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Gaunt's Ghosts have barely faced a dozen Chaos Marines over all their books. So they're not "killing them by the dozens".

Lynata wrote:Studio material, i.e. the fluff in GW's own books and to some extent* the rules - around which the fluff was written. Not just the 40k TT, but also the Inquisitor RPG, etc. The 2E Angels of Death Codex, for example, contained a pretty informative page of text about the protective values of power armour and what can still wound an Astartes. I liked that, as (after some calculating) I found out it fits well into the rules of the game as well as the history of its setting (yes, there actually are a few incidents where the Marines failed to accomplish their goal, and this is the explanation for it).

I still maintain my right to disagree on what constitutes "small-arms fire." Though actually, weren't Marines in 2e weaker than the Marines currently on the TT? From what I hear anyway.

I'm not seeing what makes you think Marines are not as strong in the codices as they are in BL though, honestly. I can recall a lot of crazy Marine feats. Like leveling a chapel (Think about how big 40k chapels are) with a single hit from a Thunder Hammer. Terminators apparently can be used for Titan hunting. They can survive a Psyflame Bomb that destroys a massive Librarium, the biggest outside of Sol.

Marines are not the biggest and baddest things in the fluff, that's true, but they're still powerful to an extent that could perhaps be described as demigodlike.

Black Library on the other hand exaggerates in favour of whoever is the hero of the story, regardless of whether it's a Marine or an Imperial Guard soldier - the inconsistencies resulting out of this approach are fairly obvious. For example, just because Gaunt's Ghosts manage to frag Chaos Marines by the dozens, I don't believe the latter would be that weak. Similarly, however, I also don't think Astartes are that uber just because their novels are almost always written in "300"-style. I could point at "Daemonblood" now and proclaim that every Sororitas Seraphim should be able to go 1 on 1 with a Marine Sergeant and win in close combat, but I won't, because I know that sometimes a story just wants to tell a cool story.

Are you under the impression the codices don't do this? The Grey Knights codex has a grand total of one loss inside it. I can't recall any signifigant Space Wolf losses (The only one that comes to mind is when some Wolf makes a pass at a woman and notices she isn't human, and proceeds to never be seen again), it is similar for the Blood Angels and vanilla Marines codex. Codices arguably even more than BL emphasize the raw awesomeness of the faction, generally. I can't comment on Gaunt's Ghosts, haven't read. Though I've heard Gaunt does stupid gak like do backflips while dual-wielding bolt pistols. That may of been a joke from my friend. I hope it was.

Just my interpretation of the available material, of course. Due to the nature of how the franchise is run, none of us can be "wrong" here, since every source is just as good (or not) as another. Still, I think a too-exaggerated description of the Marines would make for a less consistent setting, as you're simply approaching a point where you have to ask yourself why the Imperium just doesn't wipe everyone's butt with these demigods of war. Let's say I just prefer them to be "much better", but not invincible. May be just a general preference I have, though. I find fallible characters to be much more interesting, regardless of franchise.

*: When something has a better stat, I generally assume it is superior than whatever it is compared to. Such as "bolters > lasguns".

Why would it be a less consistent setting? The Space Marines are demigods of war. But that's not always enough. There are bigger Tyranids than Marines, and much more Tyranids overall. Necrons have been capable of taking down Marines, being similar physically with much better technology, and they have units like Wraiths, Lords, Pariahs, etc that are better than Marines up close. Orks range from "Overall inferior to a Marine but still nothing to laugh at" to "Can rip a Marine's power armoured spine out from his chest." And IIRC the Eldar are even better than Marines at felling numerous enemies while taking minimal casualties, their entire style of war is based on it.

40k is a pretty absurd setting. A Space Marine wielding a chainsword, considering its physical properties, would be able to cut through damn near anything IRL, yet power armour can effectively resist them.

Lynata wrote:
Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans?

That contradicts codex fluff as well, so...not so much, no.

Space Marines don't fear a stand-up fight, it's simply that numbers can eventually beat anything. The Imperial Guard could take down Titans using nothing but Guardsmen armed with combat knives; they'd eventually pull it off, but they'd lose, likely, hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A hundred Astartes could square off against ten thousand Guardsmen, and while the Guardsmen would ultimately win the fight, they'd do so with horrific losses.

It's a horribly trite and horribly disrespectful - and not entirely accurate - comparison, but look at the Battle of Mogadishu; 100 American special forces with limited aerial support against half the city of Mogadishu. The Americans maintained a kill-to-death ratio of somewhere around 1:100, but still "lost" simply because enough numbers will make any problem go away eventually.

The Space Marines avoid doing the battles of attrition that the Guard does because that's not their job, and because they can be employed to do things the Guard can't do. They were engineered for it, and they're not just slightly better.

Ah, but those of you saying use a missile are missing the point. A missile cannot fight hand to hand, or fire a bolter, or charge through a wall. Marines can do all of those things and also with Jump packs etc can do much more. But BL fluff has them doing very dull things like walking down corridors etc. If you had power armour and you had super human stength and can climb etc, you wouldn't bother going through doorways or corridors. You would go through a floor, window (make you own window) or make your own door. Corridors are natural killing zones as are Stairwells, that is why explosive entry techniques are popular, to take the Enemy down by an unexpected entry point.
The SF / SM / stormtrooper point aside, Astartes are no where near aggressive enough. If you could run at 30mph weight a 1000kg, heft a 20mm personal weapon on full auto and shrug off small arms fire and bench press a Family car for giggles, you certainly wouldn't be shy in engaging the enemy.

@void Dragon, completely agree. A chainsword is crap at cutting in the 40k Universe, however mount it on a Power Fist and suddenly it becomes a chain fist deliberately designed for cutting through bulkheads....Wtf.

Void__Dragon wrote:Though actually, weren't Marines in 2e weaker than the Marines currently on the TT? From what I hear anyway.

They were in Rogue Trader, back when they were still T3 and their enhancements were not as "extensive" as in 2E and later (contrary to popular belief, however, they were never a bunch of undisciplined prisoners like the Terran Marines from StarCraft - forced recruitment of hive gangs did happen in addition to volunteers from feral worlds, but psycho-indoctrination was already referenced back then).

Void__Dragon wrote:I can recall a lot of crazy Marine feats. Like leveling a chapel (Think about how big 40k chapels are) with a single hit from a Thunder Hammer.

That doesn't sound too far off, actually. Chapels are held together by pillars, knock one apart (which I see a TH being absolutely capable of, even if it has a diameter of a full meter) and the whole structure may come down. Just needs to be the right one.

Void__Dragon wrote:Terminators apparently can be used for Titan hunting. They can survive a Psyflame Bomb that destroys a massive Librarium, the biggest outside of Sol.

Terminators for Titan hunting = wat. If you mean that they could enter the Titan and fight inside, sure, you can do that with normal power armour too, though. They'd never survive a direct confrontation though.
As for a Psyflame bomb, I've never read about that (and sadly Lexicanum doesn't know it either so I'm out of references), but it sounds reasonable that a flame weapon does more damage to a huge pile of books than to a person enclosed in temparature-regulated armour originally invented for reactor maintenance duty.

Void__Dragon wrote:Are you under the impression the codices don't do this?

Not at all! There's lots of crazy stuff in the codices as well - and there's lots of "normal" stuff in BL novels, too. I'm just under the impression that, overall, studio material is way more consistent and ... "balanced", in a narrative way of things. Let's just say I prefer Rogal Dorn's "1 Marine is worth 10 soldiers" line instead of the more excessive feats of heroism we may get to see. That's just my interpretation and personal preference, mind you - I'm sure we all pick and choose a little based on what we like more (independent of franchise, i.e. preference for "heroic", "epic", "gritty" stories etc).

Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Terminators apparently can be used for Titan hunting. They can survive a Psyflame Bomb that destroys a massive Librarium, the biggest outside of Sol.

Terminators for Titan hunting = wat. If you mean that they could enter the Titan and fight inside, sure, you can do that with normal power armour too, though. They'd never survive a direct confrontation though.
As for a Psyflame bomb, I've never read about that (and sadly Lexicanum doesn't know it either so I'm out of references), but it sounds reasonable that a flame weapon does more damage to a huge pile of books than to a person enclosed in temparature-regulated armour originally invented for reactor maintenance duty.

Have you ever heard of Titan Hammer Squads? Lysander pioneered this tactic where he and about 30 Other terminators with TH would assault Titans using a Vortex Grenade as well.

Your standard terminator squad doesn't have acces to those.

Hell, most Chapters don't have acces to those.

I'd also like to see them take on anything bigger then a warhound. The void shields would just fry their asses.

Space Marines aren't just about strength, and that only really plays a role in close combat (and in close combat with mono blades chainswrods and power weapons, I suspect speed as much i fnot more than strength plays a role.) They have superhuman reflexes, reaction times, and can observe and process information (and think) at rates far beyond a normal person. They have vastly more knowledge and information crammed into their brain they can draw on. They are designed tot ake massive amounts of abuse and keep functioning (physical durability, pain resistance, limited selfrepair and self healing.) They have extraordinary sensory capabilities (in all regards) as well as the ability to assimilate information from other sources (a TREMENDOUS boon that). They're designed to be able to operate away from a supply line (although they function best in such.. power armor does have solar cells.. makes me wonder why they never use a SM-sized lasweapon when away from supply lines....). They can run at great speeds and endure that for tremendous durations. And on and on and on. Space Marines aren't supposed to be the strongest (although Marine strength, like other abilities, can vary somewhat from the baseline just sa it does with normal people) but they're supposed to be alla round better in most regards because of those augmentations, and those abilities comprise far more than just strength (Combat servitors and OGryn at least have them outdone in the strength department, and some unmodified Guard humans of the Bragg variety must come close in physical size/strength outside of the armor.)


As far as augmetics vs Marines go... how exactly are people quantifying the stats? I don't quite follow how one reads the statas and then derives a comparsion. Do stats scale linearly, or exponetnially or what? how is the baseline derived? Is there not a problem of a great deal of abstraction? For example, does the stat represent the kind of feats performed (which can be quite diverse.) in time as well as magnitude? \

Example: STraken has a super duper augmetic, which apparently makes him nsaty in combat. What does that really mean, insofar as strength. MEtal is generally harder than flesh, even space Marine flesh, so that is an advantage. I gather he can possibly generate more short term force or pressure (EG make a really good punch or crush a skull) with the augmetic, which would give him significant combat skill. That doesn't mean he can lift huge weights over his head (he still has a normal human arm, and a normal human body and skeleton that his super arm is anchored too.. I suspect it would get ripped out at the roots if he tried some feats a Space Marine did.) STrength can involve not just lifting, pushing, etc but also how long one can endure it, tolerance of the body to such strains, and other various factors in which a Marine could beat STraken at (in other words, STraken might excel in one particular strength category compared to an Astartes, but it doesnt make him all around better insofar as strength goes.)


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Lynata wrote:
The 2E Angels of Death Codex, for example, contained a pretty informative page of text about the protective values of power armour and what can still wound an Astartes. I liked that, as (after some calculating) I found out it fits well into the rules of the game as well as the history of its setting (yes, there actually are a few incidents where the Marines failed to accomplish their goal, and this is the explanation for it).

You mean stuff like this?

Page 8 wrote:
The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helsp to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium.

On its own a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs., and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move wihile wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour.

..

In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy damper which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

It helps some but there's some pretty hefty qualifiers to it, and it just means that 40K body armor pretty much obeys some of the same rules they do IRL, which is hardly surprising. Except for the mass lightening component, which I find a bit silly (does this mean all power armor makes Marines jump troops or something?) And of course they give a mass figure which is quite a bit less than FFG does, nevermind what authors say.

Of course, using 2nd edition was the point in time at which the Imperium was still ludicrously advanced in a technical sense even t the IG level. 70 kph Russes with high tech guns, sensors, computer systems, etc. Not to mention standard gear including all sorts of neat stuff like infrared/NVG, etc. Hell I'm pretty sure you could still even use Predators and Rhinos along side the other stuff (you could in Epic, anyhow. Now that had some insane capabilities tied to it..)

Connor MacLeod wrote:how exactly are people quantifying the stats? I don't quite follow how one reads the statas and then derives a comparsion. Do stats scale linearly, or exponetnially or what? how is the baseline derived? Is there not a problem of a great deal of abstraction?

I think it's very much a matter of gauging, at least for me. In 40k, humans can go from S2 (Cultists) to S3 (norm) to S4 (Harker, Bragg), so I think the differences are clearly notable, yet not worlds apart. S5-Ogryns are, in the end, only a "naturally" evolved human mutation as well. Obviously, with the limited level of detail of the TT ruleset, there's lots of abstraction going on, yet when the rules don't create such a massive gap, I just don't know why it needs to be introduced by some novel or RPG. Of course I realize why it was done, but just like Jes Goodwin jokingly criticized that they seem to "get progressively bigger with every book", I am criticizing that they seem to "get progressively more super with every book".

That said, I like your above assessment about the Astartes being all about the combination. You make a very good point regarding Harker, too - I didn't consider the effects of the rest of his body being unaugmented. That said, it was still enough to root-strangle that CSM Lord, for which he'd have needed both hands... I think we can just agree on him being very badass and disregard the details. I admit he wasn't a good example.

Connor MacLeod wrote:You mean stuff like this?

That's exactly it.

I don't think 2E was that far apart from what we have now - the biggest jump the setting has made was from Rogue Trader to 2E, and when I look at the Guard Codex it reads fairly low-tech (well, as low-tech as the current one anyways).
As for as the mass lightening component ... well, things like Suspensors are still in use, which have the same effect. I admit I'm not really sure what to think of it, but it could be a neat explanation for the random "why don't Space Marines fall through the floor" question that pops up again and again.

Connor MacLeod wrote:And of course they give a mass figure which is quite a bit less than FFG does, nevermind what authors say.

"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare

Just pick what you like best, I guess.

What mass lightening system?

The "gravitic energy dampener" in Connor's Codex quote. I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned anywhere else other than in C: Angels of Death. Of all GW books, this one had the most extensive description for power armour I've ever seen - most Codices and rulebooks leave it fairly open and only deal with the basics in a few sentences, if at all (the 5E Marine Codex virtually tells you nothing!).

Lynata wrote:I think it's very much a matter of gauging, at least for me. In 40k, humans can go from S2 (Cultists) to S3 (norm) to S4 (Harker, Bragg), so I think the differences are clearly notable, yet not worlds apart. S5-Ogryns are, in the end, only a "naturally" evolved human mutation as well. Obviously, with the limited level of detail of the TT ruleset, there's lots of abstraction going on, yet when the rules don't create such a massive gap, I just don't know why it needs to be introduced by some novel or RPG. Of course I realize why it was done, but just like Jes Goodwin jokingly criticized that they seem to "get progressively bigger with every book", I am criticizing that they seem to "get progressively more super with every book".

I tend to follow the guidelines set down by BFG - basically they once provided variables that coudl be used to "calc" the stats, but they put a ton of disclaimers and qualifiers on that because it was both highly relative and very abrstracted.
Another good joke I've heard is that in the FFG RPG stuff, it's quite possible (By game mechanics) for Space Marines to die falling down the stairs.

That said, I like your above assessment about the Astartes being all about the combination. You make a very good point regarding Harker, too - I didn't consider the effects of the rest of his body being unaugmented. That said, it was still enough to root-strangle that CSM Lord, for which he'd have needed both hands... I think we can just agree on him being very badass and disregard the details. I admit he wasn't a good example.

Thanks! I think its natural to focus on strength as matterin because Marines are portrayed so often as close combat fighters, even in the novels. They can be strong, and that matters, but there are always plenty of stronger things in universe than they are. Orks can be pretty damn strong, as can Tyranids, for example. I also suspect their power armor probably has variable strength "settings" depending on power usage, strain on the frame, and so on (they might boost strength temporarily to rip doors off, but that is something that wouldn't neccesarily translate into increased fighting capability.)

I don't think 2E was that far apart from what we have now - the biggest jump the setting has made was from Rogue Trader to 2E, and when I look at the Guard Codex it reads fairly low-tech (well, as low-tech as the current one anyways).

Rogue Trader was both more tongue in cheek than second edition. But 2nd edition (and thereabouts) was vastly different. For example, look at the response times given for the Guard in the 2nd edition IG Codex (30-120 days on average IIRC, which included conscripting, training and transporting troops as I recall.) and compare it with how things are handled now. Or the Chimeras running on nuclear reactors. Another example is how certain technologies were either taken out of Guard inventories, or portrayed as too high tech for the guard (or being high tech made them rarer. This last bit is especially proiminent in all the forge World IG fluff.) I blame part of that on the artwork, and part of tha ton the general emphasis on the "dark gritty gloom and doom" 'seriousness' that prevailed in 3rd and 4th edition.

As for as the mass lightening component ... well, things like Suspensors are still in use, which have the same effect. I admit I'm not really sure what to think of it, but it could be a neat explanation for the random "why don't Space Marines fall through the floor" question that pops up again and again.

calling it "mass lightening" was mainly a joke, because I figured it probably was a suspensor (yet more tech that becomes progressively "lost" in later editions..) because the fluff is pretty consistent in describing antigrav tech working that way. Except for the Eye of Terror novel, which actually did describe antigravity "mass reducing" fields.

"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare

Just pick what you like best, I guess.

As much as I liked the White Scars stuff he's produced I still blame Andy Hoare for inflicting literal age of sail space combat and the Arcadius on us, so he doesn't get a say. BEsides my favorite authors to quote would be Gav Thorpe or Andy Chambers or Bill King

Lynata wrote:They were in Rogue Trader, back when they were still T3 and their enhancements were not as "extensive" as in 2E and later (contrary to popular belief, however, they were never a bunch of undisciplined prisoners like the Terran Marines from StarCraft - forced recruitment of hive gangs did happen in addition to volunteers from feral worlds, but psycho-indoctrination was already referenced back then).

I see.

That doesn't sound too far off, actually. Chapels are held together by pillars, knock one apart (which I see a TH being absolutely capable of, even if it has a diameter of a full meter) and the whole structure may come down. Just needs to be the right one.

I doubt a single meter thick pillar toppling over would be capable of destroying the entire cathedral, considering the sheer size of them.

Terminators for Titan hunting = wat. If you mean that they could enter the Titan and fight inside, sure, you can do that with normal power armour too, though. They'd never survive a direct confrontation though.

"Boarding Tyranid-infested space hulks,
launching teleport attacks, Titan assaults and combat actions
in extremely hostile environments, such as deep space or
volcanic marshland; these are the missions undertaken by
Space Marine Terminators."

I generally assume an "assault" on a Titan would require one to assault the Titan, rather than the people piloting it. Granted it's fairly vague, but not important.

As for a Psyflame bomb, I've never read about that (and sadly Lexicanum doesn't know it either so I'm out of references), but it sounds reasonable that a flame weapon does more damage to a huge pile of books than to a person enclosed in temparature-regulated armour originally invented for reactor maintenance duty.

"Slowly but surely, undeteded by the Space Marines who
scoured the fire-blackened rubble for any trace of the foe,
arcane energies began to build. By the time the last of the
Imperial Guard regiments had taken position, Ahriman's trap
was fully-charged and burst into terrifying life. The planet
rocked on its axis as the othervvorldly explosion sent pink fire
crackling through the catacombs. Whole sedions of the
labyrinthine archives collapsed under the force of the blast,
and datastacks that had stood inviolate for millennia shifted
and toppled. Caught full in the torrents of twisting
Warpflame, the Guardsmen were incinerated to a man.
Proteded by their superior armour, the Invaders fared better,
though many were crushed by falling blocks of masonry or
lost to the bottomless fissures that tore open the Librarium's
floors. Yet the danger had only begun. As Ahriman had
planned, the barriers between the mortal world and the
Realm of Chaos had been weakened by the sorcerous
explosion. Even as the fires guttered and died, the walls of
reality were torn asunder and Daemons burst through into
the Librarium's great hall."

The Librarium was destroyed, crumbling when put up against the force of the blast, and apparently the planet "rocked on its axis".

Not at all! There's lots of crazy stuff in the codices as well - and there's lots of "normal" stuff in BL novels, too. I'm just under the impression that, overall, studio material is way more consistent and ... "balanced", in a narrative way of things. Let's just say I prefer Rogal Dorn's "1 Marine is worth 10 soldiers" line instead of the more excessive feats of heroism we may get to see. That's just my interpretation and personal preference, mind you - I'm sure we all pick and choose a little based on what we like more (independent of franchise, i.e. preference for "heroic", "epic", "gritty" stories etc).

Eh. Maybe it's because I haven't read enough Black Library, but I'm not seeing anything truly signifigant that suggests BL is any more inconsistent than the codices.

I personally think that one Marine being the equal of ten soldiers is, well, hyperbole. A throwaway statement not meant to be considered fact. Not when you have 100 or less Marines defending against legions of Necrons or Tyranids that vastly outnumber them, the latter and definitely the former being superior to guardsmen. And then there is of course Space Marines in Commorragh handing the Dark Eldar their asses. Their feats suggest they are worth far more than 10 guardsmen. Since ten guardsmen would seriously struggle to even shoot a single Dark Eldar, for example (In the fluff Dark Eldar can do gak like dodge las-fire after it is fired and kick active grenades back at the person who threw it).

Connor MacLeod wrote:I tend to follow the guidelines set down by BFG - basically they once provided variables that coudl be used to "calc" the stats, but they put a ton of disclaimers and qualifiers on that because it was both highly relative and very abrstracted.

Huh, do you remember where that was? In spite of the abstract nature of the TT, it sounds like a potentially interesting read. Especially given that I wanted to write some custom starship fluff at some point in time, and maybe that article could me help better understand how the background correllates to the system.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Another good joke I've heard is that in the FFG RPG stuff, it's quite possible (By game mechanics) for Space Marines to die falling down the stairs.

Falling hurts Marines in that system more than a battle with a Greater Daemon. I also recall the most efficient way to kill a Hive Tyrant being to punch it 50 or so meters into the air so that it gets killed by falling damage.

I'm probably weird in that I like playing FFG's RPG, yet can find a load of stuff to criticize on it - ranging from deviations from the source material to things that just don't add up even in their own rules. Perhaps it's just nitpicking because I see all that potential, but certain things just look like huge ugly stains on an otherwise clean cloth to me.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I also suspect their power armor probably has variable strength "settings" depending on power usage, strain on the frame, and so on (they might boost strength temporarily to rip doors off, but that is something that wouldn't neccesarily translate into increased fighting capability.)

The old Inquisitor RPG mentioned a strength increase of 1/5 of the user's original strength, whereas FFG's RPG applies a flat bonus. Just two potential sources for inspiration, of course - I do like your proposition regarding situational boosts, and I think I even read this in at least one novel once... Hmm, might be a cool houserule for the roleplaying game.

Connor MacLeod wrote:For example, look at the response times given for the Guard in the 2nd edition IG Codex (30-120 days on average IIRC, which included conscripting, training and transporting troops as I recall.) and compare it with how things are handled now.

I don't remember any retcon in that regard - looking at the 5E Guard Codex, it only mentions that the regiment will be travelling for "many weeks" - which fits perfectly into the 30-120 day timeframe.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I figured it probably was a suspensor (yet more tech that becomes progressively "lost" in later editions..)

Suspensors were still around in the last TT Deathwatch Killteam rules (2003?) - I'd say just wait until they release new ones, I wouldn't at all wonder if they were still there.

Connor MacLeod wrote:As much as I liked the White Scars stuff he's produced I still blame Andy Hoare for inflicting literal age of sail space combat and the Arcadius on us, so he doesn't get a say. BEsides my favorite authors to quote would be Gav Thorpe or Andy Chambers or Bill King

Hmm, I don't have anything from Andy Chambers and I do not know Bill King, but here's one from Gav Thorpe that a fellow Dakkanaut recently threw at me, causing me to change my stance regarding the question of canonicity:
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."

And I kind of like age of sail space combat. More majestic this way!

Void__Dragon wrote:I doubt a single meter thick pillar toppling over would be capable of destroying the entire cathedral, considering the sheer size of them.

The size could very well only increase the chance of it coming down to your head. It all depends on how exactly it was constructed, which material was used and how well it was maintained in the millennia since its erection.

Void__Dragon wrote:I generally assume an "assault" on a Titan would require one to assault the Titan, rather than the people piloting it. Granted it's fairly vague, but not important.

Not necessarily the people. The machinery within. It's as if the attackers would become a little "infection" for the Titan that, over time, renders its "organs" damaged. It's not only been done by Terminators, but I reckon that - just like boarding Space Hulks - Terminators will have a big advantage here.

I just don't see it working otherwise, sorry. The ranged weapons that a Terminator can mount are unable to inflict sufficient damage and melee ... well, the Titan moves one step and suddenly that squad is out of range by 100 meters? In addition to that, in my world not even a Terminator will be able to survive a direct hit from a Titan weapon. It just seems ... weird to have infantry survive anti-starship guns.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Librarium was destroyed, crumbling when put up against the force of the blast, and apparently the planet "rocked on its axis".

So it wasn't some conventional bomb it was an earthquake and warp flames resulting out of a rift. Naturally anyone who isn't firmly rooted in the ground will be able to "compensate" for tremors which would raze buildings. The Guardsmen only didn't because they were caught in the fire.

Void__Dragon wrote:Eh. Maybe it's because I haven't read enough Black Library, but I'm not seeing anything truly signifigant that suggests BL is any more inconsistent than the codices.

In the end, it has to be solely because it is written by much, much more people - all of whom have their very own ideas and personal interpretations on how things are supposed to work, ranging from Marines having an average height of 9+ feet to backflipping Terminators to Tau having toes instead of hooves to flirting SoB.
As I've come to accept that the concept of canonicity is entirely absent from 40k, all of these interpretations and the source material itself are equally valid (and I do incorporate ideas from BL novels into my own custom fluff) - but it should not be surprising that the source material, written by much less people and paraphrasing or even copypasting entire sections from their older books time and time again, gives a much less "fluid" impression than the works of BL authors who have publicly admitted that they don't give a grox's ass over what someone else wrote.

Void__Dragon wrote:I personally think that one Marine being the equal of ten soldiers is, well, hyperbole. A throwaway statement not meant to be considered fact.

See, and I chose to think of the idea that Space Marines are the equal of a hundred or a thousand soldiers is hyperbole, because I've grown up with a different perception from the studio material that I've read. Exceptional face-offs in which some faction overcame a much bigger enemy army can, I presume, be found for anyone if you just keep on looking. Don't forget that Guardsmen can carry a melta or a plasma gun, too, and thusly can be just as dangerous in ranged combat. And we're not even talking heavy weapon teams yet. Under the right circumstances, a single Guardsman could kill a Marine, so I find the 1:10 formula a fitting compromise between both the high and the low extremes that would result out of further considerations such as terrain, surprise, morale, etc.

Hmm. Yeah, I've never come across the gravitic energy dampener, so I assume it's one of those things that probably just got abandoned along the way. As for why Space Marines don't fall through floors and stuff, I'd say it's because everything's built reinforced in the 41st millennium. You've got your heavy Space Marines, your heavy Mechanicus adepts, your heavy abhumans...building codes probably just eventually took those into account.

Lynata wrote:]Huh, do you remember where that was? In spite of the abstract nature of the TT, it sounds like a potentially interesting read. Especially given that I wanted to write some custom starship fluff at some point in time, and maybe that article could me help better understand how the background correllates to the system.

It came from Andy Chambers. As I recall it was from some old email list or group way back when. There's a link to it here

I'm probably weird in that I like playing FFG's RPG, yet can find a load of stuff to criticize on it - ranging from deviations from the source material to things that just don't add up even in their own rules. Perhaps it's just nitpicking because I see all that potential, but certain things just look like huge ugly stains on an otherwise clean cloth to me.

I actually like FFG for their fluff and their approach, it seems much more well thought out than the Codexes and such, which read far too much like propoganda. "The galaxy constantly at war!" and all that. The only race that has ever managed to thrive in a total war scenario are the Orks, and that is because they are engineered for it mentally and physically, they have a mobile, self-renewing ecosystem, and they use teeth as the basis for their economy.

The old Inquisitor RPG mentioned a strength increase of 1/5 of the user's original strength, whereas FFG's RPG applies a flat bonus. Just two potential sources for inspiration, of course - I do like your proposition regarding situational boosts, and I think I even read this in at least one novel once... Hmm, might be a cool houserule for the roleplaying game.

I was thinking of Savage Scars, which I am in the process of slowly reading. Sarik (The White Scar protagonist) had to tear the hatch off a damaged Rhino to get at the crew inside, and boosted power to his arms to provide the extra strength. Sufficed to say the suit didn't like that, and it was clearly a case where the armour required preparation and time to bolster strength.

I don't remember any retcon in that regard - looking at the 5E Guard Codex, it only mentions that the regiment will be travelling for "many weeks" - which fits perfectly into the 30-120 day timeframe.

Check pages 7-8 of the 5th edition IG codex and compare it to what they discuss on page 6 on the 2nd edition codex. In 2nd edition you have 30-120 days to organize a response from over a 10K LY radius of the troubled world, and that is considered a "close" response. Average time 75 days for all of that (including travel time to the planet.) In 5th edition, responses are handled thusly: Page 7 they describe that IG responses are handled at subsector and sector levels, with forces being raised locally from the surrounding star systems in the immediate vicinity - even worse this is done "haphazardly" (Eg little organization) they just raise them and throw them en-masse. This typically means now a few tens of LY (Sectors are 200 LY a side as per BFG, and subsectors are smaller formations within that. Average distance between worlds I've figured in a sector/subsector is 10-20 LY or so.). Page 8 they mention the PDFs are expected to be able to defend a world for "months, even years" before reinforcements arrive. They even mention Ryza in both codexes, and its changed from 10K LY (2nd) to 10 LY in 5th.

Personally I don't ascribe any greater emphasis on 5th edition than 2nd, as response time is dependent upon many variables (least of which being the warp) so they can be equally valid, but my point is that taking time and distance and organization (or lack thereof) into consideration between the codexes, the IG was more impressive in 2nd edition than presented in 5th, especially if you take both sources in isolation (which I wouldn't do, but some people do that.)

Edit: Oh yeah and there's those Forgeworld IA books. The response times in IA3 and 5 for the Imperium were not particularily impressive.. I've seen people like to throw those around (I think for Taros it took like a Year at least, and Vraks may have taken longer.)

Suspensors were still around in the last TT Deathwatch Killteam rules (2003?) - I'd say just wait until they release new ones, I wouldn't at all wonder if they were still there.

They're around if you look in enough sources - they aren't even rare depending on the author, but insofar as codexes and such go they seem to be rare if not nonexistent. Remember declining technology is more gritty and foreboding!
I fully envision that by 6th edition Ogryn and Servitors in hamster wheels will be the new means of propelling tanks and starships. And possibly running forge worlds.

Hmm, I don't have anything from Andy Chambers and I do not know Bill King, but here's one from Gav Thorpe that a fellow Dakkanaut recently threw at me, causing me to change my stance regarding the question of canonicity:

Andy Chambers wrote two short stories that appeared (one of which was a snippet in the Necron Codex as I recall) and both appear in Let the Galaxy Burn. They let him write one Necromunda novel (Survival Instinct, which was quite good) and he recently started writing for BL again about the Dark Eldar. Bill King wrote the Space Wolf novels, Gotrek and Felix in WH, and I believe he was involved in at least some of the 2nd edition codex writing (I recall him being shown/mentioned in the 2nd edition Space Wolf codex, at least....)

Re canon:
I just avoid canon entirely if I can help it, since canon tends to put things in a context of a religious debate, which it isn't. Also, canon can change over time, and not in good ways, and I've had some very bad experiences dealing with canon in other universes (EG Star Wars, although Halo "canon" is even worse.) On top of that all 40K sources sooner or later recycle the earlier fluff, so like it or not you have to deal with at least some old information as well as new at some point (EG Rogue Trader's RPG virtually recycled a huge chunk of Space Fleet fluff in their core rules, and 5th edition Space Marine codex recycles a bunch of earlier Space marine fluff, such as the bits about over-strength Codex companies during wartime.) Besides, its impossible to get everyone to agree on what is or isn't acceptable material -but I suspect you know that better than I do.

And I kind of like age of sail space combat. More majestic this way!

There's no winds in space so those masts are pretty pointless. Unless the winds of chaos somehow travel in between systems, which wouldn't surprise me.

Wow, we are quite off-topic here. Yep, i agree, SM are ridicolously nerfed in the game compared to lore. A space marine is fully capable of punching through a tank, ripping it up, walking in and killing everything inside with his bare hands to save ammo. I can imagine that a fist fight between a CSM and a SM would be very dangerous to be close to. (the csm might use you as a club!) yeah, them catachan S4 guys.... against a space marine they should look like kittens. Ogryns should be somwhat larger than SM, but game balance has gone to quite some lengths.


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Take 10 well- trained Guardsmen in a fight against a Space marine. It would not be a fight. First, the guardsmen would set their power setting to maximum and pour their fire. The marine would stand still, taking only minor damage to the paint. Then he would raise his boltgun, and Pow! all guardsmen dead. sadly this is not what happens in the game :/ take a fist- only fight instead. The marine could easily, even if he needed to, avoid their blows. In return, he could crack skulls and break bones with the slightest effort. If you were a human in 40k, stay away from the marines.


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Though, balance is required so Guard players do not have to collect ridicolous amounts of models. it's fine as it is.

Soladrin wrote:Your standard terminator squad doesn't have acces to those.

Hell, most Chapters don't have acces to those.

I'd also like to see them take on anything bigger then a warhound. The void shields would just fry their asses.

Warhounds have them too.
Also, I don't think that a void shield would stop someone from walking up to it.


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And there is wind in space. Its called "solar wind".

Indeed. i think void shields work by stopping fast objects but not slow.

Can a Space Marine do this and be this awesome?

Yes, and probably easier.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:My take on Space marines role is they are as far above "special forces" as the Army is above the boy scouts, not to be a astartes fanboy

Too late.

Space Marines can be taken down by normal humans with any level of competent planning. Even killing one Astartes is far more damaging to a chapter than destroying an entire regiment is to the Guard.


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iproxtaco wrote:Yes, and probably easier.

No.


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BrotherHaraldus wrote:Take 10 well- trained Guardsmen in a fight against a Space marine. It would not be a fight. First, the guardsmen would set their power setting to maximum and pour their fire. The marine would stand still

And then die.

The marine's durability advantage turns to nothing if he is stationary.

Melissia wrote:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:My take on Space marines role is they are as far above "special forces" as the Army is above the boy scouts, not to be a astartes fanboy

Too late.

Space Marines can be taken down by normal humans with any level of competent planning. Even killing one Astartes is far more damaging to a chapter than destroying an entire regiment is to the Guard.

As can literally anything else in the galaxy, as numerous Black Library books have shown us.

Melissia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, and probably easier.

No.

Ok then. I'm still right but whatever.

iproxtaco wrote:

Melissia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, and probably easier.

No.

Ok then. I'm still right but whatever.

No, you're not. Marines are only perceived as gods upon the battlefield. They are not actually so. In truth they are merely supremely competent soldiers, not infallible battlegods.

Marines are described as incredibly proficient warriors where i read, that really can't be compared with Stormtroopers for example. Space Marines seem weak due to game balance, and to be kind to horde army players so they do not have to collect ridiculous amounts of models. That does not mean that that's true in the "real" 40k. Marines is in fact so superior to normal soldiers that they aren't even in the same league. Power armor is all but invincible to lasgun rounds.

Melissia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Melissia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, and probably easier.

No.

Ok then. I'm still right but whatever.

No, you're not. Marines are only perceived as gods upon the battlefield. They are not actually so. In truth they are merely supremely competent soldiers, not infallible battlegods.

They're also genetically enhanced and given some of the best equipment available in the Imperium - much of it exclusive to them.

I don't think anyone's suggested they're infallible. Suggesting that a squad of Guardsmen who put on their thinking caps for five minutes will always destroy a squad of Marines is just as asinine, though. And yes, that is in fact what you suggested with your "any level of competent planning," stuff. Marines are pretty tactically proficient themselves.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Marines are described as incredibly proficient warriors where i read, that really can't be compared with Stormtroopers for example. Space Marines seem weak due to game balance, and to be kind to horde army players so they do not have to collect ridiculous amounts of models. That does not mean that that's true in the "real" 40k. Marines is in fact so superior to normal soldiers that they aren't even in the same league. Power armor is all but invincible to lasgun rounds.

You're mistaking movie marines for actual fluff marines. Movie marines are a lie that space marine fanboys tell themselves to make themselves feel better.


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Seaward wrote:Suggesting that a squad of Guardsmen who put on their thinking caps for five minutes will always destroy a squad of Marines is just as asinine, though.

No it's not. An ambush with mines, IEDs, booby traps, and heavy and special weapons will utterly devastate a Marine squad when competently performed. These are things the IG is known to use, the Uplifting Primer even has examples of basic traps IIRC.

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Marines are described as incredibly proficient warriors where i read, that really can't be compared with Stormtroopers for example. Space Marines seem weak due to game balance, and to be kind to horde army players so they do not have to collect ridiculous amounts of models. That does not mean that that's true in the "real" 40k. Marines is in fact so superior to normal soldiers that they aren't even in the same league. Power armor is all but invincible to lasgun rounds.

You're mistaking movie marines for actual fluff marines. Movie marines are a lie that space marine fanboys tell themselves to make themselves feel better.

Not really, no.

If the book's about Space Marines, Space Marines are above and beyond anything else.

If the book's about Guardsmen, Guardsmen are plucky, scrappy veterans who can take out a Terminator squad using nothing more than rocks and chewing gum.

Welcome to battle porn. The focus of the story is always more impressive than the opposition or allies.

Edit: The one exception off the top of my head being Salvation's Reach, where three measly Marines waltz effortlessly through regiments of Blood Pack and, as always, half of Gaunt's Ghosts die.


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Melissia wrote:
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Seaward wrote:Suggesting that a squad of Guardsmen who put on their thinking caps for five minutes will always destroy a squad of Marines is just as asinine, though.

No it's not. An ambush with mines, IEDs, booby traps, and heavy and special weapons will utterly devastate a Marine squad when competently performed.

Prove it.

Can a Marine tank a lascannon hit? A plasma cannon? A multimelta? How about a battle cannon or a demolisher shell? If you stick a meltabomb or krak grenade on them are they going to shrug that off? What if you drop a nuke on them?