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That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that 40K is far from the most balanced game out there.

And game balance is not related to how fun or popular games are.

DarknessEternal wrote:And game balance is not related to how fun or popular games are.

Game balance does relate to fun when the game is meant to be open to the player's choices and abilities, yet there are a few top tier armies that are just better.

While at GW and sitting with a friend talking a small idiotic kid came over and asked;

"Are you the guys who plays Chaos? "

I answered Chaos Daemons and Chaos marines and he went onto say that Chaos Daemons are so ultra over powered without providing any real aurgument exept that they have 'unfair armour saves'. I told him he was a twit and quite stupid for approaching people only to start arguments and told him to shout at his friends who are only inches away from each other.

Lol

Daemons, overpowered

Grey Templar wrote:Lol

Daemons, overpowered

Yep, a for that kid.

DarknessEternal wrote:And game balance is not related to how fun or popular games are.

It is most certainly related to how fun a game is, especially when two players find themselves on the opposite ends of the balance spectrum.

Grey Templar wrote:Lol

Daemons, overpowered

lol
If this is 7th ed fantasy it'd be true, but wow

On the subject matter, after playing all the supposedly more balanced game like warmachine and FoW, I find that they are not really that much better than 40K.
It annoys more when the players of the said game get all high and mighty about how their game of toy soldier is more better than yours.
Guess its people like that makes me not want to play Warmachine, well, that and the ridiculous 80 bucks bane thralls.

Grey Templar wrote:Lol

Daemons, overpowered

It's the current 3rd edition necrons that are over powered remember....always getting back up after they die and all....

bombboy1252 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Lol

Daemons, overpowered

It's the current 3rd edition necrons that are over powered remember....always getting back up after they die and all....

Yea and they can take various overpowered items that makes it better! WTH!
Not to mention those AV14 all around indestructible flying pyramids.

blood reaper wrote:While at GW and sitting with a friend talking a small idiotic kid came over and asked;

"Are you the guys who plays Chaos? "

I answered Chaos Daemons and Chaos marines and he went onto say that Chaos Daemons are so ultra over powered without providing any real aurgument exept that they have 'unfair armour saves'. I told him he was a twit and quite stupid for approaching people only to start arguments and told him to shout at his friends who are only inches away from each other.

Did he say why their armour saves were unfair, or was it just 'only Ultramarines can have a 3+'?

No, but he does play Sphees marhens and I told him if Daemons where overpowered then marines where, he's one of the kids who have tons of Space Marine models and play massive battles where they pile their own models on each side of the table and scream at each other when one decides the other cheated.

The ravening hordes... Well, not much you can do but ignore him. Or point out the reasons why Chaos being OP would mean the majority of other armies are gods descended to fight mortals.

I get called cheesy whenever I run genestealers in my Tyranid army...

Some mental scars just don't ever heal...

Durza wrote:The ravening hordes... Well, not much you can do but ignore him. Or point out the reasons why Chaos being OP would mean the majority of other armies are gods descended to fight mortals.

Yes, if Chaos Daemons where overpowered then Space Marines are Space Gods with ultra super awesome powers granted by their amazing overlord Mat Ward.

Omegus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:And game balance is not related to how fun or popular games are.

It is most certainly related to how fun a game is, especially when two players find themselves on the opposite ends of the balance spectrum.

Really? Not even chess is a balanced game.

DarknessEternal wrote:Not even chess is a balanced game.

How is chess not balanced Both sides play with the exact same thing.

I think the idea is that army to army balance is important. Not gretchin to ghazzy balance.

haendas wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Not even chess is a balanced game.

How is chess not balanced Both sides play with the exact same thing.

I think the idea is that army to army balance is important. Not gretchin to ghazzy balance.

White ALWAYS goes first.

given 2 equally matched players, the white player should win more often.


Its actually unbalanced to the point where tournament players will actually play to a draw if they are black and won't even attempt to win.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Really? Not even chess is a balanced game.

That would explain why I find chess so boring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:The Law of Cheese: the amount someone calls cheese on other armies is inversely proportional to their own skills as a player.

With some exceptions. I never call cheese, and I lose almost every game I take part in.

ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.

I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...

UltraPrime wrote:

ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.

I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...

Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:

ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.

I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...

Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.

i assume the IC(with a jump pack or wings or even with a bike) leaves the unit in question moves his 12" in front of the unit than joins the unit again at the end of the movement phase since there is no restriction about when to leave units for IC s. But this will only get you 2"+the base size of the IC as a bonus since you actually have to have coherency

pizzaguardian wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:

ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.

I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...

Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.

i assume the IC(with a jump pack or wings or even with a bike) leaves the unit in question moves his 12" in front of the unit than joins the unit again at the end of the movement phase since there is no restriction about when to leave units for IC s. But this will only get you 2"+the base size of the IC as a bonus since you actually have to have coherency

...I don't think it works like that.
I'm pretty sure you can't leave and join in the same unit in the same turn.

I'm one of those people who'll tell you that 90% of the game is strategy, that the better player, or the one who makes the least mistakes, will win the vast majority of the time, regardless of codex, army list, or dice. I'm also one of those people who'll tell you that GK are grotesquely overpowered. The problem, and what so many people seem to overlook, is that they don't actually PAY for the abilities they receive. A standard MEQ will run you around 16pts. A power weapon; another 15. A storm bolter about 5. Upgrade said MEQ to a psyker, and we can probably tack on another 5pts. Add a second psychic power, maybe a point or two. Grant said psyker the ability to activate its force weapon at one time with the rest of its unit, making only one perils of the warp test, maybe another 2 or 3. A grand total of 39-41pts. How a GK strike squad model costs only twenty is beyond me. A discount is in order, obviously, considering that these upgrades are non-optional, so let's call 35pts a fair price. I'm fully aware of the fact that every codex has access to very (even unfairly) cost efficient models. This alone WOULD balance out the example I've just given, but no other codex I've seen runs an entire army of vastly under-priced units.

Most of the balancing factors that people attribute to the GK Codex are ones that apply specifically to lists that are either poorly built, or to an issue of neglect or play style choice. I've heard people claim That GK lacks long-range fire support. They actually have access to what might be, arguably, the single best long-range fire support unit in the game. VenDread Psyflenauts. I've heard people claim that GK doesn't have access to a lot of tank-busting units. Honestly, the codex gives you access to some of the cheapest, most efficient tank busting gear I've yet to see, albeit a short-range one. If you're not running a 25pt Inquisitor as a second HQ choice with an eleven-man melta-gun wielding warrior acolyte squad in a twelve capacity armor 12 transport with six fire points at 55pts, then you have no one to blame but yourself for a lack of tank-cracking units. (I'm pretty sure with servitors, you can run 3 MMs and 3 meltaguns. With I don't know, maybe eight meltabombs? Correct me if I'm wrong) Not to say that it's always the RIGHT choice, just that it IS a choice.

I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.

My point is this: if at any point, my opponent is running close to 750 more points (or more) of upgrades than I am, without actually having to PAY for them, there's a balancing factor issue there. I wouldn't play a game at 2000pts vs. 2750pts without getting a little snarky. Nor would I play a game of Space Wolves VS. Space Wolves where I have to buy my missile launchers and my opponent doesn't. And if I was about to sit down for a game with a buddy and this conversation happens, I'd crap my underwear:

"Hey, do you mind if I give my entire sternguard squad a power weapon?"
"Umm...I guess not. What do they cost?"
"About 15pts. each."
"Well, yeah, sure, okay. Just pay 150pts and we'll say your whole squad has power weapons. No biggie."
"Well, no I wasn't actually going to pay for them. Can't I just take them?"
"No."
"Matt Ward says I can, so F%^$ you."






Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH, but yeah, those guys were jerks. Jerky cheese-callers.

Magpiesouth wrote:I'm one of those people who'll tell you that 90% of the game is strategy, that the better player, or the one who makes the least mistakes, will win the vast majority of the time, regardless of codex, army list, or dice. I'm also one of those people who'll tell you that GK are grotesquely overpowered. The problem, and what so many people seem to overlook, is that they don't actually PAY for the abilities they receive. A standard MEQ will run you around 16pts. A power weapon; another 15. A storm bolter about 5. Upgrade said MEQ to a psyker, and we can probably tack on another 5pts. Add a second psychic power, maybe a point or two. Grant said psyker the ability to activate its force weapon at one time with the rest of its unit, making only one perils of the warp test, maybe another 2 or 3. A grand total of 39-41pts. How a GK strike squad model costs only twenty is beyond me. A discount is in order, obviously, considering that these upgrades are non-optional, so let's call 35pts a fair price. I'm fully aware of the fact that every codex has access to very (even unfairly) cost efficient models. This alone WOULD balance out the example I've just given, but no other codex I've seen runs an entire army of vastly under-priced units.

Most of the balancing factors that people attribute to the GK Codex are ones that apply specifically to lists that are either poorly built, or to an issue of neglect or play style choice. I've heard people claim That GK lacks long-range fire support. They actually have access to what might be, arguably, the single best long-range fire support unit in the game. VenDread Psyflenauts. I've heard people claim that GK doesn't have access to a lot of tank-busting units. Honestly, the codex gives you access to some of the cheapest, most efficient tank busting gear I've yet to see, albeit a short-range one. If you're not running a 25pt Inquisitor as a second HQ choice with an eleven-man melta-gun wielding warrior acolyte squad in a twelve capacity armor 12 transport with six fire points at 55pts, then you have no one to blame but yourself for a lack of tank-cracking units. (I'm pretty sure with servitors, you can run 3 MMs and 3 meltaguns. With I don't know, maybe eight meltabombs? Correct me if I'm wrong) Not to say that it's always the RIGHT choice, just that it IS a choice.

I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.

My point is this: if at any point, my opponent is running close to 750 more points (or more) of upgrades than I am, without actually having to PAY for them, there's a balancing factor issue there. I wouldn't play a game at 2000pts vs. 2750pts without getting a little snarky. Nor would I play a game of Space Wolves VS. Space Wolves where I have to buy my missile launchers and my opponent doesn't. And if I was about to sit down for a game with a buddy and this conversation happens, I'd crap my underwear:

"Hey, do you mind if I give my entire sternguard squad a power weapon?"
"Umm...I guess not. What do they cost?"
"About 15pts. each."
"Well, yeah, sure, okay. Just pay 150pts and we'll say your whole squad has power weapons. No biggie."
"Well, no I wasn't actually going to pay for them. Can't I just take them?"
"No."
"Matt Ward says I can, so F%^$ you."






Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH, but yeah, those guys were jerks. Jerky cheese-callers.

funny to actually read something like this. so i assume the regular MEQ shouldnt be able to take any predators, vindicators ,whirlwinds and even drop pods or lets take the chimera out of IG .
I admit that the new gk is overpowered when you face it vs a single marine to marine basis. But you shouldnt expect people to clap your logic with the idea of inquistorial henchmen melta spam which always has the problem of getting across the table or all those psychic powers are simply nullified by a librarian on the opposite side.
Note: I am not here to say the GK isn't overpowered i even have a list of 16 psycannons in a 1500 point army ready to go. But please don't compare one unit vs one unit. Unless its land raiders or sth since i agree on fortitude being complete bs. Really 5 points and you ignore all 1 and 2 s in dmg table? (assuming there is no psychic hood or eldar on the other side)

Didn't mean to compare single units. I meant to point out that the existence of those units means that the codex as a whole is not lacking in what said units do.

well it certainly felt like when you made a grey knight worth 40 points...
and even when you compare 2k vs 2750 it comes up from single unit comparisons like gk and meltaguns

and can you open this sentence "I meant to point out that the existence of those units means that the codex as a whole is not lacking in what said units do." I honestly don't think i understand it well. There is no troll intended

Magpiesouth wrote:
I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.

Really you don't. Shouldn't better strategy, tactics, and forethought be the ONLY reason someone win so called "tactical" game. It funny how the Necron player at my LGS never lost with them. Even vs. netlist (sure the netlisters are 15 years old or less), but if the amry of the month is so overpowered how could this be.


P.S. So my point isn't missed. Don't blame the codex, Change your game up.

pizzaguardian wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:

ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.

I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...

Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.

i assume the IC(with a jump pack or wings or even with a bike) leaves the unit in question moves his 12" in front of the unit than joins the unit again at the end of the movement phase since there is no restriction about when to leave units for IC s. But this will only get you 2"+the base size of the IC as a bonus since you actually have to have coherency

It doesn't work like that. You can only leave or join a unit at the end of the movement phase.

you can only join a unit at the end of the movement phase yes , but it doesn't prevent it from leaving the unit whenever he wants.