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ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

skyth wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

You'd have to be using RT-era Marines for that to be the case. Ever since 2ed Space Wolves have had their own models. I have a ton of the 2ed Metal Space Wolves and Long Fangs - they certainly don't look the same as regular marines of the time. Currently, the Space Wolves set doesn't contain a single component that is 'the same' as a regular Tactical Squad set - even the legs and torsos are different.

I'm not saying I require all that to be used anyway. Just that, when looking at the squad, it's obvious from the models that it's SW and not SM. A hairy sergeant, or a feral look, or something more creative than that. Just, enough distinction so as to not confuse them for regular marines.

I don't have an issue with it as long as it's not proxying a popcan for a drop pod. Or plasma guns are actually plasma cannons, or melta guns. (which is costing me a lot of money, since i was dumb and threw out old sprues or something, and now have no melta guns.)

If it's a old metal model, say, the Sternguard, that come with a powerfist, I'll tell my opponent straight up that there is no powerfist. I'll also share my army list with them.

EDIT: I don't really care if the opponent is using a different type of Marine, as long as they make it clear. The only exception is Grey Knights, since they have enough distinctive wargear for it to really matter.

ArbitorIan wrote:

skyth wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

You'd have to be using RT-era Marines for that to be the case. Ever since 2ed Space Wolves have had their own models. I have a ton of the 2ed Metal Space Wolves and Long Fangs - they certainly don't look the same as regular marines of the time. Currently, the Space Wolves set doesn't contain a single component that is 'the same' as a regular Tactical Squad set - even the legs and torsos are different.

I'm not saying I require all that to be used anyway. Just that, when looking at the squad, it's obvious from the models that it's SW and not SM. A hairy sergeant, or a feral look, or something more creative than that. Just, enough distinction so as to not confuse them for regular marines.

I think just knowing that you are playing a SW army as opposed to a C:SM army is enough as long as the models are armed properly. For Grey Hunters: does each model have some combination of bolter/bolt pistol/CCW? Are there one or two assault weapons, up to one plasma pistol, no heavy weapon, and up to one PW/PF? Then it is a WYSIWYG Grey Hunter Squad.

I think by saying that the models need to have some extra SW bits in order to be WYSIWYG SWs is going a little overboard, especially coming from somebody who proxies old Squat models for IG, and Chimera hulls as Lemun Russ hulls in said army. I love your Squats BTW, but I think you are trying to apply double standards here.

I think thats a bit harsh, since you are hardly going to confuse a squat force with an established codex army list; since it doesn't exist.

If you are in a situation where you are facing Squats it's pretty clear it's something else, but it's also pretty exceptional to face this sort of army.

Where's that dammed Land Train anyway?

ArbitorIan wrote:

skyth wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

You'd have to be using RT-era Marines for that to be the case. Ever since 2ed Space Wolves have had their own models.

Metal models and they came out after the regular marines. I started in 2nd edition with Wolves but I wanted to use the plastics that came in the starter box and the plastics were cheaper/easier to use. So the majority of my models were plastic tactical marines.

I've since repainted them to a different color and used the mixed force to represent any codex I want. However, anyone who would complain about 'being confused' about which codex you are using is someone who I wouldn't want to play against. It just shows that they are more interested in controlling the other person rather than just playing and having fun.

As long as you aren't using friggin' Mountain Dew cans as Drop Pods and cardboard boxes as Land Raiders, I could care less.

I've seen so many terrible proxies in my day that I'm pretty lenient. Or maybe just desensitized.

I don't see what all this WYSIWYG nonsense is all about. I just don't get it.

ArbitorIan wrote:

Yarrick The Necron wrote:I suppose in that case, its pretty darn demoralising but the way you've written it, it just sounds like you've got a bad opponent who hasnt told you before hand what things aren't WYSIWYG.

I'd say that it wasn't nearly as simple as that. You can explain everything at the start of the game, but if, in the middle of the game, I look across the board and see a Tactical Squad, and then have to correct myself and think 'Oh, wait, that's actually some Grey Hunters', then that's going to be quite annoying for a whole game. Even more so if it's an Assault Squad and, say, Skyclaws - which have different stat lines.

In a tournament, I'd say this has the potential to affect the game. One of the players has to constantly remember what the models are. The other doesn't. The fact that the models are so similar is WHY it's confusing.

Cryb wrote:We, too 95% allow that sort of armies if they are convincing enough.

This is generally the rule here as well, and I agree with it. The problem is the definition of 'convincing enough'. Of course, you can paint the models whatever colour you like, or model them however you want.

But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same. In a tournament environment, unless I can look across the table and instantly recognise the army as Space Wolves and NOT Space Marines, then it isn't 'convincing enough', in my opinion.

Do grey hunters wear power armor and have boltguns? Yes. Does that model wear power armor and a boltgun? Yes. Seems WYSIWYG to me. Do skyclaws wear power armor and have x weapons? Yes. Does that model wear power armor and have x weapons? Yes. Its WYSIWYG. I could use space marines as warrior acyolates in power armor with boltguns and its WYSIWYG. It covers wargear, not stats.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: It covers wargear, not stats.

not true. You can't give a grot a pk and call him a warboss.

When a codex has 4 units with distinct rules which all have jet packs and power armor, counting a single mode as any of the 4 unitson a whim is confusing. Sometimes unit special rules or wound profiles or gear which has an added effect, opponents have reasonable expectations those be modeled especially when it is capable of being modeled as GW releases ways to model those units. "I don't wanna!" doesn't always fly.

The issue is people make up bs examples where they are supposedly wysiwyg and then in real life we see a chain sword jet pack unit counting as wysiwyg for regular ccw, power weapons, power fists, and glaives, and the person claims all the units are wysiwyg because the model has power armor and a jet pack.

If the models are actually wysiwyg, people have no issues... The issue is people are pretty loose with their personal definitions of wysiwyg and half the time they are actually using proxies.

skyth wrote:However, anyone who would complain about 'being confused' about which codex you are using is someone who I wouldn't want to play against. It just shows that they are more interested in controlling the other person rather than just playing and having fun.

You can look at it the other way around, though.

Someone who just recycles models could be someone I don't want to play against since they don't care about fun and just want to power game with the same models.

I was at 40k night one week and a dude had Ultramarines. Blue and white, gold trim, decals and the lot. Turns out they were Chaos marines - he had an unpainted Daemon Prince behind a ruin I had missed. I asked him if they represented Alpha Legion disguising themselves - to which he replied nope, just unwilling to buy more models.

The next week I came back and he was playing with the same guys - except now he had a pair of Baal Predators. I asked him if they were Blood Angels now, to which he said yes.

I don't want to sound like a hobby snob but it takes away from the experience for me when my opponent is unwilling to get his army built and painted in a reasonable manner. I don't mind a little proxying here and there to try new things, but to come out to 40k night with Ultramairines with Baal Predators or being led by a Daemon Prince makes it hard for me suspend my disbelief.

skyth wrote:However, anyone who would complain about 'being confused' about which codex you are using is someone who I wouldn't want to play against. It just shows that they are more interested in controlling the other person rather than just playing and having fun.

You're ignoring the corollary - the equivalent of having to consult a conversion table to remember what each unit you're facing "actually" is can easily suck a lot of the fun out of things for your opponent. Do you honestly think that "I demand you let me run these generic SM models as any power armored codex I please" is somehow not controlling, while "I require that I able to tell at a glance what it is I'm facing" is? To suggest that someone who wants a degree of clarity in a game is controlling and unable to have fun says more unpleasant things about you than your hypothetical opponent. Nearly any position on any issue can be made more or less offensive by the demeanor of its holder, of course, but that's the bulk of the issue, here.

You're well within your rights to say "I want to run these models as whatever army/unit I see fit" (regardless of whether that means SW vs. BA or SW vs. Orks) and to be selective about your opponents (regardless of your particular criteria), but the picture you paint of those who feel differently is entirely unfair (and rather offensive, to boot).

[edit:] Semi-ninja'd! That'll teach me to walk away from the computer and post a response upon returning without refreshing the thread, first. Clarence argues at the same comment from a different angle, though, so I'll leave my original comment unchanged.

I'm with Clarence, there is a limit to how much you can proxy I'd reckon, if only for the visual appeal.

So, colors matter on a SM? Does that mean that I'm proxying when I use my black and purple marines as Vanilla Marines or is it only proxying if I want to use a varient chapter like BA or BT?
All that matters to me is that my opponent's models have the correct type of armor and the correct weapon. The color of the model doesn't make a plasma gun do anything different (with the exception of red vehicles and orks/goblins).

Regarding color vs. codex, Leo_the_Rat, I'd say "sometimes." Custom chapters don't come with the same implications as established chapters with their own codices do.

Running gray armored, pelt-strewn, mustached marine models as BA is likely to cause far more confusion than black and purple vanilla models would, as the former are justifiably assumed to be SW. The latter might initially be assumed to be vanilla marines based on the lack of codex chapter-specific iconography/accessories, but it's easier to be corrected when you aren't fighting against quite as blatant visual cues, especially if the custom chapter has some visual cues that suggest a similar style to the chapter of the codex in use.

oadie wrote:Regarding color vs. codex, Leo_the_Rat, I'd say "sometimes." Custom chapters don't come with the same implications as established chapters with their own codices do.

Running gray armored, pelt-strewn, mustached marine models as BA is likely to cause far more confusion than black and purple vanilla models would, as the former are justifiably assumed to be SW. The latter might initially be assumed to be vanilla marines based on the lack of codex chapter-specific iconography/accessories, but it's easier to be corrected when you aren't fighting against quite as blatant visual cues, especially if the custom chapter has some visual cues that suggest a similar style to the chapter of the codex in use.

If you have problems remembering that your opponent told you he was playing BAs with his SW models (that are modeled with the correct wargear) then you probably should consider playing a less complex game. It shouldn't be that hard to remember.

Of course it's manageable, helium, especially if you're already familiar with the full range of codices, but it's still something you have to constantly remind yourself of. For those still learning the ropes it may cause added confusion (you can do X to this Y, but remember that this Y is actually a Z, so you need to roll A instead of B, since your rolls are at -1 because Zs have special rule C, but normally you don't do that - an intentionally ponderous example, as the rules often feel extra cumbersome to new players). For those who want impressive, narrative, cinematic battles, it severely hampers the suspension of disbelief.

Being inept isn't the only reason someone might have issues with a counts-as army across the table. In reality, the lines between color schemes, conversions, and counts-as can get blurry, as they all amount to the same thing, essentially, with varying degrees of severity - rectifying the abstract (rules, stats, fluff) with the concrete (models on the table). Varying priorities regarding those elements are just as likely to derail a game as an inability or refusal to bother remembering what is what.

For me, it all comes down to the looks.
I don't care a single damn what rules you use. I don't care about rules. The army has to look nice. And if you simply take Thunderwolves and slap them with green paint, or no paint at all, even using the SW heads and signs in the process without the dignity to at least remove the runes... then it won't look good.
The rules are a sad joke. If the miniatures don't make up for it, there's no point in playing the game.

And yes, I don't play unpainted armies either. You don't have to win a GD, but at least try for the Emperor's sake!

helium42 wrote:

oadie wrote:Regarding color vs. codex, Leo_the_Rat, I'd say "sometimes." Custom chapters don't come with the same implications as established chapters with their own codices do.

Running gray armored, pelt-strewn, mustached marine models as BA is likely to cause far more confusion than black and purple vanilla models would, as the former are justifiably assumed to be SW. The latter might initially be assumed to be vanilla marines based on the lack of codex chapter-specific iconography/accessories, but it's easier to be corrected when you aren't fighting against quite as blatant visual cues, especially if the custom chapter has some visual cues that suggest a similar style to the chapter of the codex in use.

If you have problems remembering that your opponent told you he was playing BAs with his SW models (that are modeled with the correct wargear) then you probably should consider playing a less complex game. It shouldn't be that hard to remember.

I agree with you there helium. For the most part on space marines, theyre all the same. I will concede that it does matter with other armies theyre not interchangeable, like the warboss, and grot, but for space marines you can buy a tactical squad box and know you have models for 6 codexes.

OP~
As long as you have the corresponding models, I think you will be fine. For example, if you have a Thunderwolf Cav model painted green, red, black, etcI do not think anyone is going to be confused by that.

The problem you will run into, is if you regular marines are not marked clearlys, or you are running mixed units of Bolt Pistol / Cc with Bolters like Chaos can do.

No one, at the GT scene will care if your Space Wolves are Red if the models are right. Similiarly, if you want to run a Wolf Priest as a regular Chaplain, and all the rest of the models in the army are standard, no one will care. I'd almost prefer you to have a neutral scheme, if you are going to Codex Flip Flop honestly. As if you plunk down a Space Wolves army and say "look its my Blood Angels" I'll say "yea ok, go for it." But if those same models are a unique scheme I'll probably be happier. That's the old head gamer in me. But 5 minutes into the game, I really won't care as long as I know what stuff is.

EDIT: There is one thing to note. If you really covert / kit out your army to make it unique and personal. I give you a complete pass to play whatever you want as Marines. I have seen some really sweet marine conversations with pre-heresy, custodian armies, etc. As far as i'm concerned, if you kit that stuff out, and drop significant cash, you play that army every day you want I played against a sweet Custodian army which as "Space Wolves" with Custodians as Grey Hunters, Thunder calv, everything fully converted. I ran into him later saying it was Blood Angels. I smiled and played him. Why? Because his army was sweet and he deserves it because of the effort he put in

The time it gets stupid, is when your SM sergeant has a PW and Combi-flamer and Melta Bombs and WYSIWYG says you should model the Melta Bomb on the model. I have been picked up for this at tournaments and docked points.

I did point out that if this level of ridiculousness is the case, any marine not having Grenades modeled on his torso or body shouldn't be allowed Grenades. They said it's standard wargear, but mine was additional so cost points, I also got marked down on sportsmanship for calling this level "Anal-lity" BS. Still bloody stupid, I now have 6 Melta Bombs on mini 5mm bases that I place at the feet of models who have them. (RIDICULOUS!)

Balance wrote:

The only way it would annoy me is if it was done before each game absed on opponents... I.E. "Oh, you're playing Tyranids? Then I'll field as [Whatever SM Chapter is currently best against Tyranids]"




Balance, this is an excellent point. I agree wholeheartedly.

mwnciboo wrote:The time it gets stupid, is when your SM sergeant has a PW and Combi-flamer and Melta Bombs and WYSIWYG says you should model the Melta Bomb on the model. I have been picked up for this at tournaments and docked points.

I did point out that if this level of ridiculousness is the case, any marine not having Grenades modeled on his torso or body shouldn't be allowed Grenades. They said it's standard wargear, but mine was additional so cost points, I also got marked down on sportsmanship for calling this level "Anal-lity" BS. Still bloody stupid, I now have 6 Melta Bombs on mini 5mm bases that I place at the feet of models who have them. (RIDICULOUS!)

Why is it ridiculous? You're supposed to model upgrades. Melta Bombs are upgrades.

Should you not have to model power weapons as well?

I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

If you're sitting there trying to figure out which paladin has XYZ wound-allocation friendly upgrade by stooping over to stare at a 1-inch model that spends most of the time 4 feet from your face instead of asking 'why are those guys carrying?" and just remembering it then you have bigger issues anyway.

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

I faced off against 1500 points of Grey Knights who were all wearing "Tyranid Suits" once, even though it was a friendly game with guys I've known for years, and was simply to let the chap try out the Codex to see if he wanted to spend the money to collect, I did find it a little irritating remembering that the Warriors were in fact Paladins etc..

Still ripped his face off though...

As for WYSIWYG in general, I try hard to plan my units when I first start collecting an army to make sure they are all modelled correctly, and would like to see the same from my opponent, we all like to try new things though, and as long as there is logic to the substitutions, I'm ok with it.

The easiest solution would be to present a copy of your force list with all the relevant info to your opponent before the game, but I guess we're not all that orgainsed! (Let's face it, if we were, we wouldn't be using Cold One Knights as TWC or whatever!)

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

Look, it's really not difficult, and if you're staring at squad A and squad B, and both are just so horridly modeled that you can't tell who has a flamer or melta, and your contrived game circumstance has somehow led you to a situation where you, say, have to drive a vehicle into one of these squads but not the other one, and you can't remember what your opponent told you the squads were, and you aren't capable of saying ''Hey, just refresh my memory here - WHERE IS THE MELTAGUN?" (a two-second process) then you're either beyond help or pretending that the problem is worse than it really is.

MikeMcSomething wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

Look, it's really not difficult, and if you're staring at squad A and squad B, and both are just so horridly modeled that you can't tell who has a flamer or melta, and your contrived game circumstance has somehow led you to a situation where you, say, have to drive a vehicle into one of these squads but not the other one, and you can't remember what your opponent told you the squads were, and you aren't capable of saying ''Hey, just refresh my memory here - WHERE IS THE MELTAGUN?" (a two-second process) then you're either beyond help or pretending that the problem is worse than it really is.

Or, you forget the fact that either one has a meltagun because Squad A's melta gunner is jut a different colored marine, move your vehicle over and get melta'ed.

It's a courtesy to your opponent.

oadie wrote: Do you honestly think that "I demand you let me run these generic SM models as any power armored codex I please" is somehow not controlling, while "I require that I able to tell at a glance what it is I'm facing" is? .

Yes. Allowing someone to use models that have the appropriate wargear modeled is not controlling. However, insisting that they are painted correctly to allow your opponent to use them is. Calling someone names and insulting them for using Marines from a Tactical Squad box as opposed to a Grey Hunter box is controlling and the sign of being an asshat. The big question is 'are you trying to control the other person's army?'.

With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

Look, it's really not difficult, and if you're staring at squad A and squad B, and both are just so horridly modeled that you can't tell who has a flamer or melta, and your contrived game circumstance has somehow led you to a situation where you, say, have to drive a vehicle into one of these squads but not the other one, and you can't remember what your opponent told you the squads were, and you aren't capable of saying ''Hey, just refresh my memory here - WHERE IS THE MELTAGUN?" (a two-second process) then you're either beyond help or pretending that the problem is worse than it really is.

Or, you forget the fact that either one has a meltagun because Squad A's melta gunner is jut a different colored marine, move your vehicle over and get melta'ed.

It's a courtesy to your opponent.

Yeah if you're completely forgetting about the existence of meltaguns in the enemy army and find yourself incapable of asking your opponent about what's in his army (which is something you should be used to if you frequently forget that he might have meltaguns, a very prominent and dangerous weapon in 40k) then I don't know what to tell you other than get better at the game and notice that as your skill improves your irritation with things that arent' 100% wysiwyg will start to fade. TBH If somoene has that hard of a time in the situation you've described then they probably wouldn't be helped by seeing tiny meltaguns on the table anyway.