40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.

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**Kanluwen**

Except when you have armor which can stop tank rounds and biological enhancements which can allow you to punch your fist clean through someone's sternum---your tactics are going to be very different.

**Safor**

Personally I believe that SM: are fit ONLY for the role of special forces.
Of course SF can be used in the CoM supporting conventional troops.
If they attempt to fight an larger troop conventionally they would be gunned down or blown to pieces due to their high target priority and small numbers. It would be totally sensible to collapse four skyscrapers on an squad of SM:s considering their high cost, priority, rarity and danger for own units.

**Connor MacLeod**

If Space MArine armor was invulnerable to anything but the heaviest anti-tank weapons.. why do bolters penetrate?

**Melissia**

Kanluwen wrote:Except when you have armor which can stop tank rounds

They don't, really. The predator is the exception to this, but it's a light tank which is very lightly armed and intended for mobility despite its depiction in tabletop. Even then though, the autocannon is gonna really put a hurt on a marine.

**Connor MacLeod**

What are we defining as a tank round? A modern APFSDS has around 7000 kg*m/s of momentum, and around 6-7 MJ worth of KE. What weapon has a Space Marine stood up to that mathces that, out of curiosity?

Edit: Considering a tank round hitting a marine would send him flying back tens if not hundreds of metres on a single impact, I'd be hard pressed to think of a single example offhand in any of the fluff. The closest that you get is MAYBE with termiantor armor.

**Melissia**

Connor MacLeod wrote:What are we defining as a tank round? A modern APFSDS has around 7000 kg*m/s of momentum, and around 6-7 MJ worth of KE. What weapon has a Space Marine stood up to that mathces that, out of curiosity?

An autocannon probably. However, even then, I really don't think the armor can reliably stop multiple direct hits at a time.

**Gree**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Chapter War, page 194

Does it say how many heavy bolters were firing at the two?

And now for some reason the site is merging the quotes together, I apologise.

Connor MacLeod wrote: Wolfblade, page 252. Single shots can be resisted, multiple fire difficult.
/quote]

A crack, how impressive.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Fallen Angels, Page 313

I'm inclined to chalk it up as an outlier, considering they struck together at the same time appearantly.

Connor MacLeod wrote: An autocannon was a loud, inefficient, old-fashioned weapon that fired shells of sufficient size to crack even power armour.

That's crack, not penetrate.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
I can keep this up all day

So can I.

**Connor MacLeod**

1.) We don't know how many shots or how many heavy bolters from Chapter War, but that's really beside the point since I'm not trying to argue absolute vulnerability.

2.) Outlier goes both ways, so I wouldn't go invoking that unless you have alot better evidence.

It's acually more plausible that way since a.) no body armor is guaranteed to provide 100% immunity Even in Real life. More to the point, there is a difference between glancing and direct hits. It's one of the reasons why modern armor is sloped or angled - it makes it harder to penetrate.

Also from Salamanders page 236

Spoiler:

Also from Fallen Angels again page 369

Spoiler:

to be fair there's also this from Fallen angels page 278

Spoiler:

So it can resist (or at least be deflected away by) without penetration, but then again I am not arguing that heavy bolters have to always penetrate - I'm simply pointing out that they don't have total immunity to autocannon or heavy bolter fire. That's actually the point. some people seem to be arguing that Space Marine armor has complete and utter immunity from both small arms and heavy weapons up to the most powerful anti-tank types. EG that you literally need a plasma cannon, melta, or lascannon to defeat it, which is, frankly, silly.

**Gree**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
2.) Outlier goes both ways, so I wouldn't go invoking that unless you have alot better evidence.

I see no reason to doubt my examples.

Connor MacLeod wrote:It's acually more plausible that way since a.) no body armor is guaranteed to provide 100% immunity Even in Real life. More to the point, there is a difference between glancing and direct hits. It's one of the reasons why modern armor is sloped or angled - it makes it harder to penetrate.

I'm not arging absolute invulrnability. In an Astarte stands and does nothing on frotn of multiple autocannons than that would be bad for him. I'm arguing it's simply not very effective.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Chugging thunder erupted from above Tsu’gan as heavy bolter and autocannon emplacements started to eat through their ammunition belts.

Crying out in rage and anguish, Tsu’gan saw three of his battle-brothers threaded by munitions fire. Power armour was tough; tough enough to withstand such weapons as these, but the sheer rate
of shells increased their potency threefold.

Unfortunately, in Tsu’gan’s eyes at least, N’keln had not been one of those caught in the ash slide. Barking swift commands from what was left of the ridge peak, he attempted to restore some
coherency to his forces. Pinned down in the basin, though, the stricken Salamanders were getting slaughtered.
...
“Use the transports as armoured cover.”

Excellent, we have a statement of them being tough enought to withstand them. Thank you for helping my argument.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Also from Fallen Angels again page 369

Force Commander Lamnos lay in a coma, his primary heart and his oolitic kidney ruptured by an autocannon blast..

So he's not dead right?

Connor MacLeod wrote:So it can resist (or at least be deflected away by) without penetration, but then again I am not arguing that heavy bolters have to always penetrate - I'm simply pointing out that they don't have total immunity to autocannon or heavy bolter fire. That's actually the point. some people seem to be arguing that Space Marine armor has complete and utter immunity from both small arms and heavy weapons up to the most powerful anti-tank types. EG that you literally need a plasma cannon, melta, or lascannon to defeat it, which is, frankly, silly.

I guess if you took an Astartes and had him stand still it would do something.

Nightbringer, page 161
Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flash. The men who had been awaiting rescue in the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart in seconds by the heavy calibre, armour piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in midthigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.
The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolter rounds were ineffective against the armoured undersides of the gunships.
Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter's shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt the powerful impacts hammer into his backplate. He offered a small prayer of thanks to his armour for standing firm against the traitorous fire.

This is stated to be a heavy autocannon and Learchus takes multiple hits.

Ghostmaker

“Small arms!” Ortiz ordered. “Use the pintle mounts!” As he spoke, he cranked round the
autocannon mounted on his vehicle’s rear and angled it at the nearest monster.
The killing started. The rasping belch of flamers reached his ears and he heard the screams of
men cooking inside their superheated tank hulls. The Chaos Marine he had first spotted reached the
Basilisk ahead of his and began to chop its shell like firewood with a chain-axe. Sparks blew up
from punctured metal. Sparks, flames, metal shards, meat.
Screaming, Ortiz trained his mounted gun on the World Eater and fired. He shot long at first, but
corrected before the monster could turn. The creature didn’t seem to feel the first hits. Ortiz
clenched the trigger and streamed the heavy tracer fire at the red spectre. At last the figure
shuddered, convulsed and then blew apart.
Ortiz cursed. The World Eaters soaked up the sort of punishment that would kill a Leman Russ.
He realised his ammo drum was almost empty. He was snapping it free and shouting to his
bombardier for a fresh one when the shadow fell on him.

Obviously not as tough as a Russ, but it does take pretty much the entire ammo drum at very close range to finallty kill it.

First and Only

In the centre of the Shriven retaliation, Gaunt saw the first of the Chaos Space Marines, a huge
horned beast, centuries old and bearing the twisted markings of the Iron Warriors chapter. The
monstrosity exhorted his mutated troops to victory with great howls from his augmented larynx. His
ancient, ornate boltgun spat death into the Tanith ranks. Sergeant Grell was vaporised by one of the
first hits, two of his fire team a moment later.
“Target him!” Gaunt yelled at Bragg, and the giant turned his huge firepower in the general
direction with no particular success. The Chaos Marine proceeded to punch butchering fire into the
Vitrian front line. Then he exploded. Headless, armless, his legs and torso rocked for a moment and
then fell.
Gaunt nodded his grim thanks to Trooper Melyr and his missile launcher. Lasfire and screaming
autogun rounds wailed down from the Shriven units at the elevator assembly. Gaunt ducked into
cover behind some freighting pallets and found himself sharing the cover with two Vitrians who
were busy changing the power cells of their las guns.

Bragg was noted to have an assault cannon earlier.

Trooper Bragg had an assault cannon which he had liberated from a pintle mount some weeks
before. Gaunt had never seen a man fire one without the aid of power armour’s recoil compensators
or lift capacity before. Bragg grimaced and strained with the effort of steadying the howling weapon
with its six cycling bands, and his aim was its usual miserable standard. He killed dozens of the
enemy anyway. Not to mention a maglev train.

“‘We’re exposed out here,’ Bulle muttered. ‘Let’s get back into the forest.’Tarvitz was amused. Bulle made it sound as if the stalk thickets were safe ground.Giant forks of lightning, savage and yellow-white phosphorescent, were searing down into the open space, explosively scorching theearth. Though each fork only existed for a nanosecond, they seemed solid and real, like fundamental, physical structures, likeupturned, thorny trees. Three Astartes, including Lucius, were struck. Secure in their Mark IV plate, they shrugged off the massive,detonating impacts and laughed as aftershock electrical blooms crackled like garlands of blue wire around their armour for a few seconds.”

“The storm above grew still more ferocious. Five more men were struck. One of them, Ulzoras, was actually knocked off his feet. They saw fused, glassy craters in the ground where lightning had earthed with the force of penetrator missiles. The shield-storm seemed to be pressing down on them, like a lid across the sky, pressurising the air, and squeezing them in an atmospheric vice.” / Horus Rising, p.233 - **

They resist lightning withthe force of penetrator missles.

Melissia wrote:Actually it is the ones where they're depicted as infallible battlegods that is where they make the most tactical mistakes and bone-headed decisions--- it's really only through the armor of plot combined with their enemies making their own stupid mistakes that they won in these situations. The ones where Marines are depicted as lower in power they tend to be portrayed as more intelligent and competent...

You can provide examples of course?

**KplKeegan**

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Graham McNiel also write that Uriel Ventris stared down the Night Bringer in the first Ultramarines Book, which in the reality of what a Ctan (shard) is, should never be possible?

Space Marines are head and shoulders above a regular Guardsman, however, its the Space Marines sheer resilience and psycho conditioning that makes them shine. They have two hearts, better bone density, glands and senses that can detect and minimize toxins and nueral diseases, a gland that makes them spit tar (or something like that), heightened senses and reflexes, and the psychological training to feel no fear and maintaining calm, and being able to maintain supreme cognition in the heat of battle.

Having a Space Marine waltz into a warzone where regular Guardsmen need hazard rebreathers and equipment is a much bigger plus than super strength.

However, this advantage does not make them 'invulnerable'. The comparison of a Space Marine running through las gun fire is a stilted one, due from the las guns design moreso than the operator firing it. Las bolts cauterize flesh when they pass through a solid body, preventing one from bleeding out, so a Space Marine's physiology should, in all respects, be able to staunch the most severe trauma from a las bolt (unless its a head shot).

Unlike the bolter round which is a mini rocket-propelled bullet.

**Gree**

KplKeegan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Graham McNiel also write that Uriel Ventris stared down the Night Bringer in the first Ultramarines Book, which in the reality of what a Ctan (shard) is, should never be possible?

First of all that was before C'than shards were invented and the C'tan was noted to be heavily starved and weakened.

KplKeegan wrote:
However, this advantage does not make them 'invulnerable'. The comparison of a Space Marine running through las gun fire is a stilted one, due from the las guns design moreso than the operator firing it. Las bolts cauterize flesh when they pass through a solid body, preventing one from bleeding out, so a Space Marine's physiology should, in all respects, be able to staunch the most severe trauma from a las bolt (unless its a head shot).

Unlike the bolter round which is a mini rocket-propelled bullet.

Are you claiming that power amror offers no protection again lasguns?

**Kanluwen**

Melissia wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Except when you have armor which can stop tank rounds
They don't, really. The predator is the exception to this, but it's a light tank which is very lightly armed and intended for mobility despite its depiction in tabletop. Even then though, the autocannon is gonna really put a hurt on a marine.

And what you're missing is that most heretic forces are using tanks with cannon which are equivalent to autocannons.
The Urdeshi pattern "Reaver" is a good example of this.

But really. You missed the point anyways. When you have armor which can stop most forms of man portable weaponry and requires heavy weapons teams to engage the target--your tactics are not going to be the same as the Guard's tactics.

Imperial Armour 2 does a bang-up job talking about how the Astartes will defend locations: mainly with Sentry Guns bearing the bulk of the defense, Devastator Squads in elevated and heavily fortified positions and precisely planned 'killzones' to maximize the Devastators' and Sentry Guns' effectiveness while mitigating the enemy's advantage of numbers.

**iproxtaco**

Melissia wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Melissia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes, and probably easier.
No.

Ok then. I'm still right but whatever.
No, you're not. Marines are only perceived as gods upon the battlefield. They are not actually so. In truth they are merely supremely competent soldiers, not infallible battlegods.

Maybe so, but I can see a marine taking a tank shot from one that looks like it could have come from WWII and then proceeding to punch through it. That's not hard to believe.

**KplKeegan**

Gree wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Graham McNiel also write that Uriel Ventris stared down the Night Bringer in the first Ultramarines Book, which in the reality of what a Ctan (shard) is, should never be possible?

First of all that was before C'than shards were invented and the C'tan was noted to be heavily starved and weakened.

But it could shread Uriel Ventris' keister with a flick of its finger.

KplKeegan wrote:
However, this advantage does not make them 'invulnerable'. The comparison of a Space Marine running through las gun fire is a stilted one, due from the las guns design moreso than the operator firing it. Las bolts cauterize flesh when they pass through a solid body, preventing one from bleeding out, so a Space Marine's physiology should, in all respects, be able to staunch the most severe trauma from a las bolt (unless its a head shot).

Unlike the bolter round which is a mini rocket-propelled bullet.

Are you claiming that power amror offers no protection again lasguns?

**Connor MacLeod**

Gree wrote:
I see no reason to doubt my examples.

And you're an infallible arbiter of what is right and wrong in 40K, right? So why should your examples be "more valid" than my own, pray tell?

I'm not arging absolute invulrnability. In an Astarte stands and does nothing on frotn of multiple autocannons than that would be bad for him. I'm arguing it's simply not very effective.

Which is fine. That's supported by plenty of examples. But they cna't just stand there and take autocannon fire indefinitely. There are limits to the amount of punishment an Astartes can take, and they know that. That's why they seek to minimize

Excellent, we have a statement of them being tough enought to withstand them. Thank you for helping my argument.

Uh no. sustained heavy bolter and autocannon fire are hurting them. Or did you think Tsu'Gan was upset because "oh no, they scratched the green paint job?" Or maybe you think they decided to use the rhinos for protection because the sun was too bright?

So he's not dead right?

Uh, no. but being in a coma is not exactly trivial, is it?

I guess if you took an Astartes and had him stand still it would do something.

Why is it only applicable if he's "standing still?"

Nightbringer, page 161
Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flash. The men who had been awaiting rescue in the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart in seconds by the heavy calibre, armour piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in midthigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.
The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolter rounds were ineffective against the armoured undersides of the gunships.
Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter's shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt the powerful impacts hammer into his backplate. He offered a small prayer of thanks to his armour for standing firm against the traitorous fire.

Sounds like he wasn't at all certain that the armor would stand up to the fire. Not surprising considering from the same source

Autocannon fire sprayed a group of Space Marines from Sergeant Elerna’s squad. Four went down; only two got back up.

Ultramarines omnibus, page 242

This is stated to be a heavy autocannon and Learchus takes multiple hits.

It can't be all that powerful, since it doesn't impart much momentum (on sustained fire) to the Sergeant. A 30mm Avenger round rould for example probably have driven the sergeant into the girl he was protecting due to sheer momentum.

“Small arms!” Ortiz ordered. “Use the pintle mounts!” As he spoke, he cranked round the
autocannon mounted on his vehicle’s rear and angled it at the nearest monster.
The killing started. The rasping belch of flamers reached his ears and he heard the screams of
men cooking inside their superheated tank hulls. The Chaos Marine he had first spotted reached the
Basilisk ahead of his and began to chop its shell like firewood with a chain-axe. Sparks blew up
from punctured metal. Sparks, flames, metal shards, meat.

Screaming, Ortiz trained his mounted gun on the World Eater and fired. He shot long at first, but
corrected before the monster could turn. The creature didn’t seem to feel the first hits. Ortiz
clenched the trigger and streamed the heavy tracer fire at the red spectre. At last the figure
shuddered, convulsed and then blew apart.

Ortiz cursed. The World Eaters soaked up the sort of punishment that would kill a Leman Russ.
He realised his ammo drum was almost empty. He was snapping it free and shouting to his
bombardier for a fresh one when the shadow fell on him.

Obviously not as tough as a Russ, but it does take pretty much the entire ammo drum at very close range to finallty kill it. You also note he had to compensate for his initial salvo - how many orunds is that? How many was he carrying?

Wasn't this the same scene where the ghosts show up and save them by driving off these World Eaters? It can't take heavy vehicle firepower if light infantry can do it.

First and Only

Bragg was noted to have an assault cannon earlier.

And he's also known as "Try Again" Bragg because he tends to miss, as the quote indicates. As I recall, first and only also demonstrated lasguns on max and long las do a rather good job of killing Marines if you aim right.

But hey, if we're opening the door to CSM examples, I can always toss in examples from stuff like Dark Creed too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Imperial Armour 2 does a bang-up job talking about how the Astartes will defend locations: mainly with Sentry Guns bearing the bulk of the defense, Devastator Squads in elevated and heavily fortified positions and precisely planned 'killzones' to maximize the Devastators' and Sentry Guns' effectiveness while mitigating the enemy's advantage of numbers.

That's true. There's also IA3 and the Taros campaign, where the Raptors chapter managed to fight a stationary conflict against the Tau and fought them off for what.. most of a day?

Alot of it will depend on the kind of terrain they're fighting in. If there's some pretty hefty cover or other form of protection, then Astartes can defend a position quite well. That's what the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors were good at, after all.

**Sturmtruppen**

In comparison to real-world equivalents, Stormtroopers are Special Forces in regards of striking deep behind enemy lines, being stealthy and then raising hell.

Space Marines are more or less Gods. They descend from the literal God on Earth, the Emperor. Mankind sees them as angels. Fluff wise, each Space Marine is a one-man-army. Obviously, this can't be reflected in the actual game. But anyway, in comparison to real-life, they're of a whole different brand of military to anything we've got at the moment. We've got SAS and Navy SEALs who are closest to Stormtroopers in regards of capability and tactics, but we don't have genetically and bionically augmented super-soldiers yet.

**Gree**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And you're an infallible arbiter of what is right and wrong in 40K, right? So why should your examples be "more valid" than my own, pray tell?

Several of them involve merely cracking power armor. It’s not exactly what I would call a solid Anti-Astartes weapon..

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which is fine. That's supported by plenty of examples. But they cna't just stand there and take autocannon fire indefinitely. There are limits to the amount of punishment an Astartes can take, and they know that. That's why they seek to minimize

I don’t believe I ever claimed they could take autocannon fire indefinitely. But I would assume you need sustained hits from many autocannons (Like the in the Salamander example) to be effective in a combat situation.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Uh no. sustained heavy bolter and autocannon fire are hurting them.

From multiple cannons in a fortified position. That’s not what I would call an effective weapon against Astartes.

Correct me If I’m wrong, but you seem to think that autocannons saw through power armor like swiss cheese.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Uh, no. but being in a coma is not exactly trivial, is it?

Once again he’s not dead.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Why is it only applicable if he's "standing still?"

Because in a combat situation an Astartes with his speed and reflexes would be moving and firing and killing.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Sounds like he wasn't at all certain that the armor would stand up to the fire. Not surprising considering from the same source

It doesn’t sound like he was uncertain at all to me.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Ultramarines omnibus, page 242

That doesn’t specify they were dead. Plus that was autocannon fire from a whole dug-in PDF company.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
It can't be all that powerful, since it doesn't impart much momentum (on sustained fire) to the Sergeant. A 30mm Avenger round rould for example probably have driven the sergeant into the girl he was protecting due to sheer momentum.

Or perhaps Astartes are just that tough?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
You also note he had to compensate for his initial salvo - how many orunds is that? How many was he carrying?

You don’t know how many rounds he had, but ‘’at last’’ indicates he shot for a while.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Wasn't this the same scene where the ghosts show up and save them by driving off these World Eaters? It can't take heavy vehicle firepower if light infantry can do it.

You mean the same scene that had practically the entire regiment ambush 4-5 World Eaters and hit them with everything they had?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And he's also known as "Try Again" Bragg because he tends to miss, as the quote indicates. .

And we don't have confirmation that he actually missed.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
As I recall, first and only also demonstrated lasguns on max and long las do a rather good job of killing Marines if you aim right.

Not quite.

Gaunt was right in the thing’s face. He could do nothing but lunge with his chainsword, driving
the shrieking blade deep into the Chaos Marine’s armoured torso. The toothed blade screamed and
protested, and then whined and smoked as the serrated, whirling cutting edge meshed and glued as it
ate into the monster’s viscous and toughened innards.
The Iron Warrior stumbled back, bellowing in pain and rage. The chainsword, smoking and
shorting as it finally jammed, impaled its chest. Reeking ichor and tissue sprayed across the
commissar and the elevator doorway.
Gaunt knew he could do no more. He dropped to the floor as the stricken creature rose again,
hoping against hope.
His prayers were answered. The rearing thing was struck once, twice… four or five times by
carefully placed las-shots which tore into it and spun it around. Gaunt somehow knew it the sniper
Larkin who had provided these marksman blasts.
On one knee, the creature rose and raged again, most of its upper armour punctured or shredded,
smoke rising and black liquid spilling from the grisly wounds to its face, neck and chest.
A final, powerful las-blast, close range and full-power, took its I head off.
Gaunt looked round to see the wounded Corporal Zeezo standing on the barricade.
The Vitrian grinned, despite the pain from his wound. “I went against orders, I’m afraid,” he
began. “I reset my gun for full charge.”

That's not exactly a good jod considering how much punishment the Astartes took before finally going down.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

But hey, if we're opening the door to CSM examples, I can always toss in examples from stuff like Dark Creed too.

We are talking about Marines’ aren’t we? Why wouldn’t we include Chaos Examples?

KplKeegan wrote:
But it could shread Uriel Ventris' keister with a flick of its finger.

And that’s why he bluffs it. The Nightbringer already slaughtered several Astarte with ease. Have you actually read the novel?

**Seaward**

So, essentially, we've concluded that as long as someone like Melissia's writing the Marines, and they walk head-on into an ambush and behave exactly as he dictates, they'll lose to Guard?

I'll buy that.

Different writers write Space Marine tactics differently. ADB with Raven Guard? Yeah, those guys will out-think any Guardsman around. Graham McNeill with Ultramarines? Maybe not so much.

**KplKeegan**

Gree wrote: And that’s why he bluffs it. The Nightbringer already slaughtered several Astarte with ease. Have you actually read the novel?

Yes. But he should've never been able to bluff it with a Melta Bomb in the first place.

**Gree**

KplKeegan wrote:
Gree wrote: And that’s why he bluffs it. The Nightbringer already slaughtered several Astarte with ease. Have you actually read the novel?

Yes. But he should've never been able to bluff it with a Melta Bomb in the first place.

He was bluffing to collapse the entire mineshaft and trap everyone there so the Nightbringer would starve. He's not trying to kill the Nightbringer with a meltabomb.

Said C'tan was already badly weakened and starved from millions of years of imprisonment.

**Connor MacLeod**

Gree wrote:Several of them involve merely cracking power armor. It’s not exactly what I would call solid.

Modern tank armor cracks when it's hit too. Doesn't mean it can stand up to repeated hits from the same weapon. Hell, modern rigid plates for military body armor crack on hit as well - its part of the protective properties, as well as the main reason why body armor isn't 100% perfect either.

I don’t believe I ever claimed they could take autocannon fire indefinitely. But I would assume you need sustained hits from many autocannons (Like the in the Salamander example) to be effective in a combat situation.

Depends on the autocannon and where it's hit.

From multiple cannons in a fortified position. That’s not what I would call an effective weapon against Astartes.

Correct me If I’m wrong, but you seem to think that autocannons saw through power armor like swiss cheese.

No, I'm saying they can penetrate armor. You seem to think that the only possible way autocannon or heavy bolter fire could *possibly* harm an astartes is if he sits in place for a prolonged length of time. Which of course begs the question of why they even bother firing bolters at each other if that were the case. since, you know, regular bolters can penetrate astartes armor too.

Once again he’s not dead.

Because Space Marines fight whilst in a coma all the time, right? That's why the only way you can be sure they're stopped is if they're dead.

Because in a combat situation an Astartes with his speed and reflexes would be moving and firing and killing.

So? Are you saying a Space MArine is impossible to hit when he's moving even by automatic fire?

That doesn’t specify they were dead. Plus that was autocannon fire from a whole dug-in PDF company.

I love how you simultaneoulsy declare "it doesn't matter unless they're dead" and somehow imply that an entire company is going ot be equipped with nothing but autocannons.

Or perhaps Astartes are just that tough?

So you're now claiming Astartes are so tough that they can actually ignore physics? Or are oyu going to change tactics and suddenly decide we can only apply physics (EG what a suit of power armor can and can't stand up to) when you arbitrarily choose?

You don’t know how many rounds he had, but ‘’at last’’ indicates he shot for a while.

so you don't know how many shots it takes. Weren't you just criticizing me for citing vague examples like that?

You mean the same scene that had practically the entire regiment ambush 4-5 World Eaters and hit them with everything they had?

As I recall there was no indication it required the whole regiment to concentrate all its firepower on 4-5 world eaters. You know, like they'd all converge on that same spot and wipe them out.

And we have confirmation that he actually missed.

Which is kinda the point. Using Bragg as a benchmark for anything isn't much since his accuracy is pretty bad. You do realize "poor accuracy" is going to not only affect whether or not something hits him, but important factors like "angles at which bulllets strike the target?" Or did you forget that angle matters to penetration?

Not quite.

Gaunt was right in the thing’s face. He could do nothing but lunge with his chainsword, driving
the shrieking blade deep into the Chaos Marine’s armoured torso. The toothed blade screamed and
protested, and then whined and smoked as the serrated, whirling cutting edge meshed and glued as it
ate into the monster’s viscous and toughened innards.
The Iron Warrior stumbled back, bellowing in pain and rage. The chainsword, smoking and
shorting as it finally jammed, impaled its chest. Reeking ichor and tissue sprayed across the
commissar and the elevator doorway.
Gaunt knew he could do no more. He dropped to the floor as the stricken creature rose again,
hoping against hope.
His prayers were answered. The rearing thing was struck once, twice… four or five times by
carefully placed las-shots which tore into it and spun it around. Gaunt somehow knew it the sniper
Larkin who had provided these marksman blasts.
On one knee, the creature rose and raged again, most of its upper armour punctured or shredded,
smoke rising and black liquid spilling from the grisly wounds to its face, neck and chest.
A final, powerful las-blast, close range and full-power, took its I head off.
Gaunt looked round to see the wounded Corporal Zeezo standing on the barricade.
The Vitrian grinned, despite the pain from his wound. “I went against orders, I’m afraid,” he
began. “I reset my gun for full charge.”

Yeah, except that last bit where the las blast takes his head off. Space Marine smay be tough, but they sorta need a head and brain to function.

**Gree**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Modern tank armor cracks when it's hit too. Doesn't mean it can stand up to repeated hits from the same weapon. Hell, modern rigid plates for military body armor crack on hit as well - its part of the protective properties, as well as the main reason why body armor isn't 100% perfect either.

Than that’s hardly cutting through the armor with ease now is it?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Depends on the autocannon and where it's hit.

Well in this case we have a solid example of an Astartes taking point blank rounds from an autocannon and living.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
You seem to think that the only possible way autocannon or heavy bolter fire could *possibly* harm an astartes is if he sits in place for a prolonged length of time.

That’s what I’ve gathered from the various quotes yes. I see no reason to believe otherwise. Why would an Astartes stand still?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which of course begs the question of why they even bother firing bolters at each other if that were the case. since, you know, regular bolters can penetrate astartes armor too.

Because those Astartes also move fast and can fire entire clips if needed.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because Space Marines fight whilst in a coma all the time, right? That's why the only way you can be sure they're stopped is if they're dead.

Once again, he’s not dead.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

So? Are you saying a Space MArine is impossible to hit when he's moving even by automatic fire?

Not impossible, simply highly unlikely.

This is what I’m talking about.

Hunt for Voldorious

As Shrike led his squads across the open ground a heavy bolter in a nearby
bunker opened fire. The earth churned as dozens of large-calibre shells exploded at
the Raven Guards’ feet. Shrike activated his jump pack and, followed by his
Command squad, leapt through the air towards the heavy bolter position.
The airborne charge took only seconds, but in that brief interval the captain
located his target and fixed all his attentions upon it. As he closed, suppressive fire
from other Raven Guard units exploded across the heavy weapon’s gun shield,
causing the traitor militia trooper manning it to duck down at the very instant he
should have been firing.
Captain Shrike raised his glittering talons high as he came in to land, slashing
downwards and cutting the heavy bolter in two. Then he was on the fortified upper
deck of the bunker and the gunner was scrabbling away from him. The man’s face
was contorted in terror, his dark grey fatigues soiled where he had voided his bowels
in panic. Shrike had no inclination to show mercy, but the man was less of a threat
than the dozen or so of his fellow traitors spilling from a hatch in the deck.

Granted, Shrike has a jump pack.

Legends of the Space Marines

The hot breath of the two Astartes was white in the cold as they panted like predators sated from the hunt. But this hunt was not finished. For from down the tracks came the sound of steel feet on the rocks, and the roaring voice of an engine. And before the Astartes could ready themselves, from the frozen darkness lumbered a Sentinel walker.
Many of you have seen such a thing, and perhaps even fought alongside them, for they are commonly used by the armies of the Imperial Guard. This, however, was different. Its two legs were reinforced with sturdy armour plates and its cab, in which its traitor driver cowered, was as heavily plated as a tank. It had been made with techniques forgotten to the masters of the forge worlds today, and it bore as its weapon a pair of autocannon. This was no mere spindly scouting machine! This was an engine of destruction.
“Despair not!” shouted the headstrong Hrothgar as this monster came into view. “You shall not have to face this machine, old man, wizened and decrepit as you are! I shall ensure this traitor’s eyes are on me alone. All you need do, venerable one, is fire that missile launcher of yours!”
Daegalan had it in mind to scold the Blood Claw for his insolence, but it was not the time for such things.
Hrothgar ran into view of the Sentinel. He fired off shots from his bolt pistol, and the Sentinel turned to hunt him through the valley’s shadows. But Hrothgar was fast and valiant, and even as the Sentinel’s mighty guns opened fire he sprinted from rock to rock, from flinty fissure to deep shadow, and every shell spat by the Sentinel’s guns was wasted against unyielding stone. At that time it happened a flurry of snow was blown up by Mother Fenris’ icy breath and Hrothgar ventured closer still, diving between the metal feet of the Sentinel, knowing that he was too fast and his movements too unpredictable for the machine’s pilot to fire upon him with accuracy.
So infuriated was the pilot of the Sentinel that he forgot, as lesser soldiers than Astartes are wont to do, the true threat he was facing. For Daegalan the Long Fang had indeed taken aim with his missile launcher, the only weapon the Astartes had between them that might pierce the machine’s armour. With a roar the missile fired, and with a vicious bark it exploded. The rear of the Sentinel was torn clear away, and the pilot mortally wounded. Exposed to the cold night, the blood from his many wounds froze. But he did not have long to suffer this fate, for Hrothgar the Blood Claw climbed up the legs of the Sentinel and tore out the traitor’s spine with his bare hands.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
I love how you simultaneoulsy declare "it doesn't matter unless they're dead" and somehow imply that an entire company is going ot be equipped with nothing but autocannons.

I never claimed or implied that the entire company had autocannons. It would be reasonable to assume that a company-sized formation would posses quite a lot of supper weapons?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
So you're now claiming Astartes are so tough that they can actually ignore physics? Or are oyu going to change tactics and suddenly decide we can only apply physics (EG what a suit of power armor can and can't stand up to) when you arbitrarily choose?

I am not saying they ignore physics, it is just apparent to me that Astartes are tough enough to absorb the momentum.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
so you don't know how many shots it takes. Weren't you just criticizing me for citing vague examples like that?

Because you didn’t really provide any indication as to why the quote was good or not.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which is kinda the point. Using Bragg as a benchmark for anything isn't much since his accuracy is pretty bad. You do realize "poor accuracy" is going to not only affect whether or not something hits him, but important factors like "angles at which bulllets strike the target?" Or did you forget that angle matters to penetration?

So in other words you can’t confirm that he missed.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Yeah, except that last bit where the las blast takes his head off. Space Marine smay be tough, but they sorta need a head and brain to function.

I don’t believe I ever claimed they could survive without a head.

**Joey**

iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field, are equipped with high-grade Carapace armour with more powerful lasguns that require a back-pack power source. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.

No, they deep-strike behind an enemy landraider, blow it up, then die.

**Melissia**

Kanluwen wrote:And what you're missing is that most heretic forces are using tanks with cannon which are equivalent to autocannons.

It was a discussion about Guard, actually. The argument was taht your beloved Cadians could not take down a space marine squad in an ambush. Apparently Space Marines are so damn powerful that nothing but another space marine can take them down.

**BrainDeleted**

Of course they could. A hoard of kittens could kill a marine in an ambush in one out of three million attempts.

I think they have a very low chance of success though. A lot of things would have to go their way. They would have to be abnormally competent guardsmen and the marines would have to be abnormally incompetent for marines...And still this does not guarantee success. They would need a lot of environmental factors going their way as well. Throw in a hefty dosage of luck...And I think they'll wipe out the squad maybe 10% of the time with minimal loses. Maybe ensure something like mutual destruction 20% of the time. Probably just get cut through like a wheat field come harvest time in most circumstances though.

**Connor MacLeod**

Gree wrote:
Than that’s hardly cutting through the armor with ease now is it?

no its not. Its a good thing that I never argued they cna easily penetrate, is it? Do you like constructing strawmen, or what?

Well in this case we have a solid example of an Astartes taking point blank rounds from an autocannon and living.

Yeah so? We have examples of Ragnar blackmane surviving a heavy stubber round ot the temple. Should we assume Space Marine skin is kevlar now?

That’s what I’ve gathered from the various quotes yes. I see no reason to believe otherwise. Why would an Astartes stand still?

Because you contraidcted yourself? You claim that its impossible to damage an Astartes with heavy weapons unless he's standing still, yet you also claim that most of my examples are precisely that (where Astartes get hit by large quantities of weapons fire - which you claim shouldn't be happening because of how agile the Astartes are.)

Nevermind that you're basically claiming they are immune to bolter fire for much the same reasons - unless we are supposed to believe bolters are more powerful than heavy bolters.

Because those Astartes also move fast and can fire entire clips if needed.

This is what I’m talking about.

Hunt for Voldorious

As Shrike led his squads across the open ground a heavy bolter in a nearby
bunker opened fire. The earth churned as dozens of large-calibre shells exploded at
the Raven Guards’ feet. Shrike activated his jump pack and, followed by his
Command squad, leapt through the air towards the heavy bolter position.
The airborne charge took only seconds, but in that brief interval the captain
located his target and fixed all his attentions upon it. As he closed, suppressive fire
from other Raven Guard units exploded across the heavy weapon’s gun shield,
causing the traitor militia trooper manning it to duck down at the very instant he
should have been firing.
Captain Shrike raised his glittering talons high as he came in to land, slashing
downwards and cutting the heavy bolter in two. Then he was on the fortified upper
deck of the bunker and the gunner was scrabbling away from him. The man’s face
was contorted in terror, his dark grey fatigues soiled where he had voided his bowels
in panic. Shrike had no inclination to show mercy, but the man was less of a threat
than the dozen or so of his fellow traitors spilling from a hatch in the deck.

Granted, Shrike has a jump pack.

Legends of the Space Marines

The hot breath of the two Astartes was white in the cold as they panted like predators sated from the hunt. But this hunt was not finished. For from down the tracks came the sound of steel feet on the rocks, and the roaring voice of an engine. And before the Astartes could ready themselves, from the frozen darkness lumbered a Sentinel walker.
Many of you have seen such a thing, and perhaps even fought alongside them, for they are commonly used by the armies of the Imperial Guard. This, however, was different. Its two legs were reinforced with sturdy armour plates and its cab, in which its traitor driver cowered, was as heavily plated as a tank. It had been made with techniques forgotten to the masters of the forge worlds today, and it bore as its weapon a pair of autocannon. This was no mere spindly scouting machine! This was an engine of destruction.
“Despair not!” shouted the headstrong Hrothgar as this monster came into view. “You shall not have to face this machine, old man, wizened and decrepit as you are! I shall ensure this traitor’s eyes are on me alone. All you need do, venerable one, is fire that missile launcher of yours!”
Daegalan had it in mind to scold the Blood Claw for his insolence, but it was not the time for such things.
Hrothgar ran into view of the Sentinel. He fired off shots from his bolt pistol, and the Sentinel turned to hunt him through the valley’s shadows. But Hrothgar was fast and valiant, and even as the Sentinel’s mighty guns opened fire he sprinted from rock to rock, from flinty fissure to deep shadow, and every shell spat by the Sentinel’s guns was wasted against unyielding stone. At that time it happened a flurry of snow was blown up by Mother Fenris’ icy breath and Hrothgar ventured closer still, diving between the metal feet of the Sentinel, knowing that he was too fast and his movements too unpredictable for the machine’s pilot to fire upon him with accuracy.
So infuriated was the pilot of the Sentinel that he forgot, as lesser soldiers than Astartes are wont to do, the true threat he was facing. For Daegalan the Long Fang had indeed taken aim with his missile launcher, the only weapon the Astartes had between them that might pierce the machine’s armour. With a roar the missile fired, and with a vicious bark it exploded. The rear of the Sentinel was torn clear away, and the pilot mortally wounded. Exposed to the cold night, the blood from his many wounds froze. But he did not have long to suffer this fate, for Hrothgar the Blood Claw climbed up the legs of the Sentinel and tore out the traitor’s spine with his bare hands.

Because as we know, Space Marines can move faster than bullets, and all non-space Marines have the same accuracy and can't hit them when moving, regardless of all other factors (range, rate of fire, etc.) Except for all those examples I provided, which are of cases where Space Marines clearly are taking huge quantities of fire for some odd reason even though space Marines are supposed to be super mobile and never stand still for that sort of punishment...

Once again, he’s not dead.

Which makes no effing difference. Armor penetrated, Space MArine taken out. Since when do your interpretations of evidence take precedence over everyone else?

I never claimed or implied that the entire company had autocannons. It would be reasonable to assume that a company-sized formation would posses quite a lot of supper weapons?

YEah but there aren't going to be that many. And by your logic the space marines should be so fast and agile they shouldn't be getting many hits either. So how is it autocannon fire is taking them down, again? According to you this should be impossible.

I am not saying they ignore physics, it is just apparent to me that Astartes are tough enough to absorb the momentum.

... Absorb momentum? Where does the momentum go, pray tell?

Because you didn’t really provide any indication as to why the quote was good or not.

Because you're the sole arbiter of what does and doesn't count as valid evidence? Says who?

So in other words you can’t confirm that he missed.

Of course not. It's impossible to prove a negative. But then again its also dishonest to demand that someone must prove it was other than you claim it was, unless your opinions gained some weight of canon by GW fiat I wasn't aware of.

**Melissia**

BrainDeleted wrote:I think they have a very low chance of success though.

It just takes a precise application of high caliber explosive ammunition. The Imperial guard does this all the time.

**KplKeegan**

Seaward wrote:Different writers write Space Marine tactics differently. ADB with Raven Guard? Yeah, those guys will out-think any Guardsman around. Graham McNeill with Ultramarines? Maybe not so much.

This. Writers have a vast threshold of creative license to make their interpretations of a Space Marines abilities and survivability. Every writer, however, maintains that Space Marines are head and shoulders above a regular guardsmen.

To make another comparison; Heavy Bolters and Autocannons are head and shoulders above small arms fire (which Space Marines simply shrug off with impunity), so in respects to the comparison, the heavy weapons and munitions should be able to down a Space Marine with reasonable difficulty.

If the gunners behind the weapon have the accuracy to do so, is entirely a different matter all together and should really have no bearing on this argument, which is off-topic to say the least.

**BrainDeleted**

Melissia wrote:It just takes a precise application of high caliber explosive ammunition. The Imperial guard does this all the time.

No, it does not just take a precise application of force. They need to make sure they aren't detected and evaded or destroyed, this is a lot harder than hiding behind a bush or under a cardboard box. Every Astartes comes equipped with highly attuned autosenses aimed at preventing...Ambush? They need to avoid thermal detection, be utterly quiet and motionless, have next to no scent, ect, ect.

Also, their ambush need to be perfectly executed. Killing one Astartes is no mean feat and they need to wipe the squad almost instantly to succeed. The bolter destroys humans in one hit. It explodes inside them and rips them to pieces. A lasgun, on the other hand, needs many shots to fell an Astartes...Barring the legendary, immaculate single shot. One Astartes is more than capable of wiping out a squad of guardsmen in close quarters once he has identified the threat even if his entire squad has just died around him. "And they shall know no fear"?

**Gree**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
no its not. Its a good thing that I never argued they cna easily penetrate, is it? Do you like constructing strawmen, or what?

You did, or rather you implied it. You claimed they tear through armor, that speaks of easy penetration to me.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Yeah so? We have examples of Ragnar blackmane surviving a heavy stubber round ot the temple. Should we assume Space Marine skin is kevlar now?

Of course. If it’s written down then it’s indicative of their capacities. I see no reason to doubt said source.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you contraidcted yourself?

How?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
You claim that its impossible to damage an Astartes with heavy weapons unless he's standing still, yet you also claim that most of my examples are precisely that (where Astartes get hit by large quantities of weapons fire - which you claim shouldn't be happening because of how agile the Astartes are.)

Because in most of those cases the Astartes are standing still or in confined spaces. If they were moving the it would be unlikely they would be hit.

So, no contradiction.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Nevermind that you're basically claiming they are immune to bolter fire for much the same reasons - unless we are supposed to believe bolters are more powerful than heavy bolters.

I never claimed they are immune to bolter fire. Nice to construct strawmen isn’t it?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which makes no effing difference. Armor penetrated, Space MArine taken out.

It makes all the difference, he lost only a kidney.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because as we know, Space Marines can move faster than bullets, and all non-space Marines have the same accuracy and can't hit them when moving, regardless of all other factors (range, rate of fire, etc.)

You don’t have to be faster than the bullets, just the aim.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Except for all those examples I provided, which are of cases where Space Marines clearly are taking huge quantities of fire for some odd reason even though space Marines are supposed to be super mobile and never stand still for that sort of punishment...

That’s either in confined spaces or the Marine is distracted or simple Plot induced stupidity.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
YEah but there aren't going to be that many.

Proof?

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And by your logic the space marines should be so fast and agile they shouldn't be getting many hits either. So how is it autocannon fire is taking them down, again? According to you this should be impossible.

If it’s an entire company’s worth of autocannons then by sheer weight of fire some must hit. Notice only a few were hit.

So my point still stands.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
... Absorb momentum? Where does the momentum go, pray tell?

Into the body of course. It just wouldn’t be enough to affect an Astarte, like my kid cousin charging into my knee and bouncing off.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're the sole arbiter of what does and doesn't count as valid evidence? Says who?

I’m not the sole arbiter, it’s just that your examples and arguments have flaws in them I point out.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Of course not. It's impossible to prove a negative. But then again its also dishonest to demand that someone must prove it was other than you claim it was, unless your opinions gained some weight of canon by GW fiat I wasn't aware of.

Not at all. I’m simply clarifying each piece of evidence.