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That's a lot of questions!
Lascannon: maybe, depends on where you hit, a headshot is a kill, but he should survive (but with serious injuries, augmetics likely required) a body hit. also depends on the quality of the armor- scout armor: no, artificier armor. most likely.
Plasma cannon: more tricky. a direct hit is a almost gauranteed kill, but getting a direct hit is easier said than done; and splash damage can mostly be shrugged off.
Multimelta: short range, so the marine will likely see you and kill you, but if you manage to fire then it once more depends on where you hit, but it should inflict heavy damage, likely kill. (remember that you fire AIR, hitting is very hard.)¨
Battle and Demolisher cannon, same as plasma cannon.
And, no questions like "then why does not IG fighting chaos space marines use only these weapons?" they are rarer than you might think, and CSm is not exactly predictable.
And marines are superior tactically too, so unless you pinch mr. Creed they will outsmart you AND outfight you. Good luck.

The problem with any 40k military unit is that it is only as good as the guy who writes the fluff. And often these guys are nerds who are not very familiar with weapons and combat.
Like the SM could be totally awesome troops but now they have significant flaws because the people who make the fluff don't seem to realise how something could work against them.

For an example terminators are very melee based but due to their slow speed the enemy can evade them if they so wish, while terminators have to come in range for all AT-weapons if they wan't to melee the enemy and have to worry about grenades, bombs, mines and IED:s.
Also they have as an basic weapon storm bolters while they could have heavy weapons. It would make more sense to use them as mobile gun platforms instead of melee units.
( Though that could explain why terminators are so rare in the 40k universe. )

If one would make an IG unit upgraded to 21:st century standards while using 40k technology; CSM:s with fluff made by nerds would totally bite the dust.

It's what nerds are for, writing the fluff. ^^
And, after all, that with "21:st century standards" is incorrect, because, in case you've forgotten, we are talking about a GAME here.
Terminators as gun platforms? This is something i've talked about before elsewhere, and that i am happy to say here. Take a look at your standard marine. He is not based on modern soldiers. He is based on medieval knights. And, when you consider it, there are many races that favor melee in 40k, so having your elites proficient in hand-to-hand combat makes sense.

Seaward wrote:Not really, no.

You keep tellin' yourself that.

Seaward wrote:Prove it.

Marine opens door, gets blown up by krak missile used to boobytrap (S8 AP3). One marine dead or disabled. Other marines scatter upon seeing this, several get killed/disabled by anti-tank mines (anywhere from S8 AP3 to even S10 depending on the mines). Survivors charge the building or retreat-- if they charge, they meet a room full of exposives (demo pack, easily kills anyone nearby)-- if they flee, the get picked apart by heavy weapons fire (any anti-tank weapon wil do) etc protected by special weapons (meltaguns and plasmaguns, preferably and lasguns (set to hi-power it can still do damage en masse, and one shot in a brain or one to each heart is all it takes to kill them). If they stay where they are they get picked off by heavy weapons or get artillery called on them.

This sort of ambush is hardly unheard of, and the Imperial Guard has the firepower and ordnance to make it work even against Marines.

Space Marines are easily able to avoid that. First, your biggest mistake. You took a game rule to prove your point.
As i said, these are written to balance the game, not to make it "realistic"
And, before the marine opens the door. 1. the squad's auspex guy checks for threats, easily spotting the soldiers that put out the traps. A single frag is thrown into the room, destroying the trap and rendering it useless, also destroying the explosives that was so stealthily used to fill a room. Even if the squad suffers a single casualty (unlikely, since you'll have a hard to time taking down a marine with a non- headshot, and aiming a trap...) they will calmly call for an apothecary. The aforementioned heavy weapons teams have been destroyed or pinned down by Devastators or snipers, since there is no marine (with a few notable exceptions) that are stupid enough to go into unknown ground without support. High-power lasguns? kill a marine in one shot? are you kidding me? first, you got to hit with it (hard, since it kicks like a mule on high power, and the soldier is panicked by the scary 2.70+ meters tall marines that attack him.) then you got to penetrate the armor, which is even more unlikely, considering the material and thickness of the ceramite. You will barely scratch it unless you hit the cunningly hidden soft armor or eye lenses, and if you penetrate, the shot has so low power that he will get a minor burn wound- easily ignored. Plasmas are even harder to aim, and very, very rare. Meltas need a small charge time between the pressing of the trigger and before the shot actually fires; this hardly matters against tanks but makes it easy for the marine to evade, if he doesn't simply kill the firer instead. Any more objections for me to pick apart?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Space Marines are easily able to avoid that. First, your biggest mistake. You took a game rule to prove your point.

Aside from the fact that you are, in fact, wrong and krak weapons do in fact in the lore blast open power armor and vehicle armor-- something the stats accurately represent-- the fan-wankery tone of your post is too annoying to read. Seriously, no, Marines are not gods.

Suffice it to say, Marines have been ambushed in the lore, which means that they can be ambushed again.

Accusing me of "fan-wankery" is quite amoral. First, i do not even play them; i like them, sure, but you seem to have something personal against them. And there is a difference between obvious "open-the-door" traps and more cunning ones. And, if it is as you say, that Marines are basicaly stormtroopers in slightly better armor, then guardsmen must be truly WORTHLESS!
Also, the fact that you did not answer on the rest of my statement is easily taken as a cue that you in fatc agree, but are too stubborn to see logic.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Accusing me of "fan-wankery" is quite amoral.

Not as long as you continue to do so.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:And, if it is as you say

I did not say that in the first place, therefor your argument is null. Space Marines are supremely competent to a soldier, but they still make mistakes, lots of them. Black Library novels prove this.

Krak missiles able to blast up armor? Sure, but that doesn't mean it harms the marine. That you blow away the door to a car doesn't neccessarily means that the passenger leaning on the door is harmed, especially if the passenger is genemodified and trained to be as resilient and strong and possible.


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Not what you say, but what you mean.


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Please do not call me a fan-wankering guy, should i start calling you a griefer? a hater? have you read the forum rules, my friend?


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Also, for your information, black library only writes about the very hardest of space marine battles. They would not be exciting at all otherwise.

And, after all, that with "21:st century standards" is incorrect, because, in case you've forgotten, we are talking about a GAME here.

With that I meant an troop that would have more sensible tactics an equipment.

so having your elites proficient in hand-to-hand combat makes sense.

Unless they lose troops every time they attempt to close in on the enemy and manage to do this only 1/3 of the time.
Though I have to admit its funny when six CSM:s come from behind an corner and an waiting terminator with an power hammer kills them all one at a time.

A single frag is thrown into the room, destroying the trap and rendering it useless, also destroying the explosives that was so stealthily used to fill a room.

And as an result the marine who threw the grenade gets accelerated with some 2000m/s^2 out of the building. See? You just proved my point. An real SM would have an better way for dealing with IED:s.

BrotherHaraldus wrote: Sure, but that doesn't mean it harms the marine.

They do.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Not what you say, but what you mean.

I said what I mean.

Marines win through efficiently planned and executed surprise attacks and lightning attacks. When on the defensive, or when they are caught flat footed, they are at a disadvantage due to their limited numbers and limited support compared to the Imperial Guard.

Given the amount of mistakes they make in BL novels, it is not hard to see them falling for such an ambush I indicated before.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, for your information, black library only writes about the very hardest of space marine battles. They would not be exciting at all otherwise.

And they make craptons of tactical errors, common-sense mistakes, forget briefings, etc in these situations, nevermind in normal situations.

Most books don't have Marines fighting guard, but when they do, they only have them fight guard that's incompetently led. A competent guard officer has more firepower at their command than a Marine sergeant-- even minor officers can call down artillery that can destroy a marine squad in the blink of an eye. All they have to do is tie the Marines up, something that is not hard to do when you have a hundred guys at your command with lots of heavy weapons, mines, and so on. Almost all guard deployment have artillery, while most Marine deployments do not.

They do? Prove it >

I just concluded everyhting you said in one sentence.

Limited numbers are not a disadvantage as long as your quality is so superior. And they have Thunderfire cannons, whirlwinds, and not to mention their starships.
and, as you might have read in many places (as i have)
Many can make surprise attacks. Ork kommandos, Stromtroopers, rangers... the list goes on. If that was their only skill, they would be extinct.
"Space marines are equally strong in attack or defense"
Punch to the face.

Melissia wrote:Marine opens door, gets blown up by krak missile used to boobytrap (S8 AP3).

Only if he's a very stupid Marine. If he was a clever Marine, he'd have the door checked, or skip that and just go through the wall instead.

One marine dead or disabled.

Providing he doesn't dodge the trap that he was to stupid to check for. Marines have super-human agility and wouldn't necessarily get caught in traps that would easily hit normal humans.

Other marines scatter upon seeing this,

Why? Seeing comrades getting blow up isn't anything new for most Space Marines. If anything, they now know that the path is clear and it's safe to proceed. They might even be smart enough to check in future.

several get killed/disabled by anti-tank mines (anywhere from S8 AP3 to even S10 depending on the mines).

And how did they get through this mine field to the door in the first place?

Survivors charge the building

So one dead means scatter like idiots, but many dead means attack?

or retreat--

Far more likely if they got into this situation, which isn't likely at all.

if they charge, they meet a room full of exposives (demo pack, easily kills anyone nearby)

They have to set off the demo packs first, which most marines are able to avoid, having trained for combat and not being stupid.

if they flee, the get picked apart by heavy weapons fire (any anti-tank weapon wil do) etc protected by special weapons (meltaguns and plasmaguns, preferably and lasguns (set to hi-power it can still do damage en masse, and one shot in a brain or one to each heart is all it takes to kill them).

And why didn't these weapons fire when the Marines were approaching the heavily guarded door?

If they stay where they are they get picked off by heavy weapons

Or they could kill the heavy weapons teams using their superior weaponry.

or get artillery called on them.

Which scatters onto the ambush team, killing them

Power armour is not invulnerable. Solid plates are very resistant, the bodyglove and flexible portions.. not so much. That means that you can have vulnerability to certain kinds of attacks: snipers, sheer volume of fire (weapons with a high rate of fire, or large numbers of weapons). Area effect weapons (shrapnel, blast, incendiary, etc.) all have the potential to inflict harm in sufficient quantity. The only way this could NOT be true is to literally argue they are invulnerable on the battlefield, which is silly because a Company of space marines cannot charge across open ground against a tank regiment and take down said regiment with bolters, and that would be about what you would require fro them to shrug off the kind of weapons the Guard do have.

All you're basically saying is "depends on circumstances, its possible for a marine to avoid a certain attack" unless you're also going to guarantee a Marine perfect reflexes and complete omnisicence on top of invulnerability. Anything less and Melissa will have a point, because all she needs is the sheer probability that a Marine can be injured/killed by a weapon for her point to be valid.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:They do? Prove it >

Go read a codex.

IG deploys as combined arms in every chance it can, it's standard operating procedure. Armoured and aritllery units are considered inferior to infantry officers.

The IG also have problems among themselves, meaning these combines armies end up 'accidentally' firing on each other as well.

Also, all the things you've said presumes that the marines in question are stupid enough to walk into a trap/stand still and beg to be shot by artillery/and so on. No, they attack all at once, disrupt communications (good luck to call in artillery then!) and attack the command structure. snipe some officers and the men is confused and vulnerable.
In the Bl books the conditions doesnt tend to be good for the SM. But some are more comptent than others. It is up to the individual writer, and i cant affect them.

Melissia wrote:
Marines win through efficiently planned and executed surprise attacks and lightning attacks. When on the defensive, or when they are caught flat footed, they are at a disadvantage due to their limited numbers and limited support compared to the Imperial Guard.

Someone has clearly never read Brothers of the Snake.

Melissia wrote:
Given the amount of mistakes they make in BL novels, it is not hard to see them falling for such an ambush I indicated before.

You can provide a list of these mistakes right?

Melissia wrote:
And they make craptons of tactical errors, common-sense mistakes, forget briefings, etc in these situations, nevermind in normal situations.

As above.

Melissia wrote:
Most books don't have Marines fighting guard, but when they do, they only have them fight guard that's incompetently led.

You can give examples?

Melissia wrote:
A competent guard officer has more firepower at their command than a Marine sergeant-- even minor officers can call down artillery that can destroy a marine squad in the blink of an eye.

That would depend if the Guard officer has artillery on hand, or if said artillery has not been taken out.

Melissia wrote:
All they have to do is tie the Marines up, something that is not hard to do when you have a hundred guys at your command with lots of heavy weapons, mines, and so on.

A hundred guys isn’t going to last long. Three Astartes in Salvation’s Reach slaughtered over two hundred loxal and Sons of Sek before slaughtering many more.

Melissia wrote:
Almost all guard deployment have artillery, while most Marine deployments do not.

And almost all Astartes deployments will have orbital superiority. You know, it comes in the name.

From Let the Galaxy Burn, page 64


That's a heavy bolter tearing through Dark Angel power armor. Now, who has heavy bolters?

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Not what you say, but what you mean.

I said what I mean.

Marines win through efficiently planned and executed surprise attacks and lightning attacks. When on the defensive, or when they are caught flat footed, they are at a disadvantage due to their limited numbers and limited support compared to the Imperial Guard.

This is not entirely true.

"When on the defensive", if the Astartes are knowing they're on the defensive and have prepared the field--it makes a very very different ballgame.

"When caught flatfooted" is a ridiculous specification to make though, as anyone "when caught flatfooted" is at a disadvantage.

Given the amount of mistakes they make in BL novels, it is not hard to see them falling for such an ambush I indicated before.

Which BL novels?

If you're citing C.S. Goto, we're going need to have "The Talk".

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, for your information, black library only writes about the very hardest of space marine battles. They would not be exciting at all otherwise.

And they make craptons of tactical errors, common-sense mistakes, forget briefings, etc in these situations, nevermind in normal situations.

Most books don't have Marines fighting guard, but when they do, they only have them fight guard that's incompetently led. A competent guard officer has more firepower at their command than a Marine sergeant-- even minor officers can call down artillery that can destroy a marine squad in the blink of an eye. All they have to do is tie the Marines up, something that is not hard to do when you have a hundred guys at your command with lots of heavy weapons, mines, and so on.

On the contrary, when they have Guard fighting Marines it's generally a slaughter for the Guard until the Guard find some way to negate the advantages the Astartes have(usually by utilizing heavy weapons to crack the armor, followed by flamer teams to cook them alive inside their wargear).

And minor officers can't call down artillery right away. It's usually a case of "Wait your turn"...especially when Traitor Astartes are on the field.

However, summing things up:
Comparing the Astartes to 'modern' Special Forces is a bit silly. Their status as near mythical isn't a bad thing to base the comparison upon, but the thing to remember is that Astartes generally can call down strikes that would make modern operators absurdly jealous. The point of the Astartes is not simply to be "Special Forces", but to be a kind of symbol to the Imperial soldiery of the Emperor of Mankind. The Astartes are his "Sons", and what's more there's a reason they're referred to as "The Angels of Death".

When i said prove it, i meant prove that a krak against a marine is a gauranteed kill -_-
and they got to hit first. with an antitank weapon.
good luck.


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Also, Kanluwen made a good point.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, all the things you've said presumes that the marines in question are stupid enough to walk into a trap/stand still and beg to be shot by artillery/and so on.

Of course I do ,this is how they are depicted in the lore even if it is not necessarily the ideal.

Even the lore where they're the heroes they often do these sorts of things. *shrug*

Connor MacLeod wrote:From Let the Galaxy Burn, page 64

Before he could answer, roaring gunfire hammered through the cloisters. Brother Caiyne and brother Guis fell, heavy calibre shells tearing through their breastplates and exploding within their chest cavities. Brother Septimus staggered, most of his shoulder torn away by a glancing hit, his arm hanging by gory threads of bone and sinew. He fired back with his good arm until another shot took his head off.

That's a heavy bolter tearing through Dark Angel power armor. Now, who has heavy bolters?

“Tongues of fire blasted from the heavy bolters, reaching out towards the charging Ultramarines. Uriel saw the shells impact, bursting amongst the charging Space Marines, but not a single man fell, the blessed suits of powered armour withstanding the traitors’ fire. Idaeus triggered his jump pack and the rest of his squad followed suit, streaking forward with giant powered leaps.

Las-blasts filled the air, but the Ultramarines were too quick. Idaeus smashed down through the timber roof of the gun nest, a fearsome war cry bursting from his lips. He swung his power sword, decapitating a rebel trooper, and backhanded his pistol into another’s chest, smashing his ribcage to splinters.” - Ultramarines Omnibus, p.5 & 6 - Chains of Command

Astartes surviving multiple hits from heavy bolters.

Chilles and Xander catch a dozen of the enemy as they panic. They impose a crossfire that pulverises all. More emerge, firing back with lasguns and autocannon. A searing shot marks Xander's shoulder guard with a denting scorch. Memnes moves in around them, setting up a third part to the crossfire. Like the three suns with their inescapable shadows, the three tracing lines of their bolter fire pummel into and explode corrupted bags of flesh. Memnes chuckles as he does the Emperor's work.
Calignes moves from bunker to bunker, slaughtering. Through one doorway, he turns to face the stained features of a screaming heathen who opens up on him with an autocannon. Thumped backwards three paces by the succession of impacts to his carapace, Calignes grunts. His boltgun has been blown from his fist and his smallest finger has been vaporised. The autocannon cycles suddenly on empty, and as the cultist gropes for a reload, Calignes rushes him, exploding his head with a clap of his augmented fists.
The Iron Snakes move deeper into the facility. Between two low concrete blockhouses, Maced is rushed by twenty cultists who stream over him like ants, bludgeoning him with girder strips and wrenches. He laughs as he kills them, crushing necks, splintering limbs, punching his fists through bodies. His battledress now dressed with blood, he churns through the gore into the control room and tears the cultist he finds at the primary console into two twitching pieces.

Astartes taking point blank hits from an autocannon.

Tell me which lore you read? i have never seen anything o what you suggest (except for some overconfident battlehungry guys that charge into a ork horde, kills hundreds and then die. but that is not what you meant, i think.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:When i said prove it, i meant prove that a krak against a marine is a gauranteed kill -_-

I didn't say that.

I said it would reliably kill or disable them. Depending on where the explosion emanated from, it could merely disable, or it could kill outright. Yes, Marines can be disabled without being killed. A marine without legs is vulnerable to any number of finishes. A marine with his chest blown out is likely unconscious at best. His head caved in or blown off, he's dead.

Not meaning Gree, but Melissa.

Page 194


Chapter War, page 194




Wolfblade, page 252. Single shots can be resisted, multiple fire difficult.




Fallen Angels, Page 313



Grey Knights, page 99

I can keep this up all day

Kill=disable for battlefield purposes. If the marines lose, then moreso.


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I think Kanluwen's post is a good one to end this thread. I'm out.

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, all the things you've said presumes that the marines in question are stupid enough to walk into a trap/stand still and beg to be shot by artillery/and so on.

Of course I do ,this is how they are depicted in the lore even if it is not necessarily the ideal.

Even the lore where they're the heroes they often do these sorts of things. *shrug*

Such as when? For every one time they're shown as being caught by surprise, there's twenty in which they're infallible battle-gods.

Actually it is the ones where they're depicted as infallible battlegods that is where they make the most tactical mistakes and bone-headed decisions--- it's really only through the armor of plot combined with their enemies making their own stupid mistakes that they won in these situations. The ones where Marines are depicted as lower in power they tend to be portrayed as more intelligent and competent...


Some BL writers think that armor and biological enhancements are a replacement for tactical know-how, but they aren't.