Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lucky I actually ended up lurking on the forum some more. Send all the videos you want and insult all you want, but what I've said is still true. If you think otherwise, and that using the same army to represent ALL space marine chapters is not lazy, is fluffy, and is not selfish, I have the pleasure of sending this back to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU


Also, please leave God and my soul out of this.


"L'intelligence doit etre la chose la mieux repartie du monde, car personne ne semble en desirer plus qu'il n'en a." Descartes, biatch.

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels.

.

Again show me in the codex where it says you have to do that? And you obviously don't know much about space marines because there is no separate blood angels box for tactical marines or devastators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bond wrote:
I'm not a tournament player, but maybe someone who has been in many tournaments could tell us if this is acceptable or not. Were I to organize a tournament, I would not consider it legal if no effort is made to make a visible link between the models and the codex they are submitted to

Well I have played in probably 40 or so tournaments including a couple grand tournaments back in the day (3rd edition days anyway) and you are 100% incorrect. GW does not demand you have any specific colors or iconography on a space marine in order to use a specific codex. Your position is completely ignorant. All chapters have an unknown number of successor chapters that can be fielded with any color or iconography they want.

You have been repeatedly asked to show where it says in any rule book that you have to paint or put iconography on a model to have it fit into a specific army yet you refuse to answer this simple question. It blows my mind that people still think like this.

Now I don't think you should use space wolves as blood angels but it isn't against any rules as long as your model with a power fist represents a guy with a power fist etc..... etc.......

Bond wrote:Wow, I mean is that a real question? Yeah, it's proxying. Why? Because they look like thousand sons, not like blood angels or plague marines. I'd let you do it, but yeah it's proxying, because you dont play the model as what it's meant to represent. I would let you play them as vanilla marines though since pre-heresy thousand sons are still thousand sons...

Yes, it's a real question to people who don't think playing SM as BA is proxying.

I agree with you wholeheartedly: yes it's proxying. I'm curious if people who disagree with you think it's proxying.

Oy.

MikeMcSomething wrote:It's funny that biccat chose Space Wolves vs Ultramarines for his particular line, because the "Base Model" for space wolf grey hunter is actually 100% different components from the space marines in the Tactical Squad box. The torsos and legs are even different.

I didn't choose it by accident, I did so on purpose.

If someone wants to talk about using Space Sharks as Ultramarines there shouldn't be any issue (assuming the only difference is paint color).

I don't think that using a figure painted as some vanilla marine as a blood angel is proxying. Since the codex doesn't require a specific color scheme for any chapter due to all the unknown successor chapters.

There's no way anyone can say that only wolves have fur trimming on their armor or only blood angels have tear drops as their iconography.

Ergo as long as you have the appropriate armor and weapon selection(s) a marine can be any type of marine that the rules allow.

In fact the only instance that I can think of where the rules call for a specific color for an effect is the "red ones go faster" rules in the ork codex.

A question aimed more at courtesy than tournament-rulesing;

I want to fiddle my tactics with Termagaunts, see how many Fleshborers and how many Devourers I want to run with. Unfortunately, I had to choose when I was modelling, and while it's possible to switch them around, it's a fiddly and often breaking conversion to do (depends on your tools, glue).

If I distinguish the units with clearly different carapaces, and tell my opponent beforehand, are there many people I'm going to encounter with a problem with a Devourer-modelled unit having Fleshborers, or visa versa? All I can imagine are GW stores, which aren't really an issue for me (I like my Tervigons too much).

This is another thread that pops up each month, and no one will ever agree on.

-If you're playing in your house/club/basement then it's going to be up to your own group to set the rules.

-If you play at a store, the store may have rules. If they don't, it will depend on the group.

-If it's a tournament, the TO will have rules and make a decision.

Play how you want to, or by the rules your local area uses. Don't like those rules? Find another group. Don't like how people 100+ miles away play? Complain on the internet

But seriously, these threads never change anyones mind. They just degenerate until people start insulting each other and get locked.

Winterkit wrote:
If I distinguish the units with clearly different carapaces, and tell my opponent beforehand, are there many people I'm going to encounter with a problem with a Devourer-modelled unit having Fleshborers, or visa versa? All I can imagine are GW stores, which aren't really an issue for me (I like my Tervigons too much).

If the event requires WYSIWYG, then you are not WYSIWYG. If I faced this at a tourney, I would probably be upset as I shouldn't have to check a color-coded list to "see what I get", especially when everyone else is getting the advantage of "getting what they see". And in a 3 day tourney where decisions are made quickly in timed games, every little burden does impact decisions and mistakes can win or lose games. You should *NEVER* burden your opponent by not following the rules of the event even if you feel the rule is stupid or not a big deal.

In Casual play, you can ask if opponents consent to proxies and most people won't have an issue. But never assume or expect that people will accept proxies or that your proxies are WYSIWYG just because you want to swap weapons/armor/stats/unit type every game. A Shoota boy is not a Slugga boy, an Assault Marine with chainswords is not a Sanguinary Guard with glaives and deathmasks, A chainsword is not a Powerfist. If you want to do any of those, ask your opponent if you may proxy some things. If it is for a legitimate reason like playtesting or a low number, most people will be cool. If you rant about the unfairness of GW's bitz system and proxy an entire unit/army, expect resistance.

I say that as long as you ask first and explain the differences in model to what they are being used for before the game, then it's all right.

brettz123 wrote:

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels.

.

Again show me in the codex where it says you have to do that? And you obviously don't know much about space marines because there is no separate blood angels box for tactical marines or devastators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bond wrote:
I'm not a tournament player, but maybe someone who has been in many tournaments could tell us if this is acceptable or not. Were I to organize a tournament, I would not consider it legal if no effort is made to make a visible link between the models and the codex they are submitted to

Well I have played in probably 40 or so tournaments including a couple grand tournaments back in the day (3rd edition days anyway) and you are 100% incorrect. GW does not demand you have any specific colors or iconography on a space marine in order to use a specific codex. Your position is completely ignorant. All chapters have an unknown number of successor chapters that can be fielded with any color or iconography they want.

You have been repeatedly asked to show where it says in any rule book that you have to paint or put iconography on a model to have it fit into a specific army yet you refuse to answer this simple question. It blows my mind that people still think like this.

Now I don't think you should use space wolves as blood angels but it isn't against any rules as long as your model with a power fist represents a guy with a power fist etc..... etc.......

Maybe you should learn how to read before you answer. Saying "yeah, it's proxying to me", doesnt mean it is illegal or that it is proxying to everyone, that is my opinion and I consider it to be fair and I'm entitled to it.

There is nothing in the rules against using purple painted marines as BA one day and SW the next, but 40k is a crappy game to begin with, which means that I derive my pleasure from playing it in the imagery that it evokes.

This kind of proxying, much like other kinds as well, lowers my enjoyment of the game because it forces me suspend my disbelief in order to remember "metagame" stuff. Therefore I generally refuse to play with anyone that uses proxies.

Besides, this type of behaviour just reeks of FotM'ism (tm), you've chosen a certain chapter, stick with it!

Does mixing pre and post heresy equipment in the same army also lower your fun since you have to suspend your disbelief to account for that as well? How do you handle a player that mixes characters together that lived years apart? If you feel that the game is crappy but you love the fluff then you should just read the books and not play the game.
I believe that the definition of a "proxy" is substituting a model for a different type of model (or at least that's always been what I've been told). How is painting a model changing its type? I guess you'd refuse to play my blue blood angels (with no iconography) since blue is not one of the "official" colors that blood angels wear even though the models have the correct weapons and armor ?

I agree with PhantomViper in the sense that it IS more enjoyable to play with or against an army painted and assembled in a way that gives it a real feel and an identity coherent with the rules it is following.

It isnt so much about colors as it is about identity : if your blood angels are blue but they still remind you and your opponent (and people watching) that they are linked to sanguinius, then not only is there nothing to criticize but it is also original, so it's cool.

But if you are trying to pass off grey-painted space wolves models as blood angels...I dont know, it just doesnt feel right. Even though I'm pretty competitive when I play, I still like to let myself be immersed in the universe and see the battle as an epic story. It's not that easy when the opponent's army is totally incoherent or if he's proxying all over the place.

Note that we are not really talking about WYSIWYG or legality anymore, this is just about how we enjoy the game.

Also, "Besides, this type of behaviour just reeks of FotM'ism (tm), you've chosen a certain chapter, stick with it! ". I totally agree.

From a TO standpoint I care primarily about weapons, base size and "confusion aspect". If its the right weapons, if its the right size and isnt designed to confuse the opponent then Im okay with it.

As a player, I tend not to care at all

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Does mixing pre and post heresy equipment in the same army also lower your fun since you have to suspend your disbelief to account for that as well? How do you handle a player that mixes characters together that lived years apart? If you feel that the game is crappy but you love the fluff then you should just read the books and not play the game.

Please tell me that you aren't seriously trying to dictate to me how I should enjoy my hobby?

What do you care if I put restrictions in the armies that I choose to play against? I'm not talking about tournament games (since I choose not to participate in 40K tournaments any more, if I wan't a good tournament game I'll just play FoW or WM), so whatever restrictions I wan't to put up are between me and my opponent.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I believe that the definition of a "proxy" is substituting a model for a different type of model (or at least that's always been what I've been told). How is painting a model changing its type? I guess you'd refuse to play my blue blood angels (with no iconography) since blue is not one of the "official" colors that blood angels wear even though the models have the correct weapons and armor ?

You are right, I would not play your "Ultramarine Angels".

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I still maintain that power armor is power armor, and that my guy in power armor with a boltgun is WYSIWYG for any other guy in power armor with a boltgun from any other codex that has guys with power armor and boltguns.

In other words a marine is a marine. The only exception is grey knights due to their unique loadout. However if i had tac squads with stormbolters and the nemisis weapons hes a WYSIWYG model.

Agreed. If weapons and equipment are WYSIWYG then it is, and is the only thing required by GW itself.

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:A black templar painted space marine is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine.

If a "black templar" space marine model is different than an "ultramarine" space marine model, then you certainly are proxying.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, just like I wouldn't care if you proxied shoota boyz for hormagaunts. But you're still proxying.

You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Bond wrote: " biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.


Why?



Because the wargear is the same. "


That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Not counting the fact that playing space wolves as blood angels, or blood angels as dark angels is just plain annoying from a visual point of view and just spoils the game for the opponent. Just play the army you have, goddam it.


If the models dont count lets just do like we used to do with magics (yeah, the card game) and play with pieces of paper with gak written on them, I mean why not, as long as you wrote the right wargear.........................





Automatically Appended Next Post:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Great post. May give some people here ideas...

Really, you're saying you don't have the mental capacity to adjust from grey to purple, that the color inevitably alters your view of your opponent? Codex changes must sure kick the crap out of you then.

kronk wrote:You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Can I run my Thousand Sons as "counts as" grey hunters? Or would that be proxying?

What about if I ran them as "counts as" plague marines?

MikeMcSomething wrote:Our friend had no money, so he used those old bags of blank bases as proxy armies. He played 1850pt dual lash princes, ork mobs, and Necrons with nothing but black bases, flipped over bases, and bases with the occasional mark written on them as models. Great player, and we had great games, and nobody ever magically forgot where the meltaguns were. This stuff isn't hard.

Indeed. I've played against entire armies of chit warriors in 40K, EPIC, and BFG. Amazingly before computers and GW there were games made up completely of chits. Guess what, they were orders more tactically complex than GW cough***panzerleader***
I'm shocked that as functioning individuals, people can't overcome a color change. Lord help you if someone comes in with a fully decked out counts as army like Squats...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bond wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Well you have a serious problem with your logic here and that is you don't have to paint blood angels red to use their rules according to GW. The Lamenters are a blood angels successor chapter and they are Yellow. WYSIWYG is specifically meant to pertain to wargear and not to paint schemes. Please show me in the Blood Angels codex exactly what page states that space marines using the Blood Angels codex have to be painted red. You can't because GW does not believe this. You can paint your Blood Angels any color you want.

Your argument is better when you keep it to Space Wolves who actually have different models. Unfortunately the Blood Angels have mostly the SAME EXACT models as other marines. As a matter of fact I can field a Blood Angels army without any Blood Angel specific models at all......

That was a manner a speech meaning : I need to recognize them immediatly as following the rules for blood angels, be it through their armor scheme or the iconography on the armor.

I guess your opponent saying "Yea, I'm playing Dark Angels," doesn't do that for you?

What if I played Dark angels but show up with a black army. Is that wrong, even though pre heresy marines were black and were often black in RT? Would it be wrong for me to call you out if you then put a green army on the board FOR NOT BEING WYSIWYG?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

skyth wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

The base model is still the same.

It's funny that biccat chose Space Wolves vs Ultramarines for his particular line, because the "Base Model" for space wolf grey hunter is actually 100% different components from the space marines in the Tactical Squad box. The torsos and legs are even different.

biccat wrote:QED.

Now maybe. Not earlier. Does that mean only current models work for you?

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Can I run my Thousand Sons as "counts as" grey hunters? Or would that be proxying?

What about if I ran them as "counts as" plague marines?

Do they have the right war gear? Then yes.

Are you using a flamer for a plasma gun? That would be a proxy. I'd allow you a few before it got annoyingly hard to remember.

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Can I run my Thousand Sons as "counts as" grey hunters? Or would that be proxying?

What about if I ran them as "counts as" plague marines?

Of course it obviously would in both cases. I'd let you do it, but it would be.



Also to all the weak guys flaming about the color argument because they were unable to participate to the real debate, you should read a little more attentively. It's simply is about the army looking as what it's supposed to be : red space wolve models dont make them blood angels, but grey blood angels models can still be blood angels. However, red blood angels models (death company sprue for example) will NEVER be space wolves. If you think otherwise...well I just give up. If you guys think it's right to buy 5 boxes of ultramarines, paint them purple and then play them on the same day as blood angels, dark angels, space wolves and vanilla marines...well fine. I just think it kills part of the hobby and the fun because your army has no real "feel" to it, and therefore I'm playing against some kind of ghost army with no real identity, making the battle just a game that we could have played with bits of paper with stats written on them. Why buy and paint models if I can do that? Because the hobby is much more than that.

And variety is the spice of battle. Why limit yourself to using just one list when your army could work as a list from 5-6 different codecies? If you don't like it, blame GW for coming up with 5-6 different Marine codexes, don't blame the player for taking advantage of that interchangability.

Everyone likes changing up their list, but if someone wants to swap out one model in a list, you don't insist that they buy, assemble, and re-paint every other model in the army.

WYSIWYG Is just a scam for GW to sell models. I dont have a problem with x counts as y unless its completely stupid for example this pebble counts as a reaver titan.

Balance wrote:I've made this statement before, but I feel ultimately WYSIWYG is 'politeness.'

When you meet someone new or in a formal situation, you tend to ramp up the politeness. When it's a more casual situation, you can relax a bit. Your friends overlook behavior that might not be acceptable in tenser situations.

In a tournament I would expect WYSIWYG to be stricter (according to the prevailing guidelines of the player base). In a game with a new player, if I'm not 100% WYSIWYG, I feel I should be making up for that as best I can: Simple swaps ("This army has no flamethrowers. Any flamer you see is actually a Meltagun.").

I try to be polite. That includes during a game.

Completely agree with this. I know it's an oft-posted cliche, one of the things people seem to pick on as part of GW's 'most important rule', but a game between two players requires a level of decency, of good manners towards your opponent.

Now take for example, the prospect of one marine codex played as another, and how two people might propose this in different ways to their opponent, in the setting of a Pick-up game (which I think is where the issue lies).
Player A: "These green marines are Grey Knights, alright?"
Player B: " Would you be happy playing my Grey Knights army? I don't have the models yet/am not willing to buy an army just yet, but just wanted to try out a few games with them before I invest."Goes on to provide a clear explanation of what each model is proxying as, and continues to do this throughout the game"

Now I'm pretty sure that most people here wouldn't have a problem with player B, but that player A would immediately put your hackles up. I have encountered both of these player types (thankfully, mostly B) and generally it goes hand in hand with someone who is able to relate to other human beings in a social setting, and someone who isn't. I could almost guarantee which of those 2 players would provide the most 'fun' game, and which one wouldn't.

The other important issue here (and again this ties in with issues of that 'social contract') is providing some thought for your opponent. It sounds a strange thing to say, but putting a lot of effort into my own army is as much for my opponent as it is for myself, in that I want them to have a good experience.

If I could provide an example of my own, years ago I ran a Necromunda campaign in a store. We had about a dozen or so players coming in, some I knew well and others I didn't. I put a great deal of effort into the campaign; making scenarios, terrain, special rules and even helping a couple of guys do some conversions with their gangs. We played one multi-player scenario called 'The thing from the Sump' (some veteran WD readers may remember this one), which saw multiple players and their gangs trying to kill a mutant blob as it chased (and ate!) their gang members. After a particularly cinematic ending to the game, which saw a ganger sacrifice himself so others could blow the thing into a pit, one of the players (someone I didn't know well) came up to me afterwards and remarked that it was the most fun he had ever had playing a wargame.

To me this single comment meant more than any other victory I have had or will have playing a game - it is a fulfilling of that 'social contract' part of the experience. To me, poor effort with proxying. WYSIWYG, or whatever you want to call it, is a kind of anathema to providing a mutually fun experience. When carried out like player A above (and to be honest, if it happens commonly, even player B) It is saying "I don't care about your experience, I just want to play". It shows a lack of respect for your opponent, and a failing in one of the fundamental components of what makes tabletop wargaming so much fun. As I said however, this is more with regards to PUGs, rather than a mate playing in your garage.

skyth wrote:Yes. Allowing someone to use models that have the appropriate wargear modeled is not controlling. However, insisting that they are painted correctly to allow your opponent to use them is. Calling someone names and insulting them for using Marines from a Tactical Squad box as opposed to a Grey Hunter box is controlling and the sign of being an asshat. The big question is 'are you trying to control the other person's army?'.

With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

I'd like to point out that at no point have I ever said that anyone has to paint their marines 'correctly'. As I said in my first post, you can do whatever you want with your models. I'm also aware that the rules for WYWIWYG only mention wargear - and that it is rules-legal to run your Blood-Angel painted marines as Space Wolves if you so wish.

However, it is my OPINION that running, say, Ultramarines as Space Wolves is confusing to your opponent, and should not be allowed in tournaments, as it confers unfair advantage. Even if you tell the opponent at the start of the game. The reason it's confusing is that the models have different rules but look very similar. Therefore, the very fact that it's Marines we're talking about is WHY it's confusing. Using a proxy Ork Warboss as a Broodlord in your otherwise WYSIWYG Tyranid army would be much LESS confusing, for example.

skyth wrote:I think by saying that the models need to have some extra SW bits in order to be WYSIWYG SWs is going a little overboard, especially coming from somebody who proxies old Squat models for IG, and Chimera hulls as Lemun Russ hulls in said army. I love your Squats BTW, but I think you are trying to apply double standards here.

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

Not to be picking on you, but those Lemun Russ' you have in that army are built upon Chimera platforms. There is much more chance to confuse an opponent there than with oddly colored yet still properly armed marines. Also, who is to say that there isn't an ultramarine blue colored SW successor chapter, that does not adorn itself in wolfy wolf pelts, and wolf teeth, with wolf bones hanging all about them?

helium42 wrote:

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

Not to be picking on you, but those Lemun Russ' you have in that army are built upon Chimera platforms. There is much more chance to confuse an opponent there than with oddly colored yet still properly armed marines. Also, who is to say that there isn't an ultramarine blue colored SW successor chapter, that does not adorn itself in wolfy wolf pelts, and wolf teeth, with wolf bones hanging all about them?

You REALLY think those look more like Chimeras than Leman Russes? That it's not obvious? If that's the call then OK, then I'll happily bring another army. No worries. And can I expect the same of anyone fielding Ultramarines as Space Wolves?

Again, my point is that because 'oddly coloured' marines look very similar, they are confusing. BECAUSE they look very similar, they are confusing. I know they're almost the same models. I know they're armed the same and wearing power armour. That is why it's confusing.

And if we go down the fluff route, who's to say there isn't a Space Wolf successor chapter that have streamlined their armour, lost their wolf pelts, and figured out a way to create female space marines. Hey presto, my SoB army are now Space Wolves! Tournament legal! Hurrah! One of the good things about 40k is that fluff can justify anything - I'm talking about what it's acceptable to ask your opponent to have to do in addition to just playing the game, and at what point that gives you an unfair advantage.

As long as they tell you which codec they are using it's not an unfair advantage any more than Tau plasma not having the 'gets hot' rule.

ArbitorIan wrote:

helium42 wrote:

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

Not to be picking on you, but those Lemun Russ' you have in that army are built upon Chimera platforms. There is much more chance to confuse an opponent there than with oddly colored yet still properly armed marines. Also, who is to say that there isn't an ultramarine blue colored SW successor chapter, that does not adorn itself in wolfy wolf pelts, and wolf teeth, with wolf bones hanging all about them?

You REALLY think those look more like Chimeras than Leman Russes? That it's not obvious? If that's the call then OK, then I'll happily bring another army. No worries. And can I expect the same of anyone fielding Ultramarines as Space Wolves?

Again, my point is that because 'oddly coloured' marines look very similar, they are confusing. BECAUSE they look very similar, they are confusing. I know they're almost the same models. I know they're armed the same and wearing power armour. That is why it's confusing.

And if we go down the fluff route, who's to say there isn't a Space Wolf successor chapter that have streamlined their armour, lost their wolf pelts, and figured out a way to create female space marines. Hey presto, my SoB army are now Space Wolves! Tournament legal! Hurrah! One of the good things about 40k is that fluff can justify anything - I'm talking about what it's acceptable to ask your opponent to have to do in addition to just playing the game, and at what point that gives you an unfair advantage.

No, I'm saying your opponent might be confused because they are looking across the table at chimeras, and they're getting lemun russ' instead. That seems like it would be much more distracting than marines of different colors.

If you had appropriately armed battle sisters, they would make good counts-as marines. PA, check, bolter, flamer, converted for whatever other weapon options, check.

- Shenanigans removed. How about we try to keep the discussion a little more civil from here on out? -