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2011/11/20 08:39:30
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Gree wrote:
Except the average size of the legions was ten thousand men. This is clearly stated in the Marine Codex.
Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
2011/11/20 13:30:35
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Gree wrote:
Except the average size of the legions was ten thousand men. This is clearly stated in the Marine Codex.
Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
2011/11/20 14:10:49
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Surely the mere presence of SM in any given theatre suggests that they've got there aboard their own inter-galactic transport, complete with drop pods, support vessels, supplies etc etc.
Much as I like SM, and Guard,and all the fluff which makes up nice toys and a good game, I still tend to think that if I was coming into range of some planet with a war on it, I'd be rather tempted to flatten the opposition from long range (ie space) than mess about getting face to face and doing things with a sword. So much less effort?
2011/11/20 14:13:14
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Gree wrote:I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
So what?
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/20 16:03:48
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Seaward wrote:Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
Um, no?
The Word Bearers, the second largest of all Legions, had a hundred thousand Space Marines.
For comparison the Thousand Sons, the smallest Legion, had about ten thousand, and the Space Wolves had 13,000 unless that has really been retconned.
Where in the Grey Knights codex does it say that the Legions numbered at least a hundred thousand men? Or Prospero Burns, for that matter.
2011/11/20 16:25:51
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.
Wait, so if Stormtroopers are Special Forces, that what role do SM fulfill? Posterboys?
Heavy shock troops, either used in initial assaults or "cleanup" like breaking a siege/stalemate.
5th Company 2000 pts
615 pts
2011/11/20 16:33:20
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Gree wrote:I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
So what?
My opponet does not consider anything outside the Codices canon, therefore it is rather useless to apply it in a discussion with him if he will not recognize it since ''Codices never contridict themselves'', by his claim.
I'm trying to point out they do.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/11/20 16:40:17
2011/11/20 16:49:08
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Seaward wrote:Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
Um, no?
Um, yes. My source is in the spoiler tags, from a discussion on B&C a while back:
Spoiler:
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:Not quite. We were told by the IP manager, at a Horus Heresy meeting (when I asked) that the official canon Legion sizes were 100,000, as laid out in the Chaos Codex and HH: Collected Visions.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Some Internet Guy wrote:The more recent Codex Space Marines disagrees:
QUOTE (CSM @ page 6)
"All was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines -- the Angels of Death. Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable willpower, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor."
(Yes, this is from Mat Ward.)
We can point to loads of codices with the old figures, I know. It's not even BL versus the studio, as the first 12 books of the Heresy series all go with the 10,000 figures, too. It's the past versus the present.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Some Internet Guy wrote:By IP manager, I suppose you mean Alan Merrett? If he's turned to the 100,000 (dark) side, I suppose everything will start to turn towards it, but my point is this: the fluff that has been established has always favored the 10,000 side, and it fits that number best. If it's changed to 100,000, I'm predicting that there are going to be all kinds of problems and inconsistencies that result. And it's just not necessary, in my opinion. 10,000 worked just fine.
Yeah. Actually, Alan's not turning to it, it's his figure. He was the one to begin using it, in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. I asked a couple of meetings ago, citing that the HH series, the IA articles, and the Space Marine codex said 10,000. The Chaos codex and HH: Collected Visions said 100,000. I wanted to know which one we were using, because I needed to note how many Word Bearers knelt in the dust of Monarchia.
Alan said to use the 100,000 figure, because that was the accurate one. We went on to have a hell of an awesome discussion about the sheer scale of the whole deal, but ultimately, it was decided then and there.
EDIT: Before that discussion, I was a proponent of the 10,000 figure, myself. But, damn, that talk changed my perspective. I kid you not, Alan knows everything about 40K. Listening to him in full explanation mode is something pretty freaking killer.
The Word Bearers, the second largest of all Legions, had a hundred thousand Space Marines.
The author of their Horus Heresy series book says otherwise - they had at least 140K prior to Calth.
For comparison the Thousand Sons, the smallest Legion, had about ten thousand, and the Space Wolves had 13,000 unless that has really been retconned.
It's been retconned. ADB says to expect to see the "new" number start showing up in the latest versions of the relevant codices.
Where in the Grey Knights codex does it say that the Legions numbered at least a hundred thousand men?
It doesn't, at least not outright. The "new" number of Second Founding chapters heavily implies that there were a hell of a lot more Space Marines running around than an average Legion size of 10,000 would make possible. Consider; that's 90,000 guys, assuming no casualties in the Heresy at all. Divide that by 400, and you get a mere 225 Marines per Second Founding chapter. Doesn't make sense.
2011/11/20 16:52:57
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Gree wrote:I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
So what?
My opponet does not consider anything outside the Codices canon, therefore it is rather useless to apply it in a discussion with him if he will not recognize it since ''Codices never contridict themselves'', by his claim.
I'm trying to point out they do.
He's a fool. Codices contradict themselves just as much as novels contradict codices. After all previous codices had SM as coming from prisoners ad such but now they're warrior monks and all that. Codices are what makes novels have so many errors like previously codices had Nids use Warp travel and OldCrons use Inertialess drives but now Nids use Narvhals and Newcrons use Webway and Wormholes but previous Novels still have Nids use the warp etc so contradiction.
Its a pain in the ass for all us fluff lovers but GW don't care
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 17:12:48
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/20 16:53:19
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
The Chaos Marines codex actually states that the Legions numbered hundreds of thousands Space Marines each.
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 17:45:20
2011/11/20 17:16:13
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically all Legion number statements before First Heretic are now retconned?
Meh. Whatever.
Yes, is this a problem? How does giving the HHSM's more marines change things? In truth it tries and make 40k or to be more accurate 30k have a small sense of scale but the new numbers are still utterly and ridiculously small for conquering a galaxy.
Hell FFG tries to have a sense of scale when they have blub state that the potential amount of IG troops that have been marched into he Jericho Reach, its a Deathwatch rpg setting, number into 4 or 6 billion.
edit: did you mean hundreds of thousands? If you did BL and GW suck utterly at when it comes to sense of scale.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 17:19:09
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/20 17:17:07
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
The Chaos Marines codex actually states that the Legions numbered hundreds of Space Marines each.
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.
Did you mean hundreds of thousands?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically all Legion number statements before First Heretic are now retconned?
Meh. Whatever.
Yes, is this a problem? How does giving the HHSM's more marines change things? In truth it tries and make 40k or to be more accurate 30k have a smalll sense of scale but the new numbers are still utterly and ridiculously small for conquering a galaxy.
Though they do add some support to the "Space Marines are godly on the battlefield" camp.
And it actually wasn't done for scale, from what I've been told, but was simply a matter of logistics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 17:18:56
2011/11/20 17:22:17
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically all Legion number statements before First Heretic are now retconned?
Meh. Whatever.
Yes, is this a problem? How does giving the HHSM's more marines change things? In truth it tries and make 40k or to be more accurate 30k have a smalll sense of scale but the new numbers are still utterly and ridiculously small for conquering a galaxy.
Though they do add some support to the "Space Marines are godly on the battlefield" camp.
And it actually wasn't done for scale, from what I've been told, but was simply a matter of logistics.
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/20 17:44:29
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Dear god Its just so stupid that I have to do this eve though it could be against the rules:
Oh well we at least have the Imperial army and can rationalize that they are the ones to occupy planets while SM's are the Shock troops.
Why is this stupid you ask? Look at this:
Peak strength of Armed Forces WWII(a friend of mine sent me this, could be wrong) : USSR - 12.5 million Allies USA - 12.364 million Allies Germany - 10 million Axis Japan - 6.095 million Axis France - 5 million - but knocked out of the war in six weeks 1940 China - 5 million Allies UK - 4.683 million Allies Italy - 4.5 million Axis - knocked out of the war in mid 1943 India - 2.15 million - Fought with Great Britain Poland - 1 million - knocked out of the war in 1939 Canada - 780,000 Allies Australia - 680,000 Allies Yugoslavia - 500,000 Occupied but some fought as an insurgency against the Germans and some fought with the Germans - Croatians Romania - 600,000 - Fought on German side Bulgaria - 450,000 - Fought on German side Hungary - 350,000 - Fought on German side + 20 to 30 other countries with smaller numbers contributed
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 17:53:22
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/20 17:54:52
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
The Space Marines are the invaders, they don't really spend as much time occupying planets themselves after they have been brought to compliance, leaving a contingent of Imperial Army with a newly instated Planetary Governor (Though there are a few occasional exceptions).
Edit: Oh and of course they have a lot of support from the Imperial Army and Mars, obviously.
But, yeah, GW often has a bad case of scale, a million Astartes for the entire galaxy is pretty stupid for example.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 17:56:48
2011/11/20 18:05:19
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
The Space Marines are the invaders, they don't really spend as much time occupying planets themselves after they have been brought to compliance, leaving a contingent of Imperial Army with a newly instated Planetary Governor (Though there are a few occasional exceptions).
Edit: Oh and of course they have a lot of support from the Imperial Army and Mars, obviously.
But, yeah, GW often has a bad case of scale, a million Astartes for the entire galaxy is pretty stupid for example.
So the only thing thats makes any sense is that Marines are godly and they have to be cause if all the bloody enhancements they get just makes SM 10 times stronger than normal humans, all I have to say is epic fail. To me Marine's are BL godly, to be clear I don't mean up to Draigo level cause Draigo is fail and from a codexbtw, cause they have to be to make any sense of all their enhancements and numbers. Thats why I consider FW's take ion marines stupid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 18:06:38
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/20 18:10:50
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So the only thing thats makes any sense is that Marines are godly and they have to be cause if all the bloody enhancements they get just makes SM 10 times stronger than normal humans, all I have to say is epic fail. To me Marine's are BL godly, to be clear I don't mean up to Draigo level cause Draigo is fail and from a codexbtw, cause they have to be to make any sense of all their enhancements and numbers. Thats why I consider FW's take ion marines stupid.
Well, depends on your definition of "godly". Also, I didn't accuse you of saying Draigo level, nor do I think the codices are inherently moar better in terms of canonicity to BL.
What is FW's take on Marines?
2011/11/20 18:30:26
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So the only thing thats makes any sense is that Marines are godly and they have to be cause if all the bloody enhancements they get just makes SM 10 times stronger than normal humans, all I have to say is epic fail. To me Marine's are BL godly, to be clear I don't mean up to Draigo level cause Draigo is fail and from a codexbtw, cause they have to be to make any sense of all their enhancements and numbers. Thats why I consider FW's take ion marines stupid.
Well, depends on your definition of "godly". Also, I didn't accuse you of saying Draigo level, nor do I think the codices are inherently moar better in terms of canonicity to BL.
What is FW's take on Marines?
IIRC, which could be wrong as right now I'm a bit drunk and don't have the PDF's with me, 200 Dark Angel SM's die and the Dark Angel Chapter Master got his ass handed to him and for what you ask? They took these losses to destroy a Spaceport whose absence was shown to be utterly irrelevant later in the war.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just checked out some sources: the Dark Angels lost 15 men to fighting the rebels and that was for the early days of the fighting to destroy the Space port. After eight days they fought the Alpha Legion lord and his friends and thats where the Chapter Master got his ass kicked. The full battle for the Space port cost the Dark Angels 200 hundred marines. This would not be much of a problem to me if the Marines weren't limited to just a 1000 members.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/20 18:59:15
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/20 19:24:54
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
As to your Deathwatch quote, Gree, I find it odd because this would actually imply they don't follow the codex to the degree stated in the Marine codex.
It says their siege talent is their character and their doctrine.
The definition of doctrine is: "Military doctrine is the concise expression of how military forces contribute to campaigns, major operations, battles, and engagements.
It is a guide to action, not hard and fast rules. Doctrine provides a common frame of reference across the military. It helps standardize operations, facilitating readiness by establishing common ways of accomplishing military tasks.
Doctrine links theory, history, experimentation, and practice. Its objective is to foster initiative and creative thinking. Doctrine provides the military an authoritative body of statements on how military forces conduct operations and provides a common lexicon for use by military planners and leaders".
Does that sound like the codex astartes to you at all? It probably should. The deathwatch thing is implying that they have their own, distinct, urban/siege specialist doctrine.
Not arguing anything, I know they adhere to the codex as much as possible, but this is just am...amusing way of phrasing it, on Deathwatch's part.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote:That is exactly how it works.
The Space Marines are the invaders, they don't really spend as much time occupying planets themselves after they have been brought to compliance, leaving a contingent of Imperial Army with a newly instated Planetary Governor (Though there are a few occasional exceptions).
Edit: Oh and of course they have a lot of support from the Imperial Army and Mars, obviously.
But, yeah, GW often has a bad case of scale, a million Astartes for the entire galaxy is pretty stupid for example.
In any universe other than 40k where a single battle always, always, ALWAYS decides the fate of the entire planet the SM wouldn't be all that helpful.
With a million space marines for the galaxy, it is a wonder we EVER hear about their battles.
So...+1 basically
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/20 19:28:32
im2randomghgh wrote:As to your Deathwatch quote, Gree, I find it odd because this would actually imply they don't follow the codex to the degree stated in the Marine codex.
It then says two sentences before that they are the ''epitome of a Codex Chapter''
im2randomghgh wrote:It says their siege talent is their character and their doctrine.
The definition of doctrine is: "Military doctrine is the concise expression of how military forces contribute to campaigns, major operations, battles, and engagements.
It is a guide to action, not hard and fast rules. Doctrine provides a common frame of reference across the military. It helps standardize operations, facilitating readiness by establishing common ways of accomplishing military tasks.
Doctrine links theory, history, experimentation, and practice. Its objective is to foster initiative and creative thinking. Doctrine provides the military an authoritative body of statements on how military forces conduct operations and provides a common lexicon for use by military planners and leaders".
Does that sound like the codex astartes to you at all? It probably should. The deathwatch thing is implying that they have their own, distinct, urban/siege specialist doctrine.
Not arguing anything, I know they adhere to the codex as much as possible, but this is just am...amusing way of phrasing it, on Deathwatch's part.
Doctrine for me, would be that the Fists contribute their a seige battle by being more stubbron than say an Ultramarine and being able to hold a position more doggedly. They would not say, dedicate more training to it than any other form of warfare, they don't have a special secret tactic that no other chapter has. They would use the same tactics as an Ultramairne in seige warfare but be a hell of a lot more stubborn in it's application.
Of course in the same article it's noted that the only appearant difference betwewen them and the Ultramarines is the Fists' stubborn nature and that they might not retreat were an Ultramarine would. It notes that in pretty much all other Aspects they are a Codex Chapter.
So the Ultramarines would be like a 100% percent Codex chapter while the Fists would be like a 99% percent Codex Chapter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/20 19:36:46
2011/11/20 19:50:23
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
But really, each and every chapter has it's own unique training and every thing, and the IF were noted in the HH books as being the best at constructing defenses too, so I assume they would at least have extra training in that particular area.
Deatwatch rpg: Rites of Battle pg 98 wrote:War on All Fronts
The Achilus Crusade is a vast undertaking, one so prodigious as to hold the attentions of the High Lords of Terra themselves. As such, Lord Tetrarchus feels the gaze of powers far higher even than him, and has more to prove than any man save those gifted, some would say cursed, with the title ‘Warmaster’ can know. Hundreds of worlds shall stand or fall; billions of faithful warriors shall live or die, all at the word of the master of the Achilus Crusade.
So huge is the military and logistical effort required to maintain the crusade that no single administrative body is in possession of the complete picture. Thousands of Imperial Guard regiments have been committed to the conflict, yet scant few battle honours have been confirmed or allowed to be celebrated on the worlds of their founding. Of the dozens of Cadian regiments committed to the crusade, only two have been decorated for example. For every regiment whose efforts and sacrifices are officially recognised, hundreds more go uncelebrated, the deaths of thousands of bold men and women unmarked and unlamented. The numbers of Imperial Guard fed into this never-ending meat grinder can only be guessed at. At the crusade’s outset, it is possible that as many as a billion soldiers marched to reconquer the Jericho Reach. As the crusade found itself beset by far greater opposition than anticipated, this number steadily increased until an estimated four billion troops were in action. The Officio Munitorum’s best estimates suggest that with the committing of the theatre reserves formally held back by Lord Militant Achilus as many as six billion troops may be operational. How many of these are serving in front line combat units and how many in support echelons and service arms is a matter of heated, if ultimately futile debate amongst Officio Munitorum adepts.....snip of the rest
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
2011/11/21 02:34:50
Subject: Re:40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Lynata wrote:Then they should plan their assaults accordingly. I'm sorry, I fail to see the issue.
I get it, many people simply prefer them to be able to wade through a hail of shots or charge head-on into a fortified position without the defenders even having a chance to take them down. If that's how you like them, that's your interpretation. Mine happens to be somewhat more gritty. As I said, it's not really something worth debating about.
They don't, though. It's like in the Taros Campaign from Forgeworld when Astartes try to take out the Governor, except whereas that was supposed to be a mistake, that's what would happen a lot of the time. You don't just get to hit the enemy general and not end up facing retaliation. With the Astartes numbering as few as they do, and sending a few hundred at most to the majority of conflicts, they'd get hammered if they were fighting anything like a total war scenario when small arms fire penetrates their armour after a few shots. If there were even only equal numbers they'd likely take sufficient shots to lose too many men to take it, let alone should armour support arrive (that said, in Taros they didn't really seem to have much of a plan for extraction, and if that's standard, then they'd like take horrendous losses each time (enough to basically be taken out of the rest of war).
It's not so much because that's how I want to view it (although they really should be significantly better armoured than to be taken down by half a dozen shots from small arms - really, for their cost and rarity that's pathetic) but because I don't see how it makes sense otherwise. As you wish.
im2randomghgh wrote:And the IA have OP marines too. A Crisis suit would be worth several marines in a shoot out, but in the Taros Campaign they had marines and crisis suits at about 1-1
Out of curiosity, do you have sources for this? Because in 'Kill Team', if I recall correctly a Deathwatch Astartes with a bolter is capable of taking down Crisis Suits as well.
2011/11/21 07:10:26
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
So because the Astartes in a Forgeworld book neither have a plan for extraction nor have support from a nearby Imperial Guard regiment keeping the mainstay of the enemy forces busy they have to be beefed up to invulmode in order to not get shot into little bits as soon as the buddies of whoever they just killed can gather their troops from the surrounding areas?
Well, that's just not how I see it working, but I guess we can only agree to disagree on that.
As far as their cost and rarity are concerned, you have to keep in mind that 40k's Marines are just a remnant of a force that was initially much, much larger. And their cost would be justified by them not being 100.000 times better than another trooper, but chiefly by being better at all, by a large gap (though not as large as many novels claim). When your deployment capabilities are limited, you want to get the best boots you have on the ground, and every little bit will help. This does not only go for the Astartes - do you really think the SoB are a cost-efficient army? Hah.
2011/11/21 07:34:37
Subject: 40k Special Forces...The Astartes don't cut it.
Lynata wrote:So because the Astartes in a Forgeworld book neither have a plan for extraction nor have support from a nearby Imperial Guard regiment keeping the mainstay of the enemy forces busy they have to be beefed up to invulmode in order to not get shot into little bits as soon as the buddies of whoever they just killed can gather their troops from the surrounding areas?
There are many battles the SM's can't depend on either the IG or Navy to help them. If they can't survive without the aid of either than they are a joke.
<text redacted; sarcasm tags don't make a post less rude, or less of a violation of Rule #1--Janthkin>
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/11/21 17:40:51
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Lynata wrote:As far as their cost and rarity are concerned, you have to keep in mind that 40k's Marines are just a remnant of a force that was initially much, much larger.
Eh. Nine Loyalist Legions with an average of 100,000 men apiece in 30K, and 1000 Loyalist chapters with 1000 men apiece in 40K. They're roughly the same size as you were, unless you meant they're a remnant of what there was before the Heresy even kicked off.
And their cost would be justified by them not being 100.000 times better than another trooper, but chiefly by being better at all, by a large gap (though not as large as many novels claim).
That gap's not just claimed by the novels, though. All modern codices claim it, too. It's GW's stance, like it or not.
This does not only go for the Astartes - do you really think the SoB are a cost-efficient army?
No.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/21 17:41:21
5th Company 2000 pts
615 pts
Its just so stupid that I have to do this eve though it could be against the rules:
