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So the other night i'm playing at my games club and this dude playing behind me kept commenting on my game (i was playing grey knights, my mate was playing dark elfdar), its quite common for spectators where we play, and people always comment and banter. This dude sat there quiet as a mouse whilst my mate deployed, then came my turn he stood just over my shoulder letting out the largest sigh every time a razorback or dread came onto the table (3000 points - it was a lot of sighs), so the game progressed, i have to ask him several times to stop giving my opponent advice (my opponent is in no way inexperienced), then on the second turn he goes livid, i kill a couple raiders and take out his incusbus squad and a fair amount of wytches (good turn but nothing major) he flips out and doesn't stop for an hour about how cheesy grey knights are.
So anyways when he starts its just him, but ofc people begin joining the bandwagon, everytime i do something it provokes more and more outrage (force weapon something, cleansing flame, heroic sacrifice etc etc) by about the forth turn there is a mob of about 6 guys stood round cheering everytime a grey knight model hits the dust, booing everytime i do something. My mate eventually told them to get lost/shut up etc, but I left that night looking like a complete donkey-cave, whilst someone actually offered my mate a drink as a "runners up prize".

Now i know this is a very unique incident. But in your experience who are the biggest cheese callers?

So far i have found it is the people who are incapable of making a competitive list, and will only play against other poor lists or weak armies. I offered the guy a match the next day on our forum (he plays gunline guard, and mechspam blood angels) he refused, unless i played my orks.

Is cheese calling justified in the majority of cases (bring 8 units with warp quake against daemons is i know) or is it just a case of bad losers hating?

The kind of people who play warhammer are not known for their social skills. Whether or not Grey Knights are cheese is irrelavent, they should have the good grace to be polite.

A lot of the time? If it's not a WAAC list or one pinched from the internet, then it's a case of soreloseritis. 40k Is about facing challenges and adapting, if they stubbornly want to keep playing the same list and demand that you change yours, then they're simply being arseholes.

If you'll read what OP actually put, you'll notice his opponant was perfectly civilised throughout, it was other players that were the problem.

"CHEESE!" Is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

Joey wrote:If you'll read what OP actually put, you'll notice his opponant was perfectly civilised throughout, it was other players that were the problem.

And if you read what the OP actually put, you'll notice that later on, a gunline guard and mechspam BA player refused to play his GKs.

My point stands.

Depends really.

I'm not a competitive player, which I freely admit (not in 40K anyway, i don't think the game is balanced enough for it, so play WM/Hordes for my tournament game).

So, when playing 40K, I generally ask if it's somebody I don't know whether they are playing a tournament, WAAC or optimised list. If they are, i'll either play them for fun anyway and see how I do with my silly fluff lists, or politley decline, depending on my mood.

However, the point is that a bit of communication SHOULD in theory remove any issues between the two players, who are really all that matter. As long as people don't lie about it in order to somehow make themselves feel better when their WAAC netlist crushes your painstakingly accurate and rather feeble pre-heresy foot marines (yep...my poor dudes :(), it's fine.

Sadly, as somebody pointed out, many Warhammer players are seriously lacking in social skills, and on top of being deeply obnoxious, love to jump onto the bandwagon. This is one reason I don't play at stores much (the other being if one more horrific teenage scumbag picks up my stuff without asking, i'll end up jail).

At the end of the day, as long as you and the opponent are having fun, nothing else is really relevant, especially the opinions of a bunch of howler monkey retards around the table. Ideally, you and your opponent should both tell them to sod off and take a shower (they probably smell, this kind usually does).

No idea where my point is now....I think it's "Have fun, let your opponent have fun, talk before hand, and sod the morons".

Like it says in Grey Templar's signature, I've waited 12 years for the damned codex. It better be fething cheese.

Personally, I wouldn't have said anything. I would have thunderstomped him into the ground, as hard as I could. I would have done everything I could to make sure there was not a model left on the table by the time I was done. Afterwards, I would have said, in the flatest tone possible, "What do you know, I guess they are cheesy. Huh." And then I would have found a game with someone who wasn't a part of the mob of tools.

For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.

I don't believe entirely in cheese, and while I prefer to see lists designed for fluff or not made to be hyper-competitive, I don't even mind people giving a player advice if there is a REAL disadvantage, however, it is extremely rude to stand by a table calling cheese on everything you do, and you should ask said players not to spectate on your game if they cannot behave appropriately.

daedalus wrote:Personally, I wouldn't have said anything. I would have thunderstomped him into the ground, as hard as I could. I would have done everything I could to make sure there was not a model left on the table by the time I was done. Afterwards, I would have said, in the flatest tone possible, "What do you know, I guess they are cheesy. Huh." And then I would have found a game with someone who wasn't a part of the mob of tools.

For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.

Again:
His opponent never said they were cheesy. He was entirely polite and civilised.

So your response would seem a little our of order....

Harrower wrote:

daedalus wrote:Personally, I wouldn't have said anything. I would have thunderstomped him into the ground, as hard as I could. I would have done everything I could to make sure there was not a model left on the table by the time I was done. Afterwards, I would have said, in the flatest tone possible, "What do you know, I guess they are cheesy. Huh." And then I would have found a game with someone who wasn't a part of the mob of tools.

For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.

Again:
His opponent never said they were cheesy. He was entirely polite and civilised.

So your response would seem a little our of order....

As previously stated, his opponent was not the problem, in fact his opponent told off the trouble makers, it was spectators who caused the issue.

daedalus wrote:
For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.

So, they're just like every other codex released for the past 18 or so years.

Remember when Orks or Tau were crazy good?

I once tabled a BA spam list (at least 6 razorbacks) with pretty average Eldar list (2 prisms, 3x10 man avenger units in wave serpents + farseer).

Afterwards the guy I was playing started to said "there was nothing I could do, your list was really cheesey", I laughed at how hypocritical he was being and walked away. I haven't played him again since

I would have just picked up my stuff and never played at that club again. Talk about a group of just immature sore losers. GK aren't OP obviously people are too dumb to learn that they die just like any other MEQ.
Just take it in stride and when the next codex comes out just get ready for more people bandwagoning.

It defiantly shows that the guy is a poor sportsman, however I think it is a sign of what GW has done to the game. I have seen this kind of thing more and more on forums and in stores, though certainly not to this level. I think it is just peoples growing frustration with how OTT the most of the latest books are, i.e. SW, BA, and GK. GK are probably the worst culprit of this. I remember seeing stuff like this when fantasy Daemons came out at the end of 7th. People are getting tired of putting out hundreds of dollars and countless hours into armies only to be blown off the table by Matt Ward’s latest steam roller book. Marines in general have always been a safe point and click option, but GK do this to the extreme and have no draw backs. The guy is an A%$ for interfering in someone else’s game, but I think it is something you may have to be prepared for, people are getting pissed off. Stores and clubs are starting to split into camps, the Ward fans and everyone else. As wrong as his actions were he is obviously not alone in his opinions if others were joining in. Though the most ironic part is that he is a BA player.

Ah, my apologies, for some reason, I had conflated the situation into there being "the sighing Dude (who was playing)", "OP's friend (who was part of another game)", and "the angry mob". Rereading it, I understand my source of confusion and the correct interpretation.

I get irrationally pissed off when people 'call cheese'. I mean, it doesn't add value to the game, and it doesn't actually repair their bruised egos, and there's really just no point in it. I've had opponents whine about how stupid crazy cheesy my army is while they're WINNING. I'm honestly not sure what I would do in a circumstance when it's a bunch of people who have zero vested interest in the game.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Remember when Orks or Tau were crazy good?

Orks stopped being good? They still regularly win at Adepticon.


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Something else I've noticed is that I get much less whining about GK when I bust out the metal guys compared when when I run an all plastic army. I've intentionally chose different percentages of metal vs. plastic to see if I get a different response.

Whats the problem with Tau? i always have trouble with them.

From my experience the ones to call cheese the fastest are the least skilled. The reason OP probably got the worst of it was the GK are the newest book out, a few months back and they'd likely do the same for the DE player.

This used to happen to me when I used my Eldar (hybrid, some mobile units back by a block of guardians to hold the home base. I'm by no means a competitive player, I use what looks cool as long as it isn't entirely worthless (*cough*swooping hawks, such cool models such poor performance*cough*)), the same guy would generally give out tips to whatever my opponent was at the time, whether it be stealer spam (with the last codex) or blue Iron Warrors (full mech, razorback spam vanilla marines). My friends and I stopped going to that store and found a better one instead, though it did help to ignore them. Better yet when they say they made a cheesy list to defeat you, then get stomped instead.

300 would have been a pretty stupid movie if the Spartans got to have as many guys as cause they called cheese.

40k is all about the against all odds, no matter what, DEATH OR GLORY! If my opponent is running a super hyper competitive list, I'm at the advantage. A loss for me is expected, a tie is a win for me, and Winning is all the sweeter because it was my victory during the game.

Jollydevil wrote:Whats the problem with Tau? i always have trouble with them.

Same. My friend plays Tau and I have never EVER beaten him. I guess that's more of a testament to our relative skills at the game rather than the armies.

As a guard player i'm still upset the grey knights can out tactical genius creed, the tactical genius... lol

Jokes aside, it comes down to codex creep imo. It seems every codex tries to be a bit better then the last. And i'll call cheese on any cheesy thing, including my own codex, heres looking at you meltavet spam, or vendettas. Just not at the table. Every codex has a cheesy unit or three, however it just seems that anything matt touches becomes super cheesy. Dare i say, dangerously cheesy (sorry eating some cheetos and saw it.) Matts just a horrible codex writer. And i happen to agree with Mr. S. Baldrick, camps are being formed, matt ward supporters, and everyone else.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As a guard player i'm still upset the grey knights can out tactical genius creed, the tactical genius... lol

Jokes aside, it comes down to codex creep imo. It seems every codex tries to be a bit better then the last. And i'll call cheese on any cheesy thing, including my own codex, heres looking at you meltavet spam, or vendettas. Just not at the table. Every codex has a cheesy unit or three, however it just seems that anything matt touches becomes super cheesy. Dare i say, dangerously cheesy (sorry eating some cheetos and saw it.) Matts just a horrible codex writer. And i happen to agree with Mr. S. Baldrick, camps are being formed, matt ward supporters, and everyone else.

I have a few things about your post that bother me:

- Not every codex HAS been better than the last.

- Your post seems to indicate that you genuinely believe that anyone who is credited with writing a codex has sole and abosolute governance over its content.

- By your logic, Phil Kelly is at least as bad a codex writer because of Space Wolves; a codex that still stands competitively against Blood Angels and Grey Knights.

- You're implying that there are is a false dichotomy of people who are either 'against you' or 'with you'. You're completely writing off the people who have apparently caused themselves enough brain damage to believe genuinely that any given codex has the tools to be able to win against any other one, and that the game is just a little bit more balanced than every last Chicken Little would have you believe.

I would have (verbally) laid into that guy. I can't stand people like that. I have an absolute zero tolerance for behaviour of that kind.

I reserve cheese to list-tailoring and bending of the rules in beardy ways. I once thought certain armies were cheesy, but everything has its weakness.

Blacksails wrote:I would have (verbally) laid into that guy. I can't stand people like that. I have an absolute zero tolerance for behaviour of that kind.

I reserve cheese to list-tailoring and bending of the rules in beardy ways. I once thought certain armies were cheesy, but everything has its weakness.

Where is the weakness in GK, and you can't say model count because they can have as many models as SM it all depends on the list a player takes. For a book as a whole were is the weakness?

They die like Space Marines. Still a bunch of expensive power armoured models in AV11 tanks. My executioners, demolishers, battlecannons, mulitlasers, plasma guns and meltaguns kill them just as easily as they did other marines. In close combat, my vets die the same way they did before, only now its faster.

Its a good dex, but not stupid overpowered that we should stop playing 40k unless you play GK.

daedalus wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As a guard player i'm still upset the grey knights can out tactical genius creed, the tactical genius... lol

Jokes aside, it comes down to codex creep imo. It seems every codex tries to be a bit better then the last. And i'll call cheese on any cheesy thing, including my own codex, heres looking at you meltavet spam, or vendettas. Just not at the table. Every codex has a cheesy unit or three, however it just seems that anything matt touches becomes super cheesy. Dare i say, dangerously cheesy (sorry eating some cheetos and saw it.) Matts just a horrible codex writer. And i happen to agree with Mr. S. Baldrick, camps are being formed, matt ward supporters, and everyone else.

I have a few things about your post that bother me:

- Not every codex HAS been better than the last. Fair point, but the majorty of new codexes are better then previous codexes.

- Your post seems to indicate that you genuinely believe that anyone who is credited with writing a codex has sole and abosolute governance over its content. Well it does say written by X. Which implies that X had a fair amount of say into what goes into the codex. Sure you may have a few editors, or fact checkers but for the most part the writer writes what is in the codex.

- By your logic, Phil Kelly is at least as bad a codex writer because of Space Wolves; a codex that still stands competitively against Blood Angels and Grey Knights. Space wolves was pretty cheesy, but thats one codex. Matt Ward on the other hand, wrote Deamons of Choas, Codex Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angles, Codex Grey Knights, and the new Sisters Codex. All have had cheesy units and bad fluff or extreme mary sue fluff.
- You're implying that there are is a false dichotomy of people who are either 'against you' or 'with you'. You're completely writing off the people who have apparently caused themselves enough brain damage to believe genuinely that any given codex has the tools to be able to win against any other one, and that the game is just a little bit more balanced than every last Chicken Little would have you believe. Well yes we tend to ignore the people with brain damage. They dont really matter in this game, since they have brain damage. In fact since they have brain damage maybe they should see a doctor instead of posting on dakka, or playing wargames. Ask a sarcastic question get a sarcastic answer my friend.

I said i aggred with Mr. S. Baldrick, when he said "Stores and clubs are starting to split into camps, the Ward fans and everyone else." Which is something thats happening at my store.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Where is the weakness in GK, and you can't say model count because they can have as many models as SM it all depends on the list a player takes. For a book as a whole were is the weakness?

Agreed

@OP the cheesecallers were pretty much displaying school yard bullying. How old is he?

Low model count. Still said it, because it's still true. They pay more for a 3+ save than anyone else does. They've an inability to buy storm shields.

Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. They cost 125% more than a tac squad marine does. That means that, per 1000 points worth of GK bodies, SM have spent only 800 points for the same amount. That's a low model count. Maybe not as low as you would prefer, but that doesn't make it any less true. That's for strike squads. The point only becomes that much more pronounced in Terminators, Paladins, or Purifiers.

Their weakness? Anything that is a weakness for any other marine army. Plasma guns, melta guns, power weapons, battlecannons, missile launchers, genestealers, and so forth.

I used to get angry about the new powerful army too, but then I realized that crying cheese and hiding under your bed doesn't make them go away. Understanding them and doing what you can to become a better player in spite of the new challenge before you is how you make them go away.

Blacksails wrote:They die like Space Marines. Still a bunch of expensive power armoured models in AV11 tanks. My executioners, demolishers, battlecannons, mulitlasers, plasma guns and meltaguns kill them just as easily as they did other marines. In close combat, my vets die the same way they did before, only now its faster.

Its a good dex, but not stupid overpowered that we should stop playing 40k unless you play GK.

The thing is they are not like playing regular SM, yes they have the same armour but that is about where it ends. Between all of the 4+ cover, jump troops, LR and Storm Ravens you can't shoot them all. They will get to you, even if it is a few with hammer they are going to clean house in combat. Every model has a power weapon, the same can not be said for SM. At least agaisnt SM your guard will get a save most ot the time in combat, not the same against GK. Don't count on being able to stay nice and safe in those chimeras either, with hammer hand and thunder hammers they won't last long, that is if they are not plown away from all the S8 rifle men dreads, or S7 assault cannons. If the GK player has any clue what he is doing you will only get one turn with those meta guns anyway. They have a 12 inch range if you are shooting this turn he is assaulting you next turn. You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat. Its not at all like playing against SM.