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Given how capable modern Special Forces are, Space Marines with their Super human physiques, armour and overpowered weapons would be able capable of doing immense damage. If a Marine wanted to sacrifice himself, surely he could grab a power weapon and a Jump pack and turn himself into a guided missile and impale a Daemon/titan Bridge/Tank at 300mph using the blade . Given their heightened senses, reactions and strength they would be able to feats akin to circus gymnast, parkour runner, and high level martial artist. They look brutal, but their tactics never seem to tally with the capabilities of their armour. Charging through walls for example, ripping plates off the sides of tanks. A Marine on Jump pack, would hurtle at titan, slam into the bridge drop his melta charge and gun the jump pack again. You would throw a THunder Hammer at a tank if it was passing 30yards away, and you needed to intercept it. You would use a Rhino as a Battering Ram, infact everything in the 40K universe is expendable to protect the Imperium. Everything is very formulaic, the most outlandish Space Marine tactics got was when Lysander said "OMG, i totally forgot about that Vortex grenade, look i'll be back in 5 minutes okay...just keep these Titans tied up till i get back, m'kay". Alpha Legion must not have had to try very hard to outwit their brethren who spent the last 10,000 years following the same tactical doctorine. It reminds me of Blackadder.......

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Although you cannot simulate this in the rules of a Wargame, there is a singular lack of imagination of BL authors. Why is that? Is it a type cast thing? I played SPACE MARINE this week and i was a bit "meh" It was no where near brutal enough and a little repetitive. The Jump pack sections were good.

Poignant.

Firstly, the Astartes don't generally try to sacrifice themselves. They are too valuable for that, and so they try to keep themselves alive so as to better serve the Emperor.l

Secondly, Titans are on another scale altogether. You can't just jetpack onto the bridge and drop a melta-charge. Astartes might have the armour of a tank, but that doesn't mean that they can rip a battletank apart just using their gauntlets. As to the rest, they do have a tendency to smash up tanks, and I'm pretty sure in at least one book they have run through walls. I'm also fairly sure that they would use Rhinos as battering rams, they just prefer not to (hell, the Astral Knights used their Battle Barge as a battering ram against the World Engine).

Space Marines aren't special forces, the closest the Imperium has to Special Forces are Stormtroopers.

Blood_Raven wrote:Space Marines aren't special forces, the closest the Imperium has to Special Forces are Stormtroopers.

What are Space Marines then, shock troops?

It doesn't change the fact that what SM's do in the table-top (and sadly the video game, to an extent) do not actually represent their abilities. I understand this would be almost impossible, but there are some things (like throwing weapons, the bright as freaking day fact that hit and run tactics are better in every way than jumping into combat and staying there until Jesus happens to stroll by) are things most would assume Space Marines do already.

If S3 is the strength of an average human, and S4 is the strength of a Space Marine, then the divide between them is massive, like a normal human benching 185 lbs, then a Space Marines benching 700 lbs. A model with S5 or higher would have so much muscle that they would look like the hulk.

Well thats all well and good, for a standard military. Tyranids are not a standard Enemy, holding Terra facing the daemon hordes and Legions of your ex-brothers is not normal by any military standard so imposing our idea's of warfare on them doesn't work. That said there are more parallels between SF and SM, than SF and Stormtroopers because they hit and fade, hey are designed around Elite strike units, a surgical precision strike, best equipment, excellent training, physical excellence and a total dedication and professionalism.

Stormtroopers are just veterans with Hot Shot weapons, they are still Line Infantry like Marines or Airborne, just better than the average line infantry unit.

mwnciboo wrote:Well thats all well and good, for a standard military. Tyranids are not a standard Enemy, holding Terra facing the daemon hordes and Legions of your ex-brothers is not normal by any military standard so imposing our idea's of warfare on them doesn't work. That said there are more parallels between SF and SM, than SF and Stormtroopers because they hit and fade, hey are designed around Elite strike units, a surgical precision strike, best equipment, excellent training, physical excellence and a total dedication and professionalism.

Stormtroopers are just veterans with Hot Shot weapons, they are still Line Infantry like Marines or Airborne, just better than the average line infantry unit.

No, Stormtroopers are more than that. Stormtroopers are sent on special high risk missions against the enemy, like going behind enemy lines to sabotage their equipment, or to act as the vanguard of an assault to soften them up.
Or something like that anyway.

Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field, are equipped with high-grade Carapace armour with more powerful lasguns that require a back-pack power source. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.

iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.

Wait, so if Stormtroopers are Special Forces, that what role do SM fulfill? Posterboys?

I said, they have their own little category. They aren't the same thing as the Storm Troopers, not too good at stealth, and prefer to take the enemy head on and use shock-and-awe tactics to crush stiff opposition as quickly as possible. They're also not line-troopers like the Guard, their tactics are different and their numbers too small.

iproxtaco wrote:I said, they have their own little category. They aren't the same thing as the Storm Troopers, not too good at stealth, and prefer to take the enemy head on and use shock-and-awe tactics to crush stiff opposition as quickly as possible. They're also not line-troopers like the Guard, their tactics are different and their numbers too small.

Whoops, I didn't see that you mentioned Astartes.
Ok, cool. I've been wondering what their overall purpose was.

The reason Space Marines don't do that in the background is because everything else in the setting is that powerful.

A Marine can punch through materials that make steel look like a joke. They can pulp the skull of a human casually, even when unarmoured. Marines can in fact charge through walls, if they are made of weak enough materials. 40k materials are generally not that weak.

I'm really not getting what your complaint is, to be honest.

Space Marines are a completely seperate force altogether. They're not directly under the Imperial Guard's control, though they'd be mad to go on a mission without infantry support. You have to request their aid, and if they want to they'll drop in. They are like shock troops in their tactics, breaking sieges and leading charges. Stormtroopers are most like SF.

Special Forces are not what you seem to think they are.

Not every Special Forces unit worldwide behaves the same as another unit. Spetsnaz trains their operators differently than the US Navy SEALs who train theirs differently than the Chinese Special Forces who train theirs differently than the South Koreans do who train theirs differently than the North Koreans who train theirs differently than Israel trains theirs.

Point is there's no such thing as "generic Special Forces" because "Special Forces" is such a broad category that you'd have to be a madman to assume the objective they train their operators toward is the same.

Space Marines are rapid-deployment airborne shock troops. Imperial "Special Forces" are Stormtroopers and the Officio Assassinorum.

There are lots of "special forces" depending on where you look. Storm troopers of varied stripes, GRenadiers, various specialist regiments (like Drop troopers, jungle fighters, infiltrators, close assautl specialists, Siege regiments). The AdMech Skitarii and various other organizations are specialists (at least for the AdMech but they are allied troops). The Sisters of Battle are "specialists" after a fashion as well. Alot of it depends on ohw you define "special"- I imagine the elite forces/special forces in a given planet's PDF aren't neccesarily the elite in the IG (high end maybe, but it depends on how they're used. Maybe the PDF special force troops get made into Regimental storm troopers/Grenadiers.)

Everyone in this thread is focusing too much on his usage of "special forces" and not on his question, which is "Why don't Space Marines do all of these sooper kewl things guise".

Forget marines, use a cruise missile instead?
Seriously, at the end of the day marines are just flesh and bone. Sure, powerarmour helps but they definately aren't strong enough to rip tanks appart with their hands or foolish enough to throw their nigh irreplacable thunderhammers at a tank when a simply krakmissile will do just as much damage for a much lower price.

Marines are a massive investment of time and resources (years to train and engineer, a generation to even find reqcruits who MIGHT fit the profile, given equipment and weapons that are costly and hard to replace, and is conditioned/indoctrinated to regard himself as being a godlike, superhuman and highly valuable commodity.) Hunter Killer missiles, even with ADMech/Munitorum BS, i bound to be far cheaper.

And if for some reason you need to drive that sword into the target at high speeds, you can attach a rocket motor and a guidance system to it. God knows they probably have something like that, given how some missiles and torpedoes burrow into starships (EG drills)

Edit: More to the point, AStartes are a niche force. They're meant to be rapid response, rapid strike. They're psychological and terror weapons. They're meant to fight the enemy in close quarters on the ground, on starships. They're meant ot be semi-autonomous so they can deploy without getting caught up in the bureacracy of the Munitorum. They aren't supposed to be able to do everything. They're overkill for garrison forces (Despite being used as that occasioanlly) and not numerous enough to hold territory they take (That's what other forces, eG the Guard, are for.)

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:Space Marines aren't special forces, the closest the Imperium has to Special Forces are Stormtroopers.

What are Space Marines then, shock troops?

That's exactly what they are.........

McNinja wrote:If S3 is the strength of an average human, and S4 is the strength of a Space Marine, then the divide between them is massive, like a normal human benching 185 lbs, then a Space Marines benching 700 lbs. A model with S5 or higher would have so much muscle that they would look like the hulk.

I see this suggestion a lot, yet everyone seems to forget that there are - gasp - other humans who go into S4 as well. Or even above. Perhaps the difference isn't all that massive after all? Cultists only have S2, yet I don't think that this means they'd have trouble lifting a flower pot.

Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans? Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin. Which is echoed in their modus operandi. They don't like to engage in head-on warfare with larger armies because they know they'd loose (there are rare exceptions to this, but I think a siege warfare Chapter would generally only deploy together with other forces to avoid getting grind up). They strike hard and they strike fast at the heart of the enemy, always hoping that they can cut off the snake's head before they get overwhelmed.

Lynata wrote:I see this suggestion a lot, yet everyone seems to forget that there are - gasp - other humans who go into S4 as well. Or even above. Perhaps the difference isn't all that massive after all? Cultists only have S2, yet I don't think that this means they'd have trouble lifting a flower pot.

And these humans are superhuman as well. Harker could break the neck of a Ravenor with his biceps. Games Workshop blatantly has cases of Charles Atlas Supower going on.

Also, have you seen how scrawny Chaos Cultists are? They are apparently on par with Gretchin, who alone pose little threat for anything human-sized.

Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans? Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin. Which is echoed in their modus operandi. They don't like to engage in head-on warfare with larger armies because they know they'd loose (there are rare exceptions to this, but I think a siege warfare Chapter would generally only deploy together with other forces to avoid getting grind up). They strike hard and they strike fast at the heart of the enemy, always hoping that they can cut off the snake's head before they get overwhelmed.

Straken is a bionic man. Using him as an example is pretty faulty.

Space Marines are superhuman, in physical might and reaction-time. They can break through ceramite and pulp human skulls with their bare hands.

Space Marines have to be superhuman in the universe they live in. Just being "better" wouldn't cut it in a Galaxy of Daemons, monstrous aliens, physics, etc.. It indeed takes a superhuman to go 1 on 1 with a Tyranid Hive Tyrant and live to tell the tale.

Any human can receive bionics, though. But Straken - who has S6 (!!!) - isn't the only one approaching or even being superior to Astartes strength. There's also characters like Harker who reach S4 without any bionics simply because they're very, very strong. Like a Space Marine. The latter's advantage is simply that they can be somewhat reliably "made" this way within a couple years instead of decades, and that superior strength isn't the only bonus they receive.

Astartes are superhuman alright. But they're not "superman". That's what I was trying to express - that the gap is certainly remarkable (especially when adding all the differences together), but nowhere as wide as many seem to believe. Don't let your perception be clouded by the "Movie Marines" that certain licensed products propagate. Even lasguns can kill Astartes.

Harriticus wrote:Just being "better" wouldn't cut it in a Galaxy of Daemons, monstrous aliens, physics, etc.. It indeed takes a superhuman to go 1 on 1 with a Tyranid Hive Tyrant and live to tell the tale.

Why would it not "cut it"? All that matters is that they're able to project a much bigger amount of "force" on a much smaller area than any other Imperial organization. The Emperor didn't make Space Marines to be superior to daemons, monstrous aliens, etc - he simply made the best he could do. Doesn't mean that the Space Marines don't have any limitations, and indeed, personally, I would consider it somewhat "over the top" to go 1 on 1 with a Hive Tyrant. Even though it wasn't just Astartes that managed to kill one this way, btw.

Lynata wrote:Any human can receive bionics, though. But Straken - who has S6 (!!!) - isn't the only one approaching or even being superior to Astartes strength. There's also characters like Harker who reach S4 without any bionics simply because they're very, very strong. Like a Space Marine. The latter's advantage is simply that they can be somewhat reliably "made" this way within a couple years instead of decades, and that superior strength isn't the only bonus they receive.

Straken doesn't just have bionics, he's a frickin' Terminator. Harker is S4, yes. And his strength is superhuman. Harker is also IIRC unique in that regard, him and Yarrick, Yarrick being even tougher than a Marine.

This is the same setting where an unmodified human Inquisitor can deflect enemy fire using a sword, as seen in Inquisitor, and multiple times in Eisenhorn.

Astartes are superhuman alright. But they're not "superman". That's what I was trying to express - that the gap is certainly remarkable (especially when adding all the differences together), but nowhere as wide as many seem to believe. Don't let your perception be clouded by the "Movie Marines" that certain licensed products propagate. Even lasguns can kill Astartes.

The difference between the very peak of human and "Superman" is so incredibly massive that I'd like to believe that no one with knowledge of the character would knowingly compare the two. I don't think there are people that claim Marines can move planets out of orbit physically and fly many times faster than the speed of light.

I will ask this: What do you base your perception of Space Marines on? What leads you to believe Black Library exagerrates to a great degree?

Lynata wrote:

McNinja wrote:If S3 is the strength of an average human, and S4 is the strength of a Space Marine, then the divide between them is massive, like a normal human benching 185 lbs, then a Space Marines benching 700 lbs. A model with S5 or higher would have so much muscle that they would look like the hulk.

I see this suggestion a lot, yet everyone seems to forget that there are - gasp - other humans who go into S4 as well. Or even above. Perhaps the difference isn't all that massive after all? Cultists only have S2, yet I don't think that this means they'd have trouble lifting a flower pot.

This is, in my opinion, part of the problem of fluff justifications on a scale of 1-10.
"Weapon Skill 3" can be anything from a Guardsman who's served in a dozen campaigns but never really had to fight hand to hand...to an Eldar Guardian who is hundreds of years old but on their first real "tour of duty" as a Guardian.

Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans?

You seem to forget that Achilles had a weakness.
There's a reason the term "demigod" exists. It's someone who is possessed of powers beyond mere mortals, yet still is fallible like those mortals.

The Astartes are not immortal. They do die. The difference between them and a Guardsman is the amount of people they send screaming into oblivion preceding them before they die.

Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin.

Do you remember exactly what that instance was?

Straken "lying in a quagmire of toxic sludge" waited for Ratathrax to remove his helmet before throttling him with a poisonous barb-root(page 56 of Planetstrike. "Catachan Bites Back").

This isn't a case of Straken deciding to suddenly go and strangle a Chaos Lord with a root from a willow tree. This is Straken making a planned strike, waiting for the lord to remove his helmet and then strangling him with a poisoned root.

Which is echoed in their modus operandi. They don't like to engage in head-on warfare with larger armies because they know they'd lose (there are rare exceptions to this, but I think a siege warfare Chapter would generally only deploy together with other forces to avoid getting grind up). They strike hard and they strike fast at the heart of the enemy, always hoping that they can cut off the snake's head before they get overwhelmed.

The "siege warfare" Chapters such as the Star Phantoms and Imperial Fists generally operate as shock troops during counter-siege operations, and will kinda/sorta take over 'strategic command' supervising defensive measures during operations where they are being besieged.

Kanluwen wrote:

Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin.

Do you remember exactly what that instance was?

Straken "lying in a quagmire of toxic sludge" waited for Ratathrax to remove his helmet before throttling him with a poisonous barb-root(page 56 of Planetstrike. "Catachan Bites Back").

This isn't a case of Straken deciding to suddenly go and strangle a Chaos Lord with a root from a willow tree. This is Straken making a planned strike, waiting for the lord to remove his helmet and then strangling him with a poisoned root.

It also helps that Straken is 100% pure man-sauce.

My take on Space marines role is they are as far above "special forces" as the Army is above the boy scouts, not to be a astartes fanboy but with all the organs implanted and decades of training and fanatic indocrination, the Space Marines are used in missions that no one else can be assigned and have a realistic chance of success.
They would tailor their tactics and gear for the specific mission and then pursue it with all the zeal of a religious warrior, never stopping for rest or respite until it succeeds or they are dead, whether its as a shock force or a commando op, or even a pitched defense, the Astartes are willing able and ready to do any of these tasks.
A force able to operate for days..weeks or even months without sleep, that is immune to most battlefield conditions (cold/heat) and compleatly dependable puts them in a very select form of Special Forces, such as we in the RL cannot even grasp.

Basicaly when nothing else will do they call the Space marines.

(note: this in no way justifies the countless tabletops full of marine players and their over represented armies, just the way i have always thought of the Astartes from way back in the days of Rogue Trader. )

Void__Dragon wrote:I will ask this: What do you base your perception of Space Marines on? What leads you to believe Black Library exagerrates to a great degree?

Studio material, i.e. the fluff in GW's own books and to some extent* the rules - around which the fluff was written. Not just the 40k TT, but also the Inquisitor RPG, etc. The 2E Angels of Death Codex, for example, contained a pretty informative page of text about the protective values of power armour and what can still wound an Astartes. I liked that, as (after some calculating) I found out it fits well into the rules of the game as well as the history of its setting (yes, there actually are a few incidents where the Marines failed to accomplish their goal, and this is the explanation for it).

Black Library on the other hand exaggerates in favour of whoever is the hero of the story, regardless of whether it's a Marine or an Imperial Guard soldier - the inconsistencies resulting out of this approach are fairly obvious. For example, just because Gaunt's Ghosts manage to frag Chaos Marines by the dozens, I don't believe the latter would be that weak. Similarly, however, I also don't think Astartes are that uber just because their novels are almost always written in "300"-style. I could point at "Daemonblood" now and proclaim that every Sororitas Seraphim should be able to go 1 on 1 with a Marine Sergeant and win in close combat, but I won't, because I know that sometimes a story just wants to tell a cool story.

Just my interpretation of the available material, of course. Due to the nature of how the franchise is run, none of us can be "wrong" here, since every source is just as good (or not) as another. Still, I think a too-exaggerated description of the Marines would make for a less consistent setting, as you're simply approaching a point where you have to ask yourself why the Imperium just doesn't wipe everyone's butt with these demigods of war. Let's say I just prefer them to be "much better", but not invincible. May be just a general preference I have, though. I find fallible characters to be much more interesting, regardless of franchise.

*: When something has a better stat, I generally assume it is superior than whatever it is compared to. Such as "bolters > lasguns".

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:They would tailor their tactics and gear for the specific mission and then pursue it with all the zeal of a religious warrior, never stopping for rest or respite until it succeeds or they are dead, whether its as a shock force or a commando op, or even a pitched defense, the Astartes are willing able and ready to do any of these tasks. A force able to operate for days..weeks or even months without sleep, that is immune to most battlefield conditions (cold/heat) and compleatly dependable puts them in a very select form of Special Forces, such as we in the RL cannot even grasp.

This is a fairly important thing as well. Whenever I see discussions about what makes the Marines better, the vast majority of people points out how resilient and strong they are. But these things are just two of the many advantages they have, and I think the other bonuses, whilst often neglected (because they're "not as cool" as the ability to crush a man's head with one hand) are just as if not more vital as to what gives them an edge.

Similar to Marine armour. No, it's not the protective value that makes it stand out. Other models of power armour are just as good in that regard. It's the dozens of highly useful gadgets that may allow them to continue even further.
In my interpretation, Space Marines aren't superior because they're a hundred times stronger and tougher, but because they're somewhat (Harker-level) better in every regard. The true Human v2.0, so to say.