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infinite_array wrote:

Midnightdeathblade wrote:What about grey knights? they cost the same as marine products, but points wise, they cost twice as much. Same as SW.

What.

Looks at a 10-man tactical squad for $37.25 USD.

Looks at a 5-man Grey Knights squad for $33 USD.

...What?

What he means is you can build a good GK list for less than you could for a marine, or any other army.

I put together a 2000 point list, came out for grey knights at around $370 USD, marines were around $580 USD. Good lists, mind you.

infinite_array wrote:

Flashman wrote:
Want to move onto Flames of War or something different.

Yeeessssss. Join us. Jooooooin us!

Each to his own but... how can you play a game about a real conflict were the miniatures represent people that actually lived and died?

Warhammer and 40k is only as expensive as you want it to be.

DoctorZombie wrote:Each to his own but... how can you play a game about a real conflict were the miniatures represent people that actually lived and died?

Watched any war films lately? Or been to see a movie "based on real events/characters"?

I can't speak for everyone, but for me there are certain periods of time which are interesting; WWI & II, various viking invasions etc... real people died in all of these events but I would still be happy to collect models based on those periods and/or play games set in those periods. I would be more likely to play a game set in WWII than I would a Napoleonic game because I have more interest in WWII than I do in the Napoleonic era - doesn't mean I condone the violence, or wish it to be repeated, or agree with the particular beliefs of any of the combatants - I play a game in a setting I am interested in and enjoy.

After all, do you not play games set in a universe where "very real people" are regularly tortured to death for being a "witch" and entire worlds are set to burn because they are tainted with "evil"? Where a million, million men will march to a war from which none shall return and criminals are turned into mindless man/machines?

DoctorZombie wrote:Each to his own but... how can you play a game about a real conflict were the miniatures represent people that actually lived and died?

I salute your caputre of the moral high ground. Make sure you erect a flag.

I got out of the hobby 15 years ago and just came back recently. Something about the imaginative storyline of 40k just keeps luring me back in.

love the 40k fluff, but fluff isnt enough. i want more dimension to my tabletop games, so i moved on.

I have way too much invested in 40K to ever give it up

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Haven't played a GW game in about six months.

I still read Black Library novels and joined a Black Crusade group a couple weeks ago, and plan on picking up any decent Warhammer video games that pop up in the future, but I have not played any actual GW games in quite a while and don't intend to.

While I love the fluff for WHFB and 40K, I find my current game of choice much more enjoyable and I like how I can get a competitive list for standard sized games for about half the cost of an army for a standard 40K game.

I am finishing off all my 40k and WHFB gear as we speak. Once they are all at 2k points painted and tabletop ready... I doubt ill buy anything from GW for years unless the new Tau codex has new units. Then that will be just a minor update really...

I have thrown my hat into the Flames of War ring. And have already ordered a Fallschirmjager company and am planning on playing FoW til the cows come home.... or someone bitches enough to play a round of 40k now and again. =]

ReturningPlayer wrote:"GW will arbitrarily decide a bunch of models I have don't exist any more "

I keep seeing this argument and tried to find examples, I really can't see many cases where this has happened.

In all hobbies stuff becomes outdated and newer, shinier stuff comes along. Miniature wargaming is luckily one where you are rarely forced to replace what you have except with rules, etc.

its happened before. 3rd ed guard codex had half the armour ripped out, for example. how about chaos dwarves. or squats. a friend of mine had 3 40k armies invalidated by GW rules updating. Rather than being made non-existant, what i find GW does is change whats "good" from edition to edition. the rhino rush army that was so very good in 3rd ed was a crippled mess in 4th. the skimmerspam tau army that was quite decent in 4th is all but unplayable in fifth.

Look at warmachine though. the "buy the new shiny! because its better" marketting ploy of GW doesnt apply. look at the wrath and domination expansions. all the new shiny! is good, and very very useable, but nothing trumps what is already there. battle engines are nice, but you dont need one to be competitive. same with eliminators, gallows groves, the sons of bragg etc etc. what is also interesting is with PP games, theyre specifically designed that *nothing* will be made obselete. most of the original warcasters from back in 2003-Vlad, Butcher, Kreos, Severius, Deneghra, Asphyxious, Skarre, Caine and Haley among them are sill regarded as top tier beasts.

To answer the OP. i dropped 40k for warmahordes when the mk2 fieldtest was being released. this is previous to finecast, international embargoes and even-higher prices. I dropped 40k for a variety of reasons (price not being one of them). Warmachine is everything i could ask a wargame to be.

It's a shame, because there is a general decrease in the amount of people that turn up for veterans night at my local GW :(

I'm getting out because I just don't have the time to spare painting and modeling anymore. Which reminds me, I have some smoking bargains in the swap shop!

infinite_array wrote:

Flashman wrote:
Want to move onto Flames of War or something different.

Yeeessssss. Join us. Jooooooin us!

points at Flashman "one of us, one of us, one of us" If you want to do WWII check out flames of war or Kamfgruppe Normandy (which was written by Warwick Kinrade and other lists are being playtested by Piers Brand (big P from gmg) http://www.warhammer-historical.com/acatalog/Kampfgruppe_Normandy.html There are lists comming out for Kursk, The pacific front and lost of other neat idea's.


If you are into moderens check out Force on Force. It's what I switched to when I 'gave up finally' on GW stuff after 20+ years. I've never looked back, it's one of the best game systems I have ever played ( ymmv). check out the AAG site at www.ambushalleygames.com

If you are into sci-fi you could try infnity, ive heard so many good things about it. Same with Tomorrow's War (also by AAG) great ruleset and it's scale indifferent so you can use all your old GW figgies( which is a big bonus imho).

Good luck with whatever you choose to do. If you have any questions please drop me a PM and I will do my best to answer your questions. =o]

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:Same with Tomorrow's War (also by AAG) great ruleset and it's scale indifferent so you can use all your old GW figgies( which is a big bonus imho).

I did that just last week with my old Imperial Guardsmen.

I tried, but I had to come back.
The hobby is, to me, primary, about converting big and cool stuff, and then, secondary, about showing said cool stuff off. The thing that comes closest to that is Warmahordes, with the Beasts and Heavy 'jacks. But sadly, the community is absolutely despicable around here, and my desire to build HUGE isn't realy satisfied either.
If it were about fluff or rules, I'd be looong gone already. But it's not. It's about ridiculous tanks, giant dragons and titans for me. So I'm stuck with GW...

ReturningPlayer wrote:"GW will arbitrarily decide a bunch of models I have don't exist any more "

I keep seeing this argument and tried to find examples, I really can't see many cases where this has happened.

In all hobbies stuff becomes outdated and newer, shinier stuff comes along. Miniature wargaming is luckily one where you are rarely forced to replace what you have except with rules, etc.

Lost and the Damned.

They sold kits for them, had rules for them, and made them an army list with it's own inherent quirks.

Then GW invalidated the rules. Closest thing you can do is proxy them as Renegade IG.

They did the same to a couple of Fantasy armies as well.

akira5665 wrote:I have way too much invested in 40K to ever give it up

this is the main comment i hear from the majority of 40k players that watch me play another game system at the LGS. with 20,000+ points of orks, 12,000+ point of chaos with everything painted and multiple forgeworld items, including 15+ years of gameplay with GW, sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith. I can only be punched in the face (and wallet) so many times before i walk away.

on the other hand, if you love GW, 40k, the fluff, the game, etc, then rock on, keep at it and enjoy yourself. i just cannot support GW anymore, and my local meta has shifted to warmachine anyways.

Done with GW, haven't looked back.I gave them their last chance over a year ago with the new DE release. While that was impressive all the praise really goes to Jes Goodwin for that one as far as I'm concerned.

Their shenanigans this past year was the nail in the coffin for me.

I only have a few 40k armies left now. Selling them off as I done with the rest. GW are just not what they were back when I started. Even the fluff is losing its appeal. Ive not been able to read a new codex without thinking WTF.....
Recent black library books I have bought I just cant read.
Its a shame but GW keep shooting themselves in the foot with more and more bad decisions. They may turn it around one day but it may be too late.

Plus you also have games like Warmachine, hordes, infiinity, dark age, mantic and to a lesser degree malifaux ( i have gripes with mali) While not all are cheaper (warmahordes) its a better game system and it plays very well. Models may not be great but a lot are and again the gameplay is just so much more

I've been GWing since 1995 or so. This is what GW does. Change the rules so players will have to reconfigure armies. GW hasn't changed their approach to much, the players have changed and changing is new to the players that haven't played 3 or 4 editions.

DoctorZombie wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Flashman wrote:
Want to move onto Flames of War or something different.

Yeeessssss. Join us. Jooooooin us!

Each to his own but... how can you play a game about a real conflict were the miniatures represent people that actually lived and died?

I'd be interested if you could name a single individual in my historical armies who has died.

I've been in love with the 40k fluff for a long time, ever since it came out and I got my rogue trader era minis. I don't see myself totally dropping it in the near future, especially not for other games. I just cant seem to get enough Space Marines!

I've got some malifaux and while the minis are great and enjoyable,to paint, the game itself I don't find very fun and the fluff/lore/artwork is completely unengaging to me. I'm just not a big fan of steam punk.

Bought some war machines stuff but based on my experiences with the cyrix starter set I found the game to be unpalatable. Will give it another try at some other point, but I don't see myself buying new figures.

Infinity interests me a lot and I've bought several figures and they're excellent. I'm slowly reading the rules and look forward to a game. Unfortunately no one plays it in my area.

But no way am I jumping ship from gw as my gaming and painting focus. In fact I wanna finish my dark elf army and even delve into necromunda!

ReturningPlayer wrote:"GW will arbitrarily decide a bunch of models I have don't exist any more "

I keep seeing this argument and tried to find examples, I really can't see many cases where this has happened.

Mere months after I finished my Gnoblar Trappers unit (and mere weeks after finishing the PITA skirmish movement tray I made for them) they were phased out of existence as a unit.

*shakes fist angrily*

Just look at Beastmen if you want a heaping great pile of examples.

- Dragon Ogres, Chaos Trolls, Chaos Ogres and Shaggoth removed from the army list.

- Ungors have to be ripped off their 25mm bases and put on to 20mm bases. The previous army book made players do the reverse of this, so some people have had to deal with the base size of their models changing twice.

Given how many people have quoted ReturningPlayer these examples seem to be pretty easy to find.

Don't forget my Cultists, as well as Noise Marine anything-but-troops.

Che-Vito wrote:

ReturningPlayer wrote:"GW will arbitrarily decide a bunch of models I have don't exist any more "

I keep seeing this argument and tried to find examples, I really can't see many cases where this has happened.

In all hobbies stuff becomes outdated and newer, shinier stuff comes along. Miniature wargaming is luckily one where you are rarely forced to replace what you have except with rules, etc.

Colonel Schaeffer's Last Chancers, Gaunt's Ghost...etc.,etc.

Col. Schaeffer's Last Chancers can easily be used as a counts-as Penal Legion, with Col. Schaeffer himself as a counts-as Commissar Lord. Gaunt's Ghosts aren't illegal in any sense-- in fact, rumor has it that the camo-cloak option was given to the Lord Commissar specifically so you could use him as Commissar Gaunt. Similarly, you could very easily use Bragg as a counts-as Harker (he even gives his unit stealth!).

Generally speaking, except for extreme cases (Squats ahoy!), models don't really get "invalidated," at least not for creative players.

SilverMK2 wrote:I've not bought anything from GW since their RoTW/Price Increase/Finecast slap in the face.

Same here. I promised I would stop buying from GW after all that business last year, and I have't given them a single penny since. I've bought plenty of other miniatures, loads of Fantasy Flight games, and stuff from Soda Pop miniatures, but nothing from GW. I also recently updated my paints with P3 Coat D'Arms and Vallejo. I don't feel GW deserve my custom any more, so they don't get it. Their loss.