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Sorry if this has already been said, and apologies if this comes across as trolling. I admitt now that I have not read every post but a lot of people seem to be falling into the same old traps.

Real life, 40k fluff and 40k rules do not mesh and are not compareable. Sorry just seen these arguments too many times.

Real life
Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years.
A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.

40K Fluff
40k fluff is designed to give the table top game flavour, so you have a reason to fight and your men have a personality rather than just bits of plastic. Marines in most novels are plaine riduclous in game terms, either that or have the best dice rolling ever. The fluff changes so often it could never be considered cast iron. There are always exceptions to rules and reimagining of the subject. At best it could be compared to our own history, as in, our understanding changes as new facts come to life and different people examine the subject. History is nt written in a vacume and neither is 40k fluff.

40k Rules
40k rules are there, in theory, to make an even and playable game. Weapons in real life can not be broken down into 10 strength catergories with 6 levels of armor penertration. Yes they try to reflect some of the fluff but considering how much that contradicts it self and they have to keep the game (in theory) balanced, the accuracy varies. For instance DKK shoot and fight as well as Space marines and our stubborn to boot. So in fluff terms why spend all that time and effort creating marines with geneseeds when you can just nuke a world and turn into a never ending war.

sorry rant over

Your post sir SpankHammer III is brilliant.

SpankHammer III wrote:
Real life
Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years.
A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.

Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. From that point we can make a bunch of further guesses like, flakarmour is possibly not much more resilent than modern body armour and the like. So while we do not know exactly from what the various 40k weapons are made we can observe their impact on materials we know, stone, flesh, wood and the like.

This leads me to the conclusion that at least the very basic weapons ( autoguns, lasguns ) are not much more destructive than modern day weapons.

KingDeath wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:
Real life
Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years.
A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.

Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. From that point we can make a bunch of further guesses like, flakarmour is possibly not much more resilent than modern body armour and the like. So while we do not know exactly from what the various 40k weapons are made we can observe their impact on materials we know, stone, flesh, wood and the like.

This leads me to the conclusion that at least the very basic weapons ( autoguns, lasguns ) are not much more destructive than modern day weapons.

You miss the point. 40k universe laws =/= reality laws.
So if Lasgun can shoot trough 3m of solid concrete - it can. But can't do the same thing here.

Except a lasgun can't shoot through 3m of concrete anyway.

I made a thread concerning that topic a while back.

It mostly consisted of pointless irrelevant arguing about gak that I didn't ask, or "Happens in some Gaunt's Ghosts book I think".

BrotherHaraldus wrote:And, Melissia, this one's for you: have you ever read that "Space Marines can shrug of hits that would put holes in a battle tank"?

Yes, but in context it was referring to a modern battletank (IE like an Abrams), not a Leman Russ Battle Tank. A Marine's armor cannot take shrug off multiple hits from a weapon that can penetrate the front armor of an LRBT or a Land Raider.

Void__Dragon wrote:I made a thread concerning that topic a while back.

It mostly consisted of pointless irrelevant arguing about gak that I didn't ask, or "Happens in some Gaunt's Ghosts book I think".

I know. Emphasis on "I think it happened somewhere I think".

I'm not actually arguing that they can penetrate three meters of concrete so I'm unsure what your post is meant to be addressing.

KingDeath wrote:Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. .

Lasguns are a good deal more powerful than a modern day assault rifle. Assasult rifles don't blow off limbs or punch fist-sized holes in people. Your average AK-47 will not do that.Any discrepancies to the lasgun damage are easily explained by variable power settings as shown in the novels.

Our very own Connor Macleod calced the lasgun here:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=106186&highlight=40k

KingDeath wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:
Real life
Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years.
A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.

Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. From that point we can make a bunch of further guesses like, flakarmour is possibly not much more resilent than modern body armour and the like. So while we do not know exactly from what the various 40k weapons are made we can observe their impact on materials we know, stone, flesh, wood and the like.

This leads me to the conclusion that at least the very basic weapons ( autoguns, lasguns ) are not much more destructive than modern day weapons.

Actually, lasgun have a decidedly larger effect than modern assault rifle. They can rip your arm off with a solid, direct hit. They cause a small explosion upon impact.

Though I do agree autoguns would basically be modern rifles.

Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.

Actually in this case the Gaunt’s Ghosts books conveniently explains that lasguns have variable power settings. Dark Heresy has the same thing but adds a variety of different models to lasguns.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not actually arguing that they can penetrate three meters of concrete so I'm unsure what your post is meant to be addressing.

I know. I wasn't accusing you, I was just saying it some random rumor.

On the topic of the lasgun, I read Dead Men Walking by Steve Lyons, a civilian gets her arm cut of by a normal lasgun (IIRC not even the Lucius pattern of the DKoK that were involved, it was a PDF weapon).

However, even the hellgun and the stronger Lucius lasgun needed a lot of hits to fell and Necron warrior (as resilient as a SM? More? Less? But thats not the point of this post) and Flayed Ones.

The author do make a few mistakes regarding weapons (hellguns with shorter reach than the lasgun for one).

OT: I'll go with most people here, Stromtroopers/Kasrkins/Grenadiers are the special forces as we see it and the SM are shocktroops.

Gree wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.

Actually in this case the Gaunt’s Ghosts books conveniently explains that lasguns have variable power settings. Dark Heresy has the same thing but adds a variety of different models to lasguns.

The Gaunt's Ghosts books are also terrible. So I guess that does make sense.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not actually arguing that they can penetrate three meters of concrete so I'm unsure what your post is meant to be addressing.

If something is possible in Warhammer 40000 - it's not possible in our universe.
And the other way around.

Here, Railguns go trough the target. In 40k they explode in it witch is impossible here.

So Lasgun here can't breach 1m of concrete, in 40k it can breach 3m.

You see my point?

Brother Coa wrote:Here, Railguns go trough the target. In 40k they explode in it witch is impossible here.

I'm not actually sure what fluff you've been reading.

Since there is a story of a Tau Railgun firing through the front and out the back of a Leman Russ, which created a vacuum that pulled the crew through the little hole it left.

So they certainly go through the target.

OR is it the other way around...

Nevermind, my point is that if something is not possible here - it is possible in 40k. And the other way around.

US Issue White Dwarf 300 January 2005
"Space Marines In The Movies: Chapter Unapproved"
a.k.a. What Marine stats would look like if we said to the blackest depths of hell with fairness and made them like the fiction.

Space Marine

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 6 6 2 5 3 9 3+

Equipment: Bolter, Combat Knife, Grenades

Bolter Range 36" S6 AP4 Assault 4, Rending

Combat Knife attacks count as Rending

Grenade Range 6" S8 AP3 Assault 1, Blast


Oh and they have Fleet, Move Through Cover, Infiltrate, and their armor save counts as invulnerable and they get to re-roll failed saves not to mention a couple custom special rules. Straken doesn't look so tough now. Happy?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Gree wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.

Actually in this case the Gaunt’s Ghosts books conveniently explains that lasguns have variable power settings. Dark Heresy has the same thing but adds a variety of different models to lasguns.

The Gaunt's Ghosts books are also terrible. So I guess that does make sense.

Fortunately that is entirely a matter of opinion that does not change what’s written down across multiple pieces of fluff.

Quite a few of the Imperial Armour books have mentioned variable power settings for lasguns as well.

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer lists the standard issue Mars Pattern Short Lasgun as having a low and a high setting.

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not actually arguing that they can penetrate three meters of concrete so I'm unsure what your post is meant to be addressing.

If something is possible in Warhammer 40000 - it's not possible in our universe.
And the other way around.

Here, Railguns go trough the target. In 40k they explode in it witch is impossible here.

So Lasgun here can't breach 1m of concrete, in 40k it can breach 3m.

You see my point?

Actually, railgun are just super-penetrating weapon that turn anything in an enclosed space to soup in 40k. It is in real life where they have something more of a tomahawk missile effect on the target, due to the kinetic energies and plasma forming around the projectile.

Third edition codex rules also indicate lasguns have varaibel power settings (charge slider I believe they identify it as.) I'm pretty sure there are other cases in the fluff that do so as well, that's the only case I can recall off hand.

But even if we assume that all lasguns for some reason were "single setting" only, we know from multiple sources that they have different kinds of powerpacks (like the normal and the hotshot packs) and that they cn (if the weapon is designed to use them) offer variable performance. Like the hotshot packs, or the overcharge packs, or so on. Lasguns are also so endlessly customizable that it would be pretty easy to adapt them to higher outputs just by swapping out components (thats what the Krieg have for their lasrifles, after all.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: railguns. A hypervelocity projectile (like a railgun, or an asteroid impact, or similar) "explodes" because it carries so much energy that the projectile as well as the target melts/vaporizes on impact, which can create an "explosive" effect that we would typically associate with bombs. I think I'm oversimplifying it somewhat, but basically the idea is that if you have a strong enough projectile (or target) it wouldn't neccesarily "explode" instantly on impact. We really dont knwo what Tau railgun projectiles are composed of (even if they said 'steel' that wouldn't help, because steels are alloys and they can be alloyed with alot of different things to give differing properties.)

There also is typically a "threshold' of around 3-4 km/s before hypervelocity impact effects become really noticable (although 10+ km/s is where they are even more noticable.) RL and future tank guns settled on a 2-2.5 km/s muzzle velocity as an ideal point between the hypervelocity threshold as well as improving penetrative qualities, and most of the sources we have on tau railgun velocity further allow them to perform within that threshold (depending on sources, the lower limt on velocity is like 6-8x the speed of sound.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:Third edition codex rules also indicate lasguns have varaibel power settings (charge slider I believe they identify it as.) I'm pretty sure there are other cases in the fluff that do so as well, that's the only case I can recall off hand.

But even if we assume that all lasguns for some reason were "single setting" only, we know from multiple sources that they have different kinds of powerpacks (like the normal and the hotshot packs) and that they cn (if the weapon is designed to use them) offer variable performance. Like the hotshot packs, or the overcharge packs, or so on. Lasguns are also so endlessly customizable that it would be pretty easy to adapt them to higher outputs just by swapping out components (thats what the Krieg have for their lasrifles, after all.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: railguns. A hypervelocity projectile (like a railgun, or an asteroid impact, or similar) "explodes" because it carries so much energy that the projectile as well as the target melts/vaporizes on impact, which can create an "explosive" effect that we would typically associate with bombs. I think I'm oversimplifying it somewhat, but basically the idea is that if you have a strong enough projectile (or target) it wouldn't neccesarily "explode" instantly on impact. We really dont knwo what Tau railgun projectiles are composed of (even if they said 'steel' that wouldn't help, because steels are alloys and they can be alloyed with alot of different things to give differing properties.)

There also is typically a "threshold' of around 3-4 km/s before hypervelocity impact effects become really noticable (although 10+ km/s is where they are even more noticable.) RL and future tank guns settled on a 2-2.5 km/s muzzle velocity as an ideal point between the hypervelocity threshold as well as improving penetrative qualities, and most of the sources we have on tau railgun velocity further allow them to perform within that threshold (depending on sources, the lower limt on velocity is like 6-8x the speed of sound.)

The overcharge packs are sexy. They are strong enough to bust a chaos dreadnought the feth up.

re:re: Railguns, I know, trust me, I have had WAY too many railgun debates on dakka. but the codex for tau has a clear quote on it's effect on a tank, so that is what they do in wh40k. However, in real life, railguns shots are like this:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note the plasma trailing it. Also, a description of a railgun:

"Railguns are being researched as weapons with projectiles that do not contain explosives, but are given extremely high velocities: 3,500 m/s (11,500 ft/s, approximately Mach 10 at sea level) or more (for comparison, the M16 rifle has a muzzle speed of 930 m/s, or 3,050 ft/s), which would make their kinetic energy equal or superior to the energy yield of an explosive-filled shell of greater mass. This would allow more ammunition to be carried and eliminate the hazards of carrying explosives in a tank or naval weapons platform. Also, by firing at greater velocities railguns have greater range, less bullet drop and less wind drift, bypassing the inherent cost and physical limitations of conventional firearms–"the limits of gas expansion prohibit launching an unassisted projectile to velocities greater than about 1.5 km/s and ranges of more than 50 miles [80 km] from a practical conventional gun system."[13]

If it were possible to apply the technology as a rapid-fire automatic weapon, a railgun would have further advantages of increased rate of fire. The feed mechanisms of a conventional firearm must move to accommodate the propellant charge as well as the ammunition round, while a railgun would only need to accommodate the projectile. Furthermore, a railgun would not have to extract a spent cartridge case from the breech, meaning that a fresh round could be cycled almost immediately after the previous round has been shot"

I want me some assault 15!

Connor MacLeod wrote:Third edition codex rules also indicate lasguns have varaibel power settings (charge slider I believe they identify it as.) I'm pretty sure there are other cases in the fluff that do so as well, that's the only case I can recall off hand.

Games Workshop has the "Triplex"-pattern as the (only named) lasgun model that has a variable power slider - it's mentioned in both the Inquisitor RPG and the current Guard Codex. The Mars-pattern had an official picture in the 2E Rulebook where it was shown with a power slider, but in later sources this seems to have been retconned in favour of the Triplex (as it is mentioned as an advantage over other patterns, including the Mars). And then of course you have various licensed sources going by completely different interpretations altogether.
As always, there is little consistency and no canon fact.

The Kantrael pattern has a variable power slider. Most Lasguns do actually have a variable power slider.

The Triplex is the only one I can think of, outside of whatever model the Tanith Ghosts had, that could swap between a "burst" and "single shot" fire mode though.

Yes, well, not as per the latest Guard Codex and GW's Inquisitor RPG. As I said, the studio has been retconning a few things and certain licensed products have simply invented stuff that GW didn't bother to adopt.

In the Inquisitor RPG, the Necromunda-pattern has the fire selector. The Triplex is set apart by the power slider - which, according to the current Guard Codex, also makes it different from the Kantrael, whose defining feature is simple robustness.

There really is no consistency.

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:And, Melissia, this one's for you: have you ever read that "Space Marines can shrug of hits that would put holes in a battle tank"?

Yes, but in context it was referring to a modern battletank (IE like an Abrams), not a Leman Russ Battle Tank. A Marine's armor cannot take shrug off multiple hits from a weapon that can penetrate the front armor of an LRBT or a Land Raider.

Where does it say it to be a modern battle tank? The previous posts say that you shouldn't mix real life and 40k together. Surely it must mean an simply average 40k battle tank. (something in between a leman russ and a chimera)
It also does not say which facing ti is hit upon, so i assume it is front, because that is where most tanks are hit.

VoxTraffic wrote:US Issue White Dwarf 300 January 2005
"Space Marines In The Movies: Chapter Unapproved"
a.k.a. What Marine stats would look like if we said to the blackest depths of hell with fairness and made them like the fiction.

Space Marine

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 6 6 2 5 3 9 3+

Equipment: Bolter, Combat Knife, Grenades

Bolter Range 36" S6 AP4 Assault 4, Rending

Combat Knife attacks count as Rending

Grenade Range 6" S8 AP3 Assault 1, Blast


Oh and they have Fleet, Move Through Cover, Infiltrate, and their armor save counts as invulnerable and they get to re-roll failed saves not to mention a couple custom special rules. Straken doesn't look so tough now. Happy?

I fully agree that this is what the marines would be like, but as you all know they have been pushed down quite a bit for two (2) reasons; game balance and as to not force IG, Ork and Tyranid players to get massive collections to even be able to play.

IMO, Space Marines are not neccessarily shocktroops OR special forces.
Ever heard the quote "Space Marines excel in all theatres of war"? (from some WD, i think.)
They simply do what the situation requires.