invul. No weapon upgrads, what do you call S5 storm bolters, and thunder hammers, plus all the crazy grenades.

Somebody needs to read a Codex I think....it's definitely a lot less good then you are making out. Far worse than storm shields.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Take a 10 man vet squad, the GK are first going to shoot with their S5 storm bolter hitting on 3 wounding on 2. That will kill probably 2 guardsmen, then they will assault, the justicar will have 2A base the Gk 1 so thats 5 on the assault w/hammerhand the will his on 3 wound on 2 killing three or four. So thats about 2 lost to shooting and lets even say 3 lost in combat, the GK was having an off day, the 5 guard left will do nothing in combat and the GK will win combat and kill them in the sweeping advance. Hence just 2 GK taking out a squad od guard. It has not happened to me, but I have seen it done to other IG players Eldar, DE, and my own Marines. I even saw an 8 man purifier squad whipe out a 10 terminator squad in combat after shooting before the assault.

How many GKSS are in this squad? How did they get across the table? Why are the vets outside of their transport? Generally when I play IG I have enough vehicles to overwhelm target priority for the most part. Also: Power blobs can devour GK. When I play against blobs, I typically run for my life shooting behind me wildly and hope I can wear them down enough before they get to me.

Finally, you're comparing a 100 (because they have no transport) point unit to what is at least 140 (assuming a psycannon, psybolt ammo, and a hammer). Also, there should be less GKSS in the squad because the vets should have fired at them well within the 12" range needed to assault.

Frankly, either way, I would hope a 140 point unit designed to be decent at everything would be able to beat a 100 point unit designed to be a monster anti-tank in melee combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

If that is true I apologize I don't have my book infront of me, but they don’t even need that they are not paying that many points more than regular SM anyway

Don't worry, I can confirm, staves don't work for shooting. Their cost is also variable depending upon what you put them on. They're seriously not worth it though.

Would my 2000 point list with only 2 LR, 1 LR Redeemer, 15 paladins and Draigo be called cheese?

nectarprime wrote:Would my 2000 point list with only 2 LR, 1 LR Redeemer, 15 paladins and Draigo be called cheese?

Against some lists it would be unstoppable, against others it might well get owned horribly.Is it cheese? No.
Is it a competitive borderline WAAC list? yes.

I wouldn't call it cheese. I'd actually maybe call it overkill. If you're going to transport them, I'd maybe consider downgrading the Paladins in that case to Terminators and then packing in two psyfileman vendreads. That'd be cheesy.

daedalus wrote:Finally, you're comparing a 100 (because they have no transport) point unit to what is at least 140 (assuming a psycannon, psybolt ammo, and a hammer). Also, there should be less GKSS in the squad because the vets should have fired at them well within the 12" range needed to assault.

Frankly, either way, I would hope a 140 point unit designed to be decent at everything would be able to beat a 100 point unit designed to be a monster anti-tank in melee combat.

If you see some to the lists I see with 4-6 riflemen dreads, along with psybacks, storm ravens toting S7 assault cannons, those chimeras will not make it very long. The 30 inch shunt, plus being jump infantry will cut down on the tuns you can shoot at them.

I am not saying they are unbeatable; personally I have never lost to them. I have won about 5 or 6 and tied once. The issue is they are so OTT that they are not fun to play against. Even if you win the game is so ridiculous that you don’t want to play against them unless you have to. I even remember the days of 4th Ed daemonet spam and noise marines, or mob orks with the old chappa rules, insane Khorne berserkers with chain axes and none of that was as much of a tooth cracker as GK.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

daedalus wrote:Finally, you're comparing a 100 (because they have no transport) point unit to what is at least 140 (assuming a psycannon, psybolt ammo, and a hammer). Also, there should be less GKSS in the squad because the vets should have fired at them well within the 12" range needed to assault.

Frankly, either way, I would hope a 140 point unit designed to be decent at everything would be able to beat a 100 point unit designed to be a monster anti-tank in melee combat.

If you see some to the lists I see with 4-6 riflemen dreads, along with psybacks, storm ravens toting S7 assault cannons, those chimeras will not make it very long. The 30 inch shunt, plus being jump infantry will cut down on the tuns you can shoot at them.

I am not saying they are unbeatable; personally I have never lost to them. I have won about 5 or 6 and tied once. The issue is they are so OTT that they are not fun to play against. Even if you win the game is so ridiculous that you don’t want to play against them unless you have to. I even remember the days of 4th Ed daemonet spam and noise marines, or mob orks with the old chappa rules, insane Khorne berserkers with chain axes and none of that was as much of a tooth cracker as GK.

Actually, I will back this.
Cheese or not, OP or not....ultimately, the GK netlists are incredibly boring to face. Hence I generally dont play against them, and since I don't play tournaments, that works well for me

daedalus wrote:Also, didn't Cruddace do Sisters? Are they really that cheesy?

Cruddace did the rules, Ward the fluff.

I haven't read the WD codex, but this is the first time I've heard anyone call them cheesy. People put me under the impression that the army was bad, lol.

Sisters arent bad they are just more "tactical"

Like Nids, crons, and daemons

Yeah, but all netlists are boring to play against. That's true if its razorspam, mechvets, tervigon spam, leafblower, or any list we can summarize in a single word.

daedalus wrote:Yeah, but all netlists are boring to play against. That's true if its razorspam, mechvets, tervigon spam, leafblower, or any list we can summarize in a single word.

True, I just personally find the GK ones even worse. I couldn't say why this is...maybe just soooo many of them.
I realise that may be unfair, but don't care.

if it's boring, i'm not wasting my time playing it

Being a player of armies such as eldar and brettonia (for fantasy), I know all about being OP. What I've found out while I steamrolled all my opponents is that there's very little point arguing with them on the matter. There is no build that cannot be beaten. So, what you do, it just sort of roll with the punches. For example, when I'm marching my guardians up the field slaughtering everything that stands, my opponent screams something along the lines of my units being "Over powered" and "let me see your army book". To this I respond, "I'm going to win this game and there's nothing you can do to stop me!" while laughing hysterically.

So yeah, just stomp face until they realize how to beat you.

The only time I ever call cheese is when I'm kidding. I know very well that if I had the chance I would probably do the same thing, and that every army has it's own variety of cheese.

I play Necrons, BTW

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
I am not saying they are unbeatable; personally I have never lost to them. I have won about 5 or 6 and tied once. The issue is they are so OTT

You have a logic failure here.

They're over the top powerful, but you've never lost to them? How can you claim both those things as true with good conscience?

I feel your pain on the cheese calling thing. It gets really annoying every time my tyrant uses paroxism, or when i make use of my deathleaper to nerf down libbies (TAKE THAT PSYCHIC HOODS!!!). One of the guys in my group started playing knights about a month ago. It took me a few games, but I found a reliable way to shut down pretty much his entire army. I outflank with two groups of genestealers, forcing his dreads/razorbacks into the center of the board. Then i take 2 groups of warriors and a tyrant and pretty much walk through everything he has. Paladins aren't so scary when you're getting 35 perfected enemy bonesword attacks on the charge, hitting/wounding on 3's. He then countered by using henchmen in a few games. Most people who play this game really don't get the strategic aspect of this game. Nearly every unit has a place in their army, and each can be devastating to the right opponent. All it takes is for them to think, which unfortunately is harder than them just raging over a unit or two. That being said, situations in which people cry cheese can be explained with two simple ideas;
1. Haters gonna hate
2. People are stupid

So keep playing the armies you like, and every once in a while field a weird list using units you'd normally never field. Makes it all the sweeter when you get walked on after everyone calls cheese on your army. Every once in a while a loss/tie can be a great thing to get the jerks off your back. If you're ballsy, I'd love to see a batrep using a crusader henchmen army.

P.S. I've never once had a person not say that the Doom is an absolutely rediculous unit, and that it should cost 3x what it does, or some such like that. I myself agree with them, and proceed to spirit leech their army away.

StarHunter25 wrote: I outflank with two groups of genestealers, forcing

I feel this should be a Tyranid tactica. Seriously.

daedalus wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote: I outflank with two groups of genestealers, forcing

I feel this should be a Tyranid tactica. Seriously.

They just want to hug you soooo badly . And nothing says hugs like 45 rending ones coming from behind... rending hugs... heh...

Oh man, I don't build a nid list without having at least 3 squads of Genestealers on it. They're expensive, but they get the job done, and they're fast too. I don't get the Tervispam that the netlists appear to insist upon, but now I fear this is getting offtopic.

My opinion has always been that if a person isn't playing a WAAC list, there's no reason why they shouldn't use units their codex provides if they want to. If you're playing for fun or to learn, then you might as well experience what your opponent can bring to bear against you.

On the other hand, GK are the only army against which I've felt I was out matched by the list rather than the player.

daedalus wrote:Oh man, I don't build a nid list without having at least 3 squads of Genestealers on it. They're expensive, but they get the job done, and they're fast too. I don't get the Tervispam that the netlists appear to insist upon, but now I fear this is getting offtopic.

And don't forget the Hive Guard. They will rape vehicles like no tomorrow.