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biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

The base model is still the same.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Bond.
Its simple, you ask "what brand of power armored, boltgun wielding guys are you playing?"

Then he answers with "x marines" and you know what special rules your facing.

And then I have to translate every unit into the equivalent unit in the other chapter. The thing is, it may sometimes make quite a large difference and since I'm already thinking about my moves, I dont want to be thinking about what space wolves terminators do that blood angels terminators dont or whatever else.



Anyhow, I'm not saying proxying is wrong, I'm just saying people who insist on respecting the WYSIWYG rule arent either.

Bond wrote:Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

Arms and legs aren't wargear, so they're not technically necessary.

Just staple a boltgun onto a base and you can play using whatever codex you want.

It's brilliant, really.

Question for the anti-proxying crowd: would you consider it proxying if I ran my power-armored, boltgun-wielding Thousand Sons (with powerfist equipped Sorcerer) as Blood Angels? Why or why not?

edit: what about as plague marines?

I dont play Marines, i have a 100% WYSIWYG Imperial Guard army. My point is, a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex A is a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex B. And that your personal preference to have an army painted in the chapters colors, and your love of smoking isnt a WYSIWYG issue.

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Well you have a serious problem with your logic here and that is you don't have to paint blood angels red to use their rules according to GW. The Lamenters are a blood angels successor chapter and they are Yellow. WYSIWYG is specifically meant to pertain to wargear and not to paint schemes. Please show me in the Blood Angels codex exactly what page states that space marines using the Blood Angels codex have to be painted red. You can't because GW does not believe this. You can paint your Blood Angels any color you want.

Your argument is better when you keep it to Space Wolves who actually have different models. Unfortunately the Blood Angels have mostly the SAME EXACT models as other marines. As a matter of fact I can field a Blood Angels army without any Blood Angel specific models at all......

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I dont play Marines, i have a 100% WYSIWYG Imperial Guard army. My point is, a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex A is a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex B. And that your personal preference to have an army painted in the chapters colors, and your love of smoking isnt a WYSIWYG issue.

Wow you obsessed on the smoking thing or what? I just mentionned that to explain why I couldnt buy multiple armies, and if I want to talk about all day long I will, WYSIWYG issue or not, and I wont blame you for being a bloody fascist.


And my point is, if a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex A is a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex B, there wouldnt be a codex A and a codex B.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Your being intentionaly dense friend. The reason a marine can be run in most other marine codex is because its a guy in power armor with a boltgun, and all the other marines have guys with power armor and boltguns. Your model is clearly a Incubi.

If you were to go with "Gribbly space alien" "guy in power armor" and "space elf" and ''space robot'' as your proxy categories, so to speak, then I wouldn't see a huge problem, but the difference in profile and aesthetics between something like a Dire Avenger and a Dark Eldar Warrior is smaller than comparing something like a Vanguard Vet and a Sanguinary Guard and a Plague Marine. What I see alot of is an argument similar to "You can paint tac squad box marines any color you want ergo all power armored imperials should function as appropriate proxies for all other power armored imperials" <-- while I am in favor of proxies (I would rather fight the army you want to field, than fight your checkbook) I don't necessarily think the line of reasoning that's pro-"marines can be any other marines" is as sound as people seem to think it is.

Bond wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Bond.
Its simple, you ask "what brand of power armored, boltgun wielding guys are you playing?"

Then he answers with "x marines" and you know what special rules your facing.

And then I have to translate every unit into the equivalent unit in the other chapter. The thing is, it may sometimes make quite a large difference and since I'm already thinking about my moves, I dont want to be thinking about what space wolves terminators do that blood angels terminators dont or whatever else.



Anyhow, I'm not saying proxying is wrong, I'm just saying people who insist on respecting the WYSIWYG rule arent either.

Ummm don't you think your taking that a little too far? If you are going to insist on WYSIWYG as a rule you should know what that rule was intended to mean in the first place.

So if I built my space wolves five years ago I would have to buy all new models? Because you do know that five years ago they were the same exact models as the vanilla marines with an upgrade sprue?

Bond wrote: " biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.


Why?



Because the wargear is the same. "


That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Not counting the fact that playing space wolves as blood angels, or blood angels as dark angels is just plain annoying from a visual point of view and just spoils the game for the opponent. Just play the army you have, goddam it.


If the models dont count lets just do like we used to do with magics (yeah, the card game) and play with pieces of paper with gak written on them, I mean why not, as long as you wrote the right wargear.........................

You do realize that the various SM codex's cover successor chapters too, and that many wear different colored armor than their founding chapter? There can certainly be grey BAs just as easily as there can be red SWs. Take your ADHD meds and try to focus a little bit and you won't have problems with this in-game.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Nope, but a PA marine, armed appropriately can be used for either.

brettz123 wrote:

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Well you have a serious problem with your logic here and that is you don't have to paint blood angels red to use their rules according to GW. The Lamenters are a blood angels successor chapter and they are Yellow. WYSIWYG is specifically meant to pertain to wargear and not to paint schemes. Please show me in the Blood Angels codex exactly what page states that space marines using the Blood Angels codex have to be painted red. You can't because GW does not believe this. You can paint your Blood Angels any color you want.

Your argument is better when you keep it to Space Wolves who actually have different models. Unfortunately the Blood Angels have mostly the SAME EXACT models as other marines. As a matter of fact I can field a Blood Angels army without any Blood Angel specific models at all......

That was a manner a speech meaning : I need to recognize them immediatly as following the rules for blood angels, be it through their armor scheme or the iconography on the armor.

The color of a model has nothing and I mean nothing, for WYSIWYG. I can't belive I even needed to write that.

skyth wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

The base model is still the same.

It's funny that biccat chose Space Wolves vs Ultramarines for his particular line, because the "Base Model" for space wolf grey hunter is actually 100% different components from the space marines in the Tactical Squad box. The torsos and legs are even different.

biccat wrote:QED.

biccat wrote:

Bond wrote:Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

Arms and legs aren't wargear, so they're not technically necessary.

Just staple a boltgun onto a base and you can play using whatever codex you want.

It's brilliant, really.

Question for the anti-proxying crowd: would you consider it proxying if I ran my power-armored, boltgun-wielding Thousand Sons (with powerfist equipped Sorcerer) as Blood Angels? Why or why not?

edit: what about as plague marines?

Wow, I mean is that a real question? Yeah, it's proxying. Why? Because they look like thousand sons, not like blood angels or plague marines. I'd let you do it, but yeah it's proxying, because you dont play the model as what it's meant to represent. I would let you play them as vanilla marines though since pre-heresy thousand sons are still thousand sons...


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WOW I write whole, clear paragraphs that SHOULD have shut you up a while ago, and you all get me for the color example. Remember the skull face chaplain guys? I didnt put that in the sentence for nothing, quote whole sentences, and try to understand them before you do so. You remind me of those people in class who always raise their hands to answer the easy questions but hide when the teacher asks a difficult one.


Anyhow, if you think asking you to respect the WYSIWYG rule is being an donkey-cave, you're just out of reach.

Bond wrote:

biccat wrote:

Bond wrote:Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

Arms and legs aren't wargear, so they're not technically necessary.

Just staple a boltgun onto a base and you can play using whatever codex you want.

It's brilliant, really.

Question for the anti-proxying crowd: would you consider it proxying if I ran my power-armored, boltgun-wielding Thousand Sons (with powerfist equipped Sorcerer) as Blood Angels? Why or why not?

edit: what about as plague marines?

Wow, I mean is that a real question? Yeah, it's proxying. Why? Because they look like thousand sons, not like blood angels or plague marines. I'd let you do it, but yeah it's proxying, because you dont play the model as what it's meant to represent. I would let you play them as vanilla marines though since pre-heresy thousand sons are still thousand sons...

What if there Blood Angels that I painted with Thousand Son colors becouse i like that better. Is that proxying if I use them as BA.

No because the iconography reminds me every second that they are blood angels (come on, blood drops all over the place?) or at least a chapter affiliated with blood angels. Why the hell not? You're trying to play blood angel models as blood angels? Wow those questions arent as smart as you think you know.

Would probably look pretty ugly though.

What I desing my own markings, not all BA units are BA only boxes. So no icon, maybe I don't like BA icons, so I remove them. Is that still good.

Noir wrote:What I desing my own markings, not all BA units are BA only boxes. So no icon, maybe I don't like BA icons, so I remove them. Is that still good.

And for the bonus round - what if he paints them all light red with a cyclops motif? Is he proxying them as Thousand Sons then?

So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels.




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MikeMcSomething wrote:

Noir wrote:What I desing my own markings, not all BA units are BA only boxes. So no icon, maybe I don't like BA icons, so I remove them. Is that still good.

And for the bonus round - what if he paints them all light red with a cyclops motif? Is he proxying them as Thousand Sons then?

Heavy conversion and proxying isnt the same thing : the cyclops motif actually justifies using vanilla marines as thousand sons. Proxying is taking a model that looks like chapter A and using it as chapter B. Converting a model from chapter A to make it look like a model from chapter B is not proxying.




Your examples stop working from the moment you start converting the model to make it look like what you want it to be.

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it. .

Wait, it's the color of the armor that gives them FNP and not the guy with the chalice amongst them. I need to repaint my army red when I play you so that I can have FNP. Because it's obvious that anyone who paints their army red can only be painting blood angels and not some other chapter of SM.
Does that mean my yellow armored lamenters can't have FNP because they don't have red armor? Or that it is a proxy for a "legitimate" blood angel chapter? How about the split black/red armor of the Angels Sanguine? You seem to be confusing the color of the armor with the function of the figure. And even all blood angels don't have red/black armor (see the Sanguinary guard [gold] and death company [black]).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it. .

Wait, it's the color of the armor that gives them FNP and not the guy with the chalice amongst them. I need to repaint my army red when I play you so that I can have FNP. Because it's obvious that anyone who paints their army red can only be painting blood angels and not some other chapter of SM.
Does that mean my yellow armored lamenters can't have FNP because they don't have red armor? Or that it is a proxy for a "legitimate" blood angel chapter? How about the split black/red armor of the Angels Sanguine? You seem to be confusing the color of the armor with the function of the figure. And even all blood angels don't have red/black armor (see the Sanguinary guard [gold] and death company [black]).

I answered that already, and if you reread the sentence I mentionned that the chaplain was the one that gave FNP. It's not smart to say stuff people have already said (all of it, even the lamenters example) and that the opponent has already answered. Color was just an example. Answered that sucker-punch question like twice already, go reread and then return.

We've all kind of established Bond will rant for the strictest interpretation of WYSIWYG, and he's really welcome to do so.

I have yet to see a legitimately skilled player really worry about whether he's going to 'forget' that you have a powerfist in your squad or that your assault marines have meltabombs, etc

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels..

Well then what if I had a Death Company unit in there. Using a Death Company box just removing the icons.

rigeld2 wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:The time it gets stupid, is when your SM sergeant has a PW and Combi-flamer and Melta Bombs and WYSIWYG says you should model the Melta Bomb on the model. I have been picked up for this at tournaments and docked points.

I did point out that if this level of ridiculousness is the case, any marine not having Grenades modeled on his torso or body shouldn't be allowed Grenades. They said it's standard wargear, but mine was additional so cost points, I also got marked down on sportsmanship for calling this level "Anal-lity" BS. Still bloody stupid, I now have 6 Melta Bombs on mini 5mm bases that I place at the feet of models who have them. (RIDICULOUS!)

Why is it ridiculous? You're supposed to model upgrades. Melta Bombs are upgrades.

Should you not have to model power weapons as well?

Actually you've got everything "Arse about face here" (British term for wrong end of the stick). If you go with pure blue blood WYSIWYG, you would need a box of Sergeants for every Tactical Squad box (to cover all the wargear options). Bearing in mind that not every Marine has a Bolt Pistol modelled on them, yet they get them. Not every Marine has Grenades has them modelled, yet everyone has them WYSIWYG is frankly aspirational. Do you ask where the Signum is on a Devastator Sergeant? Do you not let you opponent Pop-smoke on his Rhino if he has no launchers? Do you not let him have extra Armour because you cannot see it on the outside of the vehicle? Have you ever identified a Digital Weapon? Or how can you prove it is Master crafted (because I say it is!). At a tournament you should give a nice list to your opponent and he/she can read it and you can also make a logical system. #1 Rhino carry's #1 Squad with nice decals so it's all logical etc etc and I have to say players like this because it is logical for them to follow.

Even at Tournament play level we all talk about this and most of us agree that true WYSIWYG is too hard to achieve we would need armies twice as big and many different special characters. Some the same with minor differences, "This one has an AUX Grenade Launcher, but otherwise is identical to the last miniature i showed you "is monumentally silly both in terms of loadout options and resources (money, time, painting). We can all make a leap of faith on this, if you cannot surmount this ideological hurdle then the idea of Mock Model soldiers hypothetically fighting out a fantasy war in miniature scale using Cubes of Chance and faux weapons, well that sunshine, is gonna blow your tiny little mind.

mwnciboo, wins, Frawress Victory

Bond- Actually you haven't answered the base question. Which is how is color relevant to what function the model has. As long as the models has the proper equipment then it meets the WYSIWYG rules. It even states that right in the rulebook page 47.
You might find it more convenient for your memory if your opponent follows your expectations but it just doesn't meet the RAW. The opponent is under no obligation to paint his models in any particular way to meet the requirements of any codex of which I am aware. If there is such a rule I would be happy to concede that color is indeed important to the game.
Sorry to hear that you can't figure out your opponents army without them having a color scheme that you expect.

Bond, how can you tell the difference between a BA 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers and a Sgt. w/thunder hammer, and a C:SM 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers and a Sgt. w/thunder hammer? Are you confused yet? Hint, these are made from the same kit...

I never said it was about color, nor am I a WYSIWYG nazi as others seem to be stating. I am not saying it's really about my memory either. I'm saying, and if you go back that is my original statement, that if you want to play space wolves as blood angels I will let you do so, but will consider you an donkey-cave.

You may choose any color scheme you want, and convert as much as you want, but PLEASE let the models look like what they are meant to represent. Space wolves models DO NOT resemble blood angels in the slightest way, and therefore I consider it stupid (unless for playtesting purposes) to play that way.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:Bond- Actually you haven't answered the base question. Which is how is color relevant to what function the model has. As long as the models has the proper equipment then it meets the WYSIWYG rules. It even states that right in the rulebook page 47.
You might find it more convenient for your memory if your opponent follows your expectations but it just doesn't meet the RAW. The opponent is under no obligation to paint his models in any particular way to meet the requirements of any codex of which I am aware. If there is such a rule I would be happy to concede that color is indeed important to the game.
Sorry to hear that you can't figure out your opponents army without them having a color scheme that you expect.

I didnt, because it was a stupid question, the answer of which we all know. I'm not saying the color is relevant, I'm saying blood angels or armies played with blood angels rules need to have something visible linking them to the blood angels : that can be color, iconography, whatever you want, but something showing that these are descendants of sanguinius. Is that being a nazi? I dont think so, it just help everyone enjoy the game more


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Noir wrote:

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels..

Well then what if I had a Death Company unit in there. Using a Death Company box just removing the icons.

If you removed all the icons and stuff reminding that they are Death Company, you've converted them in the way that they aren't Death Company anymore haven't you?

You're right; it isn't about color, but it isn't about BA or SW iconography either. You keep forgetting that there are successor chapters covered by the various SM codex's in question. And every BA successor, doesn't resemble BAs, same with SWs, BTs, DAs, etc... So it perfectly reasonable to build a bunch of marines in any color and use them for any of the above codex's.

MikeMcSomething wrote:We've all kind of established Bond will rant for the strictest interpretation of WYSIWYG, and he's really welcome to do so.

I have yet to see a legitimately skilled player really worry about whether he's going to 'forget' that you have a powerfist in your squad or that your assault marines have meltabombs, etc

Yeah well it would break that player's balls if you had 5 tactical squads, with all of the sargeant models wearing power swords, but with 3 of them listed as having power fists. Asking every time you charge if the sargeant has a power fist or not is not a big effort, but it's still more annoying than not having to do it.


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helium42 wrote:You're right; it isn't about color, but it isn't about BA or SW iconography either. You keep forgetting that there are successor chapters covered by the various SM codex's in question. And every BA successor, doesn't resemble BAs, same with SWs, BTs, DAs, etc... So it perfectly reasonable to build a bunch of marines in any color and use them for any of the above codex's.

It's lazy. non-fluffy and selfish, but probably legal, if you stretch the definition of what is legal or not.


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I'm not a tournament player, but maybe someone who has been in many tournaments could tell us if this is acceptable or not. Were I to organize a tournament, I would not consider it legal if no effort is made to make a visible link between the models and the codex they are submitted to


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Anyhow, as I've already stated many times, I let people do whatever they want, I'm just saying whining about people who DO insist on WYSIWYG like the OP did is not fair to these people who are just trying to enjoy the game : they made an effort to stick to their codex, and so should you.

It would be perfectly legal for me to buy 10 praetorians, assemble them with the rods, and use them as crypteks (nowhere is it stated that cryptek NEED to have only one eye), but I wont do it. It just seems fair to make a minimal effort to convert them so that SOMETHING tells you they're crypteks.


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And that is my last post for tonight (french time : 1 AM), good night to you all.

Bond wrote:


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helium42 wrote:You're right; it isn't about color, but it isn't about BA or SW iconography either. You keep forgetting that there are successor chapters covered by the various SM codex's in question. And every BA successor, doesn't resemble BAs, same with SWs, BTs, DAs, etc... So it perfectly reasonable to build a bunch of marines in any color and use them for any of the above codex's.

It's lazy. non-fluffy and selfish, but probably legal, if you stretch the definition of what is legal or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

You've just won the award for most asinine comment in the thread. If I had a third arm, I'd be triple face-palming right now, but since I don't I'll simply settle for a double. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul.