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im2randomghgh wrote:
30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.

And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...

Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.

Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?

Lynata wrote:Unknown, although I would assume so. Of course you cannot strangle someone using only one arm, though - the other end of the root wants to be held tight, too.

This does bring up the question of why someone like Straken would need the root at all. Unless roots>Marines>Chainfists?

On a more serious note, I'm pretty sure that, although one of Straken's arms is obviously mechanical, his entire body is augmented extensively.

Certainly I would not want to suggest that any normal human has a chance of strangling a Marine. I would expect even their necks having enough muscle to prevent this. Still, I think it's worth pointing out what even CSM Lords are susceptible to. Just like I thought it should be pointed out that Astartes power armour and body toughness, at least according to some GW fluff, are not quite as protective as a lot of people seem to assume.

I don't think anyone would argue that Astartes have an inherent immunity to strangling. I'm pretty sure something stronger than a Marine, like a Necron Lord or Daemon Prince, could pretty handily strangle a Marine for instance lol.

Does that mean that anyone has to change their opinion? No. I'm just pointing at the interpretations of "weaker" Marines (typing this still feels like an oxymoron), as I have a feeling they're consistently being overlooked in favour of the "more awesome/epic/cool" displays of crazy heroics or even an elevation to godhood in certain (especially licensed/outsourced) products that by now are just taken for granted.

You don't need to constantly emphasize that your views are just your opinion of the setting in every post. I've just noticed that you tend to do that a lot now.

In my opinion, it diminishes the role of normal humans and plays down the importance of organizations like the Imperial Guard. It is not the Astartes that hold the Imperium together. In fact, I still think that a mere million Marines is pretty redundant for the overall existence of the IoM, especially considering the fact that a lot of them keep going rogue or kick off one internal conflict after the other. Of course that doesn't change the fact that they are certainly nice to have as a decisive factor in some few high profile conflicts - regardless of how much more powerful you want them to be.

That's really the purpose of the Astartes. Most guardsmen, and most battles in the setting, won't see a Marine make an appearance. Marines usually only show up to change the tide of a war through precise applications of their overwhelming force.

Personally, I haven't read a BL books where Marines have come off as "too powerful," myself (In fact, in Horus Rising, they came off as too weak), but I also have fairly limited experience regarding BL, being limited mostly to the Horus Heresy series.

Out of curiosity, what instances have you seen in BL that stretched your willing suspension of disbelief?

Void__Dragon wrote:

That's really the purpose of the Astartes. Most guardsmen, and most battles in the setting, won't see a Marine make an appearance. Marines usually only show up to change the tide of a war through precise applications of their overwhelming force.

Personally, I haven't read a BL books where Marines have come off as "too powerful," myself (In fact, in Horus Rising, they came off as too weak), but I also have fairly limited experience regarding BL, being limited mostly to the Horus Heresy series.

Out of curiosity, what instances have you seen in BL that stretched your willing suspension of disbelief?

Well in the Dark Hunters short in Legends of the Space Marines, the Dark Hunter was described as 9' without armour, and took and entire lasgun salvo to his bare torso and lived, and his bolter was described as the size of a 10 year old child, and it took a farmer and his son working together to lift his helmet off IIRC, though I might not, as I read it a while ago.

@ The first part, that is the spearhead metaphor so commonly associated with astartes. The spear head makes the spear infinitely more powerful, but the shaft alone would be a right fine weapon either way, as a stave. The spear head would be completely incapable of defeating the shaft if it came to it, and the shaft would be more than sufficient to beat someone into submission, but it really is nice to have that point on the end.

And Horus Rising was one of my favourite marine interpretations, though they came off a bit too strong even in that. We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.

im2randomghgh wrote:Well in the Dark Hunters short in Legends of the Space Marines, the Dark Hunter was described as 9' without armour, and took and entire lasgun salvo to his bare torso and lived, and his bolter was described as the size of a 10 year old child, and it took a farmer and his son working together to lift his helmet off IIRC, though I might not, as I read it a while ago.

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous IMO. I prefer my Marines on average being a little taller than seven feet.

@ The first part, that is the spearhead metaphor so commonly associated with astartes. The spear head makes the spear infinitely more powerful, but the shaft alone would be a right fine weapon either way, as a stave. The spear head would be completely incapable of defeating the shaft if it came to it, and the shaft would be more than sufficient to beat someone into submission, but it really is nice to have that point on the end.

I prefer to think of them as the Emperor's sword, with the Imperial Guard being the mace/hammer. The hammer is used to break open and weaken the strongest points of the enemy through overwhelming force, whereas the sword must be wielded with precision, thrusting into where the enemy is weakest. Though that's just the flowery way I like to think of it.

And Horus Rising was one of my favourite marine interpretations, though they came off a bit too strong even in that. We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.

Nah, I think people are taking Dorn's quote far too literally. A Marine being worth ten men is frankly stupid IMHO. For what they are expected to survive, ten men is not nearly good enough. A single Eldar Aspect Warrior is greater than ten men, for example. Marines are expected to match them.

In Horus Rising, Marines were having their chests, armour and all, blown out by bolters. I must respectfully disagree with Dan Abnett's portrayal of them in that book (He was better in Eisenhorn regarding the Marines, IMO).

im2randomghgh wrote:We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.

We must remember a couple things about that, really. We must remember he probably didn't break out the calculator and do the arithmetic, and that ten's a nice round number versus, say, 23. Or 13. Or 17.45.

We must remember he was talking about Heresy-era Imperial Army, rather than 40K Imperial Guard.

We must remember that if table top rules are genuine reflections of Space Marine power, then he's dead wrong, because you'd be an idiot to take one Tactical Marine over 10 Guardsmen - the 10 Guardsmen would be superior.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Well in the Dark Hunters short in Legends of the Space Marines, the Dark Hunter was described as 9' without armour, and took and entire lasgun salvo to his bare torso and lived, and his bolter was described as the size of a 10 year old child, and it took a farmer and his son working together to lift his helmet off IIRC, though I might not, as I read it a while ago.

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous IMO. I prefer my Marines on average being a little taller than seven feet.

Same, 6'6"-7' is abour right for me. Obviously it would vary by chapter and by individual, as a neophyte who would have been 7' anyways would probably be taller.

@ The first part, that is the spearhead metaphor so commonly associated with astartes. The spear head makes the spear infinitely more powerful, but the shaft alone would be a right fine weapon either way, as a stave. The spear head would be completely incapable of defeating the shaft if it came to it, and the shaft would be more than sufficient to beat someone into submission, but it really is nice to have that point on the end.

I prefer to think of them as the Emperor's sword, with the Imperial Guard being the mace/hammer. The hammer is used to break open and weaken the strongest points of the enemy through overwhelming force, whereas the sword must be wielded with precision, thrusting into where the enemy is weakest. Though that's just the flowery way I like to think of it.

I used to think of it like that, but that makes them sound like two different weapon which isn't generally how I picture them. Usually the IoM's offensives are crusades which feature astartes but are mostly navy and guard. The space marine contingent breaks open the toughest pockets of resistance, and the the IG's lasguns wipe up just about everything else.

And Horus Rising was one of my favourite marine interpretations, though they came off a bit too strong even in that. We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.

Nah, I think people are taking Dorn's quote far too literally. A Marine being worth ten men is frankly stupid IMHO. For what they are expected to survive, ten men is not nearly good enough. A single Eldar Aspect Warrior is greater than ten men, for example. Marines are expected to match them.

In Horus Rising, Marines were having their chests, armour and all, blown out by bolters. I must respectfully disagree with Dan Abnett's portrayal of them in that book (He was better in Eisenhorn regarding the Marines, IMO).

I like Dorn's quote, though I think it is situational. Over his career, a space marine will most likely acquire more kills than 10 guardsmen (depends on the guardsmen and the marines, though) but if you had a tactical on an open field against a platoon of 100 with a commissar, 3 or 4 power fist sergeants, the occasional exotic weapon or bionic etc. It would most likely not end well for the space marines. Really though, it depends on your interpretation.

And IMHO an aspect warrior is worth at least as much as a marine, though they are more fragile, they are much quicker than a marine. Plus korlandril kills ~a dozen marines IIRC. Either way, I respect your view, especially as I once held the same one

As to Horus Rising, I don't think he got the marines wrong, I think he either underestimated PA, or over-estimated the armor-piercing capabilities of a bolter. It would make sense if he had the bolt come in at an angle through a joint and hit their chest...

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.

And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...

Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.

Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?

Going by your lack of response to this post should I assume you concede the argument?

Gree wrote:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.

And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...

Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.

Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?

Going by your lack of response to this post should I assume you concede the argument?

Haha, nope.

Responding partially to what you said in the other thread, derived from a legion and divided from a legion are different things. If I made a new chapter from IF gene-seed, they would be (Guess what!) derived from the IF.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Responding partially to what you said in the other thread, derived from a legion and divided from a legion are different things. If I made a new chapter from IF gene-seed, they would be (Guess what!) derived from the IF.

Except we have a statement that they were derived directly from each of the Second Founding Legions and that the new chapters formed from the division were called the Second Founding.

If you made a new chapter from Imperial Fist geneseed then they would not be created directly from the Legion but indirectly through geneseed.

How about this, go show me a quote that explicitly states chapters were created from scratch separate from the divided Legions.

And we have a very clear quote on the Second Founding taking place seven years after the death of Horus and that each Astartes Legion consisted of ten thousand men on average. So according to you in a mere seven years the Imperium churned out an addition 300,000-400,000 Astartes. If they can make that many Astartes that quickly then why did the Legions only were able to divide into less than five chapters? Why do they have twice as much Astartes than the Emperor did during the Great Crusade with both the combined loyalist and traitor legions? Why does the Imperium only have a million Space Marines if they can create hundreds of thousands of Astartes in less than a decade?

Or this?

Codex Space Wolves

The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller chapters and a code was drawn up to define their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This Code was called the Codex Astartes. Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order a chapter’s size was limited to a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller chapter and continued to keep its old name, but he remaining Space Marine warriors were organized into new chapters.


The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding.

It states that only the Chapters formed from the Legions were the Second Founding.

Codex Marines

Upon the Codex’s implementation, each old Legion became a chapter named for its forebear plus a number of new Chapters. These new Chapters were known as the Second Founding.

Ditto

Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line

He was created directly from a First Founding Chapter. If they were created from scatch just using the geneseed then they would obviously not be created directly.

Gree, you yourself noted that the Ultramarines were churning out Space Marines as quick as they were able, and we know for sure the Raven Guard were doing that, and the others probably were as well. Unless you think there was insufficient gene-seed, in the age where they were actually able to create it from scratch...

As for your last sentence, the reason would be that new foundings only happen on the order of the HLoT, and only in times of great need.

im2randomghgh wrote:Gree, you yourself noted that the Ultramarines were churning out Space Marines as quick as they were able, and we know for sure the Raven Guard were doing that, and the others probably were as well. Unless you think there was insufficient gene-seed, in the age where they were actually able to create it from scratch...

And if they can create hundreds of thousands of Astartes in ten years then why did the Emperor run around with Legions that are stated to consist of ten thousand men if he could easily create much more than that? If the Legions were churning out men as quickly as they were able to then why were most Legions only able to divide into less than five chapters and the Ultramarines only 23 chapters? Where did those hundreds of thousands of new Astartes come from? Why did the Emperor not create Legions that nubmered in the millions each? Why were some Legions unable to divide at all if they could make out that many Astartes easily?

And why do have explicit statements that contradict your claims? Statements that say that the Second Founding were created directly from the first Founding Legions and that they were the only ones that were the Second Founding?

im2randomghgh wrote:
As for your last sentence, the reason would be that new foundings only happen on the order of the HLoT, and only in times of great need.

But why create a million Astartes if you can create billions easily? Imagine the Hive Fleets being countered by several hundred million Astartes.

Lets see...

Special training. Check
Special weapons and equipment. Check
Special tactics. Check
Special missions. Check


Yup SM units would likely have the SF marking on the command maps of their enemies.
Which of course means an higher target priority and more unfair fire.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.

And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...

Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.

Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?

Going by your lack of response to this post should I assume you concede the argument?

Haha, nope.

Responding partially to what you said in the other thread, derived from a legion and divided from a legion are different things. If I made a new chapter from IF gene-seed, they would be (Guess what!) derived from the IF.

But they wouldn't be Second Founding. They would be whatever founding number the Imperium is at right now. They'd be second generation, technically, sure.

And the Ultramarines were huge before the post Heresy. They didn't have ten thousand before the Heresy. They were already the largest Legion because Guilliman was a better logistician, strategist and administrator than the other Primarchs. He'd been setting up more effective pipelines for recruitment and likely writing the doctrines for recruitment and training that became the ones in the Codex. Surely the gene seed was there, it was just after the Heresy, there were much stricter guidelines on how they were to be used and distributed.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They'd be second generation, technically, sure. Where did you get the 400 Second Founding numbers? That doesn't exist anywhere in any fluff, ever.

The Grey Knights Codex states that 400 chapters were made in the Second Founding. Pg. 7.

Obviously the Marine codex does not list 400 chapters. It states that the Second Founding chapters were those created directly from the Legions when the Legions were broken up, not created from scratch. It says that most Legions split into less than five chapters and the Ultramarines split into 23 chapters.

Now I find it highly unlikely that the Imperium could suddenly create hundreds of thousands of Astartes out of nowhere in a mere seven years. (The Marine Codex states that the Second Founding took place seven years after the Heresy)

im2randomghgh has claimed that the codices do not contradict each other and that they are totally canon. I pointed out that they do contradict and I gave him some explicit quotes and I pointed out the gaping flaws in his argument. im2randomghgh is apparently basing his argument on the fact that the Imperium created many chapters from scratch, conveniently ignoring that we have multiple quotes stating otherwise and he actually has no proof himself that chapters were created from scratch.

Of course if the Codices are totally canon then the Ultramarines are the greatest chapter and the Imperial Fists want to be like them. Stated flat out in the Codex.

Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And the Ultramarines were huge before the post Heresy. They didn't have ten thousand before the Heresy. They were already the largest Legion because Guilliman was a better logistician, strategist and administrator than the other Primarchs. He'd been setting up more effective pipelines for recruitment and likely writing the doctrines for recruitment and training that became the ones in the Codex. Surely the gene seed was there, it was just after the Heresy, there were much stricter guidelines on how they were to be used and distributed.

However in the context of the Marine Codex it’s unlikely the Ultramarines numbered in the hundreds of thousands. They only split into 23 chapters for the Second Founding.

Nothing ever has to make sense.

And good lord, I guess I'm completely wrong. I've never close read Codex Grey Knights. Though, to be realistic, 400 Chapters does sound more realistic than the 30 or so. I mean, the Ultramarines should have been split two hundred something times alone.

However, the 23 refers to the Apocrypha of Skaros, which also mentions that all 23 are not named.

Dunno, it's just another giant plot hole. Wouldn't be the first time that happened. It's reasonable to believe that the casualties sustained retaking the galaxy would have been pretty severe. But that would be pretty astounding.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
However, the 23 refers to the Apocrypha of Skaros, which also mentions that all 23 are not named.

But they split 23 times indicating a size of 23,000 Astartes.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Dunno, it's just another giant plot hole. Wouldn't be the first time that happened. It's reasonable to believe that the casualties sustained retaking the galaxy would have been pretty severe. But that would be pretty astounding.

Except the average size of the legions was ten thousand men. This is clearly stated in the Marine Codex. The Ultramarines were noted to be the largest, but to what degree was unknown, but evidence suggests that they were around 23,000 men.

Of course if the Imperium can create hundreds of thousands of Astartes in seven years then why are the Emperor’s Legions only ten thousand men strong?

And im2randomghgh claims the Codices never contradict themselves.

Gree wrote:

Of course if the Codices are totally canon then the Ultramarines are the greatest chapter and the Imperial Fists want to be like them. Stated flat out in the Codex.

Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

This is a post irrelevant to the conversation posted for the purpose of starting a flame war.

Flagged for trolling.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

Of course if the Codices are totally canon then the Ultramarines are the greatest chapter and the Imperial Fists want to be like them. Stated flat out in the Codex.

Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

This is a post irrelevant to the conversation posted for the purpose of starting a flame war.

Flagged for trolling.

And so you accuse the opposition of trolling when they bring up a valid point then?

Validity aside, it is irrelevant and targeted at me specifically, since you have (quite obviously) noticed my love for IF and disdain for UM

im2randomghgh wrote:Validity aside, it is irrelevant and targeted at me specifically, since you have (quite obviously) noticed my love for IF and disdain for UM

I thought you were ignoring me?

and of course we were having said discussion about the Fists in the other thread. In hindsight I should have probably posted it there.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for the answer to my main point.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Validity aside, it is irrelevant and targeted at me specifically, since you have (quite obviously) noticed my love for IF and disdain for UM

I thought you were ignoring me?

and of course we were having said discussion about the Fists in the other thread. In hindsight I should have probably posted it there.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for the answer to my main point.

Oh and go read my most recent post on the other thread.

And and you don't deny your trolling...

And it is not relevant to ANY discussion we have ever, nor shall ever have.

And you can click a button to show a specific ignored post.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Oh and go read my most recent post on the other thread.

You still didn’t address it. Nothing in your post addressed the First Founding numbers.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And and you don't deny your trolling...

What trolling? An accusation you made up because you can’t acknowledge you are wrong on the Second Founding chapter numbers?

im2randomghgh wrote:
And it is not relevant to ANY discussion we have ever, nor shall ever have.

So you are claiming we never talked about the Imperial Fists ever?

Void__Dragon wrote:On a more serious note, I'm pretty sure that, although one of Straken's arms is obviously mechanical, his entire body is augmented extensively.

Well, his other arm isn't. *shrugs* That said, he's a Catachan, that also goes a long way by itself.

Void__Dragon wrote:You don't need to constantly emphasize that your views are just your opinion of the setting in every post. I've just noticed that you tend to do that a lot now.

Mhm. Partially it's because until my, uh, "enlightenment" I was firmly believing in the information I was working it being "canon", as if there would be a single truth to the setting, with facts that everybody should adhere to. Perhaps I am stressing the opinion-thing a bit much because I don't want to be mistaken due to my past position on this. On the other hand, I might also subconsciously attempt to appeal to others. I noticed that a lot of posters are still "trapped" where I once was, which, due to the nature of the 40k franchise, will not serve the debate or may even create false perceptions. Just look at the novel quote war...

Void__Dragon wrote:Out of curiosity, what instances have you seen in BL that stretched your willing suspension of disbelief?

It's mostly the things that other people have quoted in forums like this one. Be it their height, what kind of punishment it takes to kill one (or more often than not what isn't enough), and the effects of their weapons. I'm not particularly well-versed in Black Library products either (my collection contains only about three novels, a short story anthology, two omnibuses, an audiobook and a graphic novel - plus the Primer and the Munitorum Manual), and I tend to stay away from Marine books especially because I am not interested in reading about invincible supermen who are oh-so powerful and mighty. From what I own myself, it is ironically the FFG books where I keep rolling eyes about certain descriptions.

Perhaps my perception is also a bit "tainted" by reading all the hype and praise from various Marine fans (which is particularly bad on the FFG forums, from which I have departed due to "not fitting in") rather than reading the BL material myself, though I know that through several discussions I've seen a lot of quotes that were responsible for further reinforcing my opinion. I should point out I've also read many interpretations that I would deem compatible to my own views, though. Ironically, one of the books I own myself - the Dark Imperium anthology - contained the short story "Know Thine Enemy" from Gav Thorpe, which I had fun reading and which seemed to be "on the same level" as I was, having the Marines be pretty badass but also showing that they are not invulnerable (both from enemy fire as well as their own arrogance).

Seaward wrote:We must remember a couple things about that, really. We must remember he probably didn't break out the calculator and do the arithmetic, and that ten's a nice round number versus, say, 23. Or 13. Or 17.45.
We must remember he was talking about Heresy-era Imperial Army, rather than 40K Imperial Guard.
We must remember that if table top rules are genuine reflections of Space Marine power, then he's dead wrong, because you'd be an idiot to take one Tactical Marine over 10 Guardsmen - the 10 Guardsmen would be superior.

Hmm, a couple thoughts on that:
1. I think it's important to consider that, even if (obviously) highly inaccurate, this quote does indicate a factor closer to 1:10 and not 1:20 or even higher, which is where I see a lot of novels going.
2. The same could be said about Heresy-era Space Marines compared to 40k ones.
3. The actual quote equates 100 Marines to 1.000 other troops. With these numbers, the comparison becomes somewhat more tactical rather than a straight shoot-out. 100 Marines can easily deploy in a way that 1.000 Guardsmen cannot, taking on individual parts of the enemy force rather than facing the full blow that would come with a standard assault. Which is exactly how Space Marines tend to operate (at least given GW's descriptions). In other words: numerical advantage can only be fully exploited if all your men's firepower can be utilized simultaneously. As has been mentioned before, it depends a lot on circumstances. I'm just a firm believer that a Marine will be seriously threatened if facing the Imperial Guard head-on. At the same time, however, I acknowledge that most of the time the Marines would find ways to avoid rushing into trouble. They're not a bunch of Ogryns relying solely on brute force, as much as people tend to stress their supposed invulnerability and superhuman combat prowess. To me, this just makes it way too easy and falsifies their methods of operation. It's just like people only seeing raw damage or armour protection when looking at Marine bolters and power armour, yet these attributes are actually not much different from what other Imperial organizations use - their true superiority comes from other factors.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Oh and go read my most recent post on the other thread.

You still didn’t address it. Nothing in your post addressed the First Founding numbers.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And and you don't deny your trolling...

What trolling? An accusation you made up because you can’t acknowledge you are wrong on the Second Founding chapter numbers?

im2randomghgh wrote:
And it is not relevant to ANY discussion we have ever, nor shall ever have.

So you are claiming we never talked about the Imperial Fists ever?

1, Did I say it did? feth sakes bro.

2. I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the fists.

3. No, I am saying we never argued over whether or not they are codex-compliant.

im2randomghgh wrote:1, Did I say it did? feth sakes bro.

Again, still waiting for that answer.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the fists.

While avoiding my main point for the upteenth time.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. No, I am saying we never argued over whether or not they are codex-compliant.

When DeathlyAngel said this:

@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

You said this:

+1!

I think Gree is the username chosen by Matt Ward.

In other words agreeing with it.

<settle down, before I have to take your toys away>

I agreed with the message, if not the phrasing.

I'll quote it with only the parts I agree with.

@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not entirely yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter (though are still a flexible force) who incorporate their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not necessarily better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

Hold that next to the other one and see the differences.
As you can see there are only a few key things that are different in my...paraphrasing...of it. Plus, it's now correct fluff wise.

im2randomghgh wrote:I agreed with the message, if not the phrasing.

I'll quote it with only the parts I agree with.

@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not entirely yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter (though are still a flexible force) who incorporate their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not necessarily better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

Hold that next to the other one and see the differences.
As you can see there are only a few key things that are different in my...paraphrasing...of it. Plus, it's now correct fluff wise.

Not......... quite. They are not specialized in siege actions like the White Scars are with mobile warfare or the Raven Guard with stealth. They do not orient around seige. (Forgive me, your wording kidn of make sit sound like they are specialised to a degree like the White Scars)They are described as the epitome of a Codex Chapter, seigework would be something they are good at, but more of a supplementary thing to their Codex adherence. (They are after all repeatedly referred to as an epitome of a Codex Chapter. That fluff has not been changed at all.). They do incorporate their Primarch’s teachings and traditions, but they also desire to follow Guilliman’s Codex as closely as they can. (That’s what the Marine Codex says after all)

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:I agreed with the message, if not the phrasing.

I'll quote it with only the parts I agree with.

@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not entirely yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter (though are still a flexible force) who incorporate their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not necessarily better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

Hold that next to the other one and see the differences.
As you can see there are only a few key things that are different in my...paraphrasing...of it. Plus, it's now correct fluff wise.

Not......... quite. They are not specialized in siege actions like the White Scars are with mobile warfare or the Raven Guard with stealth. They do not orient around seige. (Forgive me, your wording kidn of make sit sound like they are specialised to a degree like the White Scars)They are described as the epitome of a Codex Chapter, seigework would be something they are good at, but more of a supplementary thing to their Codex adherence. (They are after all repeatedly referred to as an epitome of a Codex Chapter. That fluff has not been changed at all.). They do incorporate their Primarch’s teachings and traditions, but they also desire to follow Guilliman’s Codex as closely as they can. (That’s what the Marine Codex says after all)

Obviously not to the degree of the scars. They are not a fully compliant chapter even. The Imperial Fists are just siege specialists. It's what they do. They have the training, the experience etc. but their force is not organised any differently. And tbh using them for anything but siege is probably a bit wasteful, considering some chapter out there is probably involved in a siege, and could be doing whatever it is the fists are doing.

And the first time I read it I found it weird that they were so proud they almost went to war with the ultramarines, and then all of a sudden changed their minds and became codex compliant to the point that their armour probably secretly has a blue undercoat lol

im2randomghgh wrote:
Obviously not to the degree of the scars. They are not a fully compliant chapter even. The Imperial Fists are just siege specialists. It's what they do. They have the training, the experience etc. but their force is not organised any differently. And tbh using them for anything but siege is probably a bit wasteful, considering some chapter out there is probably involved in a siege, and could be doing whatever it is the fists are doing.

Not quite through added training if that's what oyu are trying to say. The Fists are suited to siege warfare because of their no retreat character.

Deathwatch Rites of Battle.

There is one particular method of warfare in which the Imperial Fists stubbornness means they are naturally suited: the art of siege. This specialty can be counted as a result of the Chapter’s character and doctrines rather than an adherence to any particular tactics or equipment.

..The chapter is quite willing to engage the enemy in open battle though, and does not seek urban or siege engagements above any other methods of war.

An Imperial Fist won’t dedicate any more training to siege warfare than an Ultramarine would, (They after all are the epitome of a Codex Chapter and follow it closely) but his character will mean he is more stubborn and less likely to withdraw in urban environments.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And the first time I read it I found it weird that they were so proud they almost went to war with the ultramarines, and then all of a sudden changed their minds and became codex compliant to the point that their armour probably secretly has a blue undercoat lol

Dorn is described as only taking issue with the breaking of the Legions in Codex Black Templars. He apparently has no issue with the tactical contents of the Codex Astartes, only the breaking of the Legions.