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That's rather ungentlemanly of them, to put it lightly. I won't deny that there is undercosted units and annoying lists, but generally it's better to keep polite and civil to other players, because they just want fun too (even if their idea of fun is squashing your self respect).

Durza wrote:On the other hand, GK are the only army against which I've felt I was out matched by the list rather than the player.

This is the most succinct statement I have ever read/heard regarding the general 'loathing' for Gray Knights. I totally agree.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Durza wrote:On the other hand, GK are the only army against which I've felt I was out matched by the list rather than the player.

This is the most succinct statement I have ever read/heard regarding the general 'loathing' for Gray Knights. I totally agree.

2nd that. The thing that saves me most of the time is that my regular GK opponent looses track of the mission until it is too late for him

I don't belive in playing hard lists in friendly games. Not unless its practice for a tourny and we're both happy.

But if both players think its fun to play hard lists against each other there's no problem I guess

SlaveToDorkness wrote:"CHEESE!" Is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

This a million times. I played a SM player that would call cheese every single time I beat him with my Orks. Orks......... Like it was my fault he would bring non anti horde weapons and would set up to take out a mech army, when again, Im more horde style

It's clearly your fault for not loading up on battlewagons and trukks.

And for not having only grots in your army.

Where is the weakness in GK, and you can't say model count because they can have as many models as SM it all depends on the list a player takes. For a book as a whole were is the weakness?

Well firstly, if he is taking bodycount, my Ultramarines are cheaper, and I will have a lot more shooting by the time all is said and done. For every strike squad member I have a tactical marine and then some. For every purifier I have a sternguard. Tailoring lists works both ways. But, onto the problems with the codex.

Lack of widespread melta without coteaz. Generally the only platform I see with it as my Ultramarines stare over the field is going to be a stormraven. I use land raiders. Glancing the thing to death, or trying to hit a moving vehicle in CC are going to cut down his effectiveness greatly. He could attempt to rend it with a psycannon, but that usually kills his mobility for the duration or it gets his terminators in the open to be shot at. Either is good. Meanwhile, you have a hojillion options for effective AV against any vehicle he could bring. You just have to keep firing until the thing dies or is immobilized, rather than stunning. Play it like you would against Daemonic posession vehicles with CSM.

His infantry really do just die as fast as mine, faster in the case of terminators. Rapid fire and special weapons work just as well here as anywhere else. TH/SS tend to roll their terminators up like newspaper even without null zone and vulkan. Sternguard hitting a unit of purifiers with rapid fire tends to result in pain and screaming. A four plasmagun command squad will result in similar hilarity.

Another massive weakness is the army wide reliance-to-over reliance on psychic powers. Runes, Njall, Shadow in the warp, boardwide hoods, regular hoods well-placed, even weaken resolve, can suppress all those shiny things they can do nicely...or shut them down almost completely. Their fortitude can be stopped. Hammerhand, stopped. Shrouding. Might of titan. Sanctuary. Etc. are all things the opponent has a chance to completely nullify. How many GKs do YOU know that take extra armor on their LRs/SRs? Almost none of them? Hope they roll well on hood tests!

There is a whole laundry list of places where an army can hit the GKs, but frequently the dicussion stops at "But force weapons in CEE CEE!1!1one-eleventy." and it's a shock, primarily to an apparently sizable group of marine players who aren't used to things like "Don't charge into CC with these."

"CHEESE!" Is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

Thirded. I've even heard it applied to my Ultramarines. Recently. My general guideline is that if you are hearing this phrase applied to you by the onlookers, you are doing something correct and should do it Harder.

The amount of reading comprehension fail in this thread is hilarious.

Omegus wrote:The amount of reading comprehension fail in this thread is hilarious.

What did you say about my mother?

MATT WARD IS THE SKUB GOD??!!

This revelation must be spread!

to the OP, peopel will always be like that. heck I've played fun games with fluff lists and if they do well either the opponent or firends of the opponent will say it a cheese'overpowered list... hell I like to do shooting orks alot and it gets called cheese/overpowered when I roll well, btu the randomness of 45 lootas and 2 SAG eman I'll do well or do bad but have fun... but one thing a list like that is not... is cheesy

just roll with it, as long as you're using a legit list using a legit codex then there's no room for complaints. sure some things are overpowered ( /growl a JotWW snipign out my nob making my boyz useless) but most of those type of things are jsut what you have to deal with, makes things mroe challenging and rewarding if a win is pulled out

OP, man that sucks. What a bunch of dorks. Civility is truly dead.

MaxDamage wrote:OP, man that sucks. What a bunch of dorks. Civility is truly dead.

Yeah, I agree, that is pretty bad form. I mean, what are they, a pack of 12 y-o?

I don't get two things in this thread

A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did

B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame

...so a new codex comes out, its different than the old one, provides new challenges, and gives old lists that were successful a real headache... and this is bad?!!

COME ON!! Strap on the thinking cap and your balls and figure out a way to beat it. If your list was beaten by his list rather than his tactics... maybe your favorite little army needs to evolve a little now.

Once I read through the GK codex, understood it as well (if not better) than my opponents, and I didn't have to ask what did what... they fell into the SM level of codex (solid, but very beatable). I hate to say it... but if your losing to a new dex when it comes out, that's good for the hobby (otherwise, why bother having new codices). If you're still losing to a new codex 6 months after its come out... its not the codex any more, its you and your sad little outdated army list.

Yep, even though I still run Nob Bikers in every friendly game I play against every army except Gray Knights, I don't run Nob Bikers at Tournaments any more. Though it did change my style of play and tactics, at least I have 600 points to move into more tournament vital units. This is probably how the massed cavalry charge felt about machine guns.

daedalus wrote:It's clearly your fault for not loading up on battlewagons and trukks.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:And for not having only grots in your army.

Well yea clearly! It reminds me of a battle rep I read on the internet once. Way back when APOC first started, and not everyone had a titan sitting in their garage this takes place. A fellow Ork player took his army to an APOC tourny with a gamble, he wanted to to field a HORDE Ork force against what he hoped was armies with super strong titan busters and lascannons, because those would do dick against all the Orks he brought. He knew if he faced an actual Titan, he was screwed.

So away he went, and ended up winning the whole competition because he got lucky and only faced armies with anti titan weapons Just FLOODED his opponents with boyz


*point was, taking an all comers is why all comer lists are the best lol

Lobukia wrote:I don't get two things in this thread

A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did

B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame

...so a new codex comes out, its different than the old one, provides new challenges, and gives old lists that were successful a real headache... and this is bad?!!

COME ON!! Strap on the thinking cap and your balls and figure out a way to beat it. If your list was beaten by his list rather than his tactics... maybe your favorite little army needs to evolve a little now.

Once I read through the GK codex, understood it as well (if not better) than my opponents, and I didn't have to ask what did what... they fell into the SM level of codex (solid, but very beatable). I hate to say it... but if your losing to a new dex when it comes out, that's good for the hobby (otherwise, why bother having new codices). If you're still losing to a new codex 6 months after its come out... its not the codex any more, its you and your sad little outdated army list.

To clarify, my GK experience was a week after the codex came out, against a player who wouldn't let me read it.

"He's playing Grey Knights! C'mon fellas! A lynch is a cinch!" (what a bunch of ers) Sod them, you find a club with some decent/non cheese calling players mate.

Politeness costs nothing.

However, in response, I would have given the chap a few harsh words and then ignored him.

Durza wrote:

Lobukia wrote:I don't get two things in this thread

A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did

B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame

...so a new codex comes out, its different than the old one, provides new challenges, and gives old lists that were successful a real headache... and this is bad?!!

COME ON!! Strap on the thinking cap and your balls and figure out a way to beat it. If your list was beaten by his list rather than his tactics... maybe your favorite little army needs to evolve a little now.

Once I read through the GK codex, understood it as well (if not better) than my opponents, and I didn't have to ask what did what... they fell into the SM level of codex (solid, but very beatable). I hate to say it... but if your losing to a new dex when it comes out, that's good for the hobby (otherwise, why bother having new codices). If you're still losing to a new codex 6 months after its come out... its not the codex any more, its you and your sad little outdated army list.

To clarify, my GK experience was a week after the codex came out, against a player who wouldn't let me read it.

Now see, to me thats a cheat right there, even if the guy was being on the up and up. You should never, not be allowed to see a codex and how a rule/unit works. Ive asked people to show me a couple times, because sometimes rules just sound fishy. Perfect example is the ATSKNF rule. To a xenos player, that sounds at first, like a completely made up rule

Lobukia wrote:I don't get two things in this thread

A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did

i'm an old member of the club (as is he), i'm used to some of the idiots there complaining endlessly, and honestly i have better things to do, i enjoy my hobby, why rise to the bait and let them ruin it. The guy is now well aware that if his hostile behaviour carries on he's gonna get more than a casual "get lost"

B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame

This. i'll regularly test tourney lists in friendly games, and i'll freely admit i take the gaming side of the hobby as preference to the painting/modelling side. But i think most consderate gamers (lets be honest the win-at-all-costers, and the arrogant poor playing cheese shouters are in the minority, just draw the most attention) recognise when someone if playing a fluffy list, or playing something silly for giggles, and adapt their own list/playing style to accommodate, ofc when the tournaments come the gloves come off. i wouldn't play this game if it wasn't challenging (i guess some may argue this hence the rise in popularity for warmachine).


Also some are asking wether this guy is 12yrs or something, he is in his late 50's, just had his hip replacement and should know better.

Kinsella wrote:
Also some are asking wether this guy is 12yrs or something, he is in his late 50's, just had his hip replacement and should know better.

Classy. There's only one just response to such buffoonery.




Joking aside, you behaved in the most restrained manner possible under the circumstances, as did your DE friend. Maybe you should buy your critic a ball gag?

I'd be lying if I said I'm immune to a bit of Ward hating from time to time but ultimately its a game. If I turn up and my opponent has a tricked out Tournie juggernaught and I've thought it would be fun to give my Rough Riders and Ratlings a day out, I'm not going to call cheese and take my toys home in a sulk. I'll probably get beaten but hey, last time I checked its mainly about having fun.

Also I have an uncanny ability to beat hardcore lists by using my fluff armies in the most inappropriate manner to the opponent's confusion and steadily increasing rage. But that's neither here nor there.

I think the only thing that is true cheese, but completely unforseen by GW are the Runes of Warding. 15pts to completely neuter almost every race's abilities. Mephiston isn't so scary when he can't fly any more.

Ofc the main victim of runes of warding are GK . . . so I suppose they kinda deserve that from Eldar.


On a side not, I feel that Eldar's guide should re-roll to hit in CC as well.

"almost every races abilities"? Really?!

maybe "A few race's single models and one entire arm but not a damn thing for a few armies".

Most of the people who cry cheese usually suck.

There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.

I don't really find many cheesey units in this game since there are tactics to get around the tough stuff. You notice people aren't scared of nob bikers or TWC anymore?

I would think GK would have a harder time against DE, I thought poison shots just ripped GK a new one?

Anyway, next time people call cheese to you're face (if it happened once it will happen again) just go up to them..smile...and say "haters gonna hate"

Not really, 4+ poison is basically just S4 against T4, which means it's about as scary as bolters are. Compare that with an army that can take upgrades to go on I6 and that has basic weapons with the ability to glance a vehicle (and penetrate if you have an upgrade), it's easy to understand why DE vs GK feels like having the deck stacked against the DE player.

I have a feeling that people always will struggle against the new codex's especially ones where the lists are different in some way or another just because they arnt used to playing the new codex its a case of finding ways to beat an army rather than simply calling cheese.

The Law of Cheese: the amount someone calls cheese on other armies is inversely proportional to their own skills as a player.