Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lynata wrote:Eh, I dunno. Power armour reflecting hotshot rounds is reason enough for me to facepalm.

Why is that? I thought that Astartes armor was made to reflect TANK shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.

So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.

Brother Coa wrote:

Lynata wrote:Eh, I dunno. Power armour reflecting hotshot rounds is reason enough for me to facepalm.

Why is that? I thought that Astartes armor was made to reflect TANK shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.

So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.

Astartes armour is certainly not made to reflect tankshots. It offers reliable protection against most anti infantry weapons ( with the exception of plasma weapons ) but most tanks usualy
carry weapons that are designed to penetrate the much thicker ( in relation to astartes powerarmour ) armour of other tanks.
If you want protection against anti tank weapons then the superheavy Terminator armour is probably the most reliable, although far from perfect, choice.

The Adeptus Astartes (commonly known as Space Marines, and colloquially as Angels of Death) are the most elite and feared fighting forces of the imperium.

quoted from Codex Imperialis. That's for those (i do not know how many) peeps that seem to do some SM-hating.
Also, i do not know where i'm quoting this from (i'm checking my books right now) but i have seen this:

Space marines can shrug off hits that would put holes in a battle tank.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Space marines can shrug off hits that would put holes in a battle tank.

Can. Doesnt mean they always can do so with reliability. I think that line comes up in the Codex somewhere, and if I also recall correctly, some of the stuff in there you will need to take as a little bit hyperbole.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.

Where?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.

Where?

See from 7:41 to 7:55.




And my mistake: they had 250.000 combat ready Space Marines, without reserves.

Is Dan drinking alot or is he just very cold? That nose looks redder than Rudolph's. Kidding, I love Dan Abnett because he isn't a slave to so called "Canon" but furthermore he is an intelligent and articulate man who obviously is thinking deeply and weaving a real fabric into the 40k universe.

It's not just as simple as write about this subject, he keeps it interesting and puts some interesting dynamics and story vehicles in there (e.g. Characters and viewpoints).

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.

Where?

See from 7:41 to 7:55.




And my mistake: they had 250.000 combat ready Space Marines, without reserves.

Well a cynic might say that an author interview doesn't constituate canon until it's written on paper.
However, I'm not one of those people! Especially since this confirms exactly what I've always believed!

@ Some Random Evil guy, the Tau had air-superiority, meaning extraction was a bitch for the SM present.

Well, it makes sense that the largest founding would have been the Second. Building a chapter from scratch would be incredibly difficult. The chapter wouldn't even be viable for decades until it had enough fully matured Marines and some kind of leadership. Heck, the more you think about it, creating a new chapter from nothing seems almost impossible.

But if there were approximately 400 Second Founding chapters like the new GK codex suggests, then they are breaking up the nine loyal legions, with gobs of combat experience, plenty of officers and veteran sergeants. And if the Ultramarines are the primogenitors of 3/5ths of the Astartes, it jives that their Post-Reconstruction numbers would have been right around that range too.

i'd think troop numbers will vary over time or due to attrition even before the Heresy. I doubt they can stay at 'absolute max" all the time. and the ultramarines, IIRC had the entire system to draw on for resources, whereas most other Legions had only one planet or so.

HH Collected visions had the numbers of 100,000 as a minimum for Legions, and mentioning the Ultramarines had 250,000, but there were other bits of the collected visions (and other novels by other authors in the HH series) that implied far smaller numbers (the tens of thousands of troops in a Legion.)

The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.

Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.

It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.

mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.

Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.

It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.

Based on that we can hypothesize a few things:
1. SM dont die all that often
2. The numbers are fudged to make there seem like there are less SM than there actually are for "propaganda purposes".

Interesting theories.
Any I am not thinking of.

mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.

Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.

It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.

The last codex retconned it a bit to where the 10th company isn't limited to 100 scouts.

mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.

Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.

It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.

Well it would usually be reserve company marines replacing casualties, and scouts replacing reserve company marines.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.

Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.

It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.

The last codex retconned it a bit to where the 10th company isn't limited to 100 scouts.

It's never been limited to 100.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.

Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.

It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.

The last codex retconned it a bit to where the 10th company isn't limited to 100 scouts.

It's never been limited to 100.

Yes, Scouts were not "Trainees" previously. The 10th was an honoured company like the rest.

Can you provide a source for that? Because I can guarantee that there have been no fixed sizes of Scout Companies in Codex chapters dating back to 2nd Edition.

er the fact that CODEX Chapters are always 1,000 Combat marines (Not including specialists).

The structure is in Codex Space Marine, 9 Line Companies of 100, plus the 10th.

9 x 100 = 900
Or
1000 - 900 = 100..... or there abouts?

Otherwise the 1000 Combat Marines in a Chapter cannot apply can it? Or are Scouts not included and the Last 100 are made up of all the ancillary staff (Techmarines etc).

mwnciboo wrote:er the fact that CODEX Chapters are always 1,000 Combat marines (Not including specialists).

The structure is in Codex Space Marine, 9 Line Companies of 100, plus the 10th.

9 x 100 = 900
Or
1000 - 900 = 100..... or there abouts?

Otherwise the 1000 Combat Marines in a Chapter cannot apply can it? Or are Scouts not included and the Last 100 are made up of all the ancillary staff (Techmarines etc).

Thats something that has always made me wonder. I know there are 10 squads of 10 in each company. On top of that there is:

In each company:
Company master
Company Chaplin

Above the company:
Chapter Master
Master of the forge
Master of the armory/arsenal
Master of the watch
Master of the recruits
Master of the Fleet

That makes 26.

On top of that you have tech marines (probably around 10), other chaplins (at least 1 - Company masters retinue, possibly more who care for the dead), Librarians (possibly 11. One for each company plus one in the chaper masters retinue). That makes 48.

Then you have the dreadnoughts - I would guess at aroung 10 in a chapter. Thats 58.

On top of that the scout company is lead by full SM's, so the sargents, company master, chaplin etc. Minimum of 11. Thats 68.

That just leaves 32 to find somewhere else in an "ideal" codex force. Its not impossible that 1000 could not include the scouts.

Paul wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:er the fact that CODEX Chapters are always 1,000 Combat marines (Not including specialists).

The structure is in Codex Space Marine, 9 Line Companies of 100, plus the 10th.

9 x 100 = 900
Or
1000 - 900 = 100..... or there abouts?

Otherwise the 1000 Combat Marines in a Chapter cannot apply can it? Or are Scouts not included and the Last 100 are made up of all the ancillary staff (Techmarines etc).

Thats something that has always made me wonder. I know there are 10 squads of 10 in each company. On top of that there is:

In each company:
Company master
Company Chaplin

Above the company:
Chapter Master
Master of the forge
Master of the armory/arsenal
Master of the watch
Master of the recruits
Master of the Fleet

That makes 26.

On top of that you have tech marines (probably around 10), other chaplins (at least 1 - Company masters retinue, possibly more who care for the dead), Librarians (possibly 11. One for each company plus one in the chaper masters retinue). That makes 48.

Then you have the dreadnoughts - I would guess at aroung 10 in a chapter. Thats 58.

On top of that the scout company is lead by full SM's, so the sargents, company master, chaplin etc. Minimum of 11. Thats 68.

That just leaves 32 to find somewhere else in an "ideal" codex force. Its not impossible that 1000 could not include the scouts.

I'll start at the top:

The captain of a company would be withing the 100, as he leads a squad.
Master of the armory/arsenal
Master of the watch
Master of the recruits
Master of the Fleet
Those are all secondary titles for the captains of the battle companies and 10th company captain. Meaning you're counting something you've already counted.

There would not likely be 10, they seem to be a bit rarer than that. maybe 5, tops? And either way specialists are outside the normal counting of marines, meaning it would be 1000+specialists. And librarians would be a LOT rarer than that. I can't see there being more than a handful per chapter.

Most chapter have only 2-3 dreads from what I gather, with some occasionally having slightly more, and many having none.

The full SM in the scout company would be part of it's organisation.

Depending on how realistic you want to be, a Space Marine chapter probably has between 1400 and 1500 total Marines in it. I've been told this is a "tired" argument that's been brought up "countless" times, lol.

But the Thunderhawks listed as operated by the Ultramarines would take 93 Marines alone to crew. That's almost an entire company. If you look at the other vehicles the Ultramarines are reported to operate, it's between another 150-200 Marines. Then you have Techmarines, Chaplains, Librarians, Apothecaries, the members of the command squads and Honor Guard, etc. You can suggest that vehicles are crewed by members of the Reserve companies, but then it would take two and a half to three full companies of Marines to crew the vehicles, which makes them pretty much useless as "reserve" forces. Especially since we've been told that the Reserve companies have other duties too (land speeders, bikes, etc).

The wording has always been "around 1000". And it's fairly clear that the 1000 is meant to be a line strength of the infantry portion of the Chapter. Remember, the 1000 number has been given to us "out of character" so to speak, and not as how it is specifically written in the Codex Astartes.

If that is the case, we 100 short, because are Scouts Combat Astartes?

If they are then the Scout Company must be about 100.

If not, then the Chapter needs to find 100 Combat Marines from somewhere?

mwnciboo wrote:If that is the case, we 100 short, because are Scouts Combat Astartes?

If they are then the Scout Company must be about 100.

If not, then the Chapter needs to find 100 Combat Marines from somewhere?

They would be combat marines.

I feel like there wouldn't be a limit on the number of scouts, but that having a full scout company would mean more rigorous screening, meaning when it is near 100, they wouldn't be bringing in enough scouts to get it over 100, but they would have higher quality scouts.

Also, scouts can (and sometimes do) have all the organs except the black carapace.

The Scout Company is the last 100 Marines. it just has no formal and rigid structure, so it is always "about 100".

i always wondered if the 10th represented the Sergeants who could potentially lead scouts. i mean I always wondered where they kept them, and the 1000-strong number is supposed to be for "battle brothers" as I recall (or at least thats the context i can usually recall seeing) and scouts aren't a full space marine until they get all their implants (and thus might be exempt from the normal strictures.)

Other than that I've always seen the 1000-Marine rule as more of a guideline rather than an absolute. the Codex is enforced largely by tradition (and to an exten by threat of annihilation if the Inquisition or perhaps other Marine Chapters believed the Chapter in question was trying ot pull another Huron) and there is nothing beyond them exceeding limits (I mean the Black Templars have done it and it is barely tolerated. The Space wolves do it as well. as long as they don't cross the line too much, there seems to be no issue with it.) And Space marines are fairly precious - they're not going to purge the surplus Marines just to keep to some arbitrary limit, and its impossible to completely and utterly control the rate of recruiting or the loss rates among Marines - they're either going tobe perpetually understrength, or they will be overstrength by a (slight) degree. this probably depends on what sorts of actions the Marines are involved in -heavy participation in a warzone would lead to more leniency in exceeidng the limit (esp if they are suffering heavy casualties) - the 5th edition codex certianly hinted that. But in that case they're only going to be overstrength by a relatively small degree.. maybea few hundred tops.. Jumping from 1000 to say, 3000 is probably going to be looked at rather unfavorably.

One could also make the argument that the 1000-marine number represents the troops available to deploy to wars en-masse. It may not include 'extras' like the Marines who command or operate the starships.. the techmarines, those who are involved in recruitment in training, or who occupy distant outposts.. or exceptional things like the Wolfblade.

Chapters vary greatly. Ultramarines are around 1000. It doesn't matter if it includes scouts or not, around 1000 is enough.

Number of Scouts vary even more.

im2randomghgh wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:If that is the case, we 100 short, because are Scouts Combat Astartes?

If they are then the Scout Company must be about 100.

If not, then the Chapter needs to find 100 Combat Marines from somewhere?

They would be combat marines.

I feel like there wouldn't be a limit on the number of scouts, but that having a full scout company would mean more rigorous screening, meaning when it is near 100, they wouldn't be bringing in enough scouts to get it over 100, but they would have higher quality scouts.

Also, scouts can (and sometimes do) have all the organs except the black carapace.

That would imply the quality of Space Marines would vary, depending on when they were recruited. I personally don't think that's the case.

mwnciboo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:If that is the case, we 100 short, because are Scouts Combat Astartes?

If they are then the Scout Company must be about 100.

If not, then the Chapter needs to find 100 Combat Marines from somewhere?

They would be combat marines.

I feel like there wouldn't be a limit on the number of scouts, but that having a full scout company would mean more rigorous screening, meaning when it is near 100, they wouldn't be bringing in enough scouts to get it over 100, but they would have higher quality scouts.

Also, scouts can (and sometimes do) have all the organs except the black carapace.

That would imply the quality of Space Marines would vary, depending on when they were recruited. I personally don't think that's the case.

I do. If they can afford to screen them with another 2 or three tests, they will only get the best of the best...of the best. Of course the quality DOES vary, they are not all clones. That is why you have your Calgars and Lysanders.