Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alpharius wrote:

djones520 wrote:There is no question about it. The Alpha Legion are traitors. They didn't turn to serve the Imperium. They turned to save the galaxy. Alpharius was shown what would happen to the Galaxy if the Emperor won, and what would happen if Horus won. The better outcome for the galaxy as a whole (of the two options) was Horus winning. What he wasn't shown was the actual outcome, ie Horus losing, but the Emperor being mortally wounded and no longer guiding the Imperium.

So yes, the Legion is a traitor, and in essence their reason for doing so was pointless since it never came to pass.

You speak with an authority and a surety that you cannot possibly posses!

The Abnett-verse spelled this out specifically. You're just stirring the pot.

I like the theory (I didn't come up with it), that Alpharius was loyal to the Imperium but Omegon, as the hidden twin who was ignored even more than Alpharius, got spiteful and turned traitor. When Reboute Gulliman killed Alpharius he put the Legion in Omegon's hands, inadvertently turning one of the Imperium's most important allies traitor.

I agree with the majority it seems here. They turned with the intention of destroying Chaos but this was only known to the commanders. As the Heresy failed AND Alpharius or Omegon killed (I personally believe one was) the other simply became corrupted and the legion was corrupted with him.

I also believe Cabal was actually working for Chaos but whatever (I always though the Cabal story was incredibly stupid)

I loved Legion, but personally, I love burning them to death with my Ultrasmurfs!

Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Traitor. Destroying Chaos means nothing if Mankind is obliterated in the process. The Emperor would be furious at the twins.

Yet chaos cannot be wholly destroyed while humanity survives

True...but what the Emperor intended was not to destroy Chaos itself, but the Chaos Powers...He wanted a balance between Chaos and Order in order to keep Mankind progressing - too much order like in the 41st millennium results in stagnation, while too much chaos results, in well, total destruction. That's what the Emperor wanted: balance. Of course, neither the Powers nor the Eldar would want that to happen - if Mankind succeeded in balancing it's urge for destruction with creativity and craving for stability, they would either be destroyed or replaced.

Aye that's what I was looking for well said


I'm personally leaning towards the whole civil war within the alpha legion. Even with the whole hydra symbol, chopping off one head and sprouting two doesn't necessarily mean the two heads will think the same

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Traitor. Destroying Chaos means nothing if Mankind is obliterated in the process. The Emperor would be furious at the twins.

Yet chaos cannot be wholly destroyed while humanity survives

True...but what the Emperor intended was not to destroy Chaos itself, but the Chaos Powers...He wanted a balance between Chaos and Order in order to keep Mankind progressing - too much order like in the 41st millennium results in stagnation, while too much chaos results, in well, total destruction. That's what the Emperor wanted: balance. Of course, neither the Powers nor the Eldar would want that to happen - if Mankind succeeded in balancing it's urge for destruction with creativity and craving for stability, they would either be destroyed or replaced.

Aye that's what I was looking for well said


I'm personally leaning towards the whole civil war within the alpha legion. Even with the whole hydra symbol, chopping off one head and sprouting two doesn't necessarily mean the two heads will think the same

One of the two brothers serves Chaos and the other serves the Emperor...

My guess? The utterly divisive nature of the Heresy is revealed when even the twin brothers end up fighting on either side.

However we've been lacking a clear picture as to why Horus, whose change of heart is the keystone to the entire 30k and 40k universes, chose to make a go of it for himself. So far we have marines not being happy, 'administratum', and.. erm.... Horus being stabbed by a magic sword and growing dark circles around his eyes. I keep thinking that McNeil was rushed at the time of False Gods, and the actual reasons for the Heresy occuring in the first place will be re-visited, although the further we go into events the less likely that will be.

Without it however the whole premise of the Heresy, and really every book that comes from it, is woefully lacking I feel.

Alpharius wrote:That story is from their old Index Astartes article and was from WAY before the Omegon 'revelation'.

Basically, we have no idea about their true intentions or loyalties.

Sadly, however, unless Dan Abnett can write all of their background, we're going to get shortchanged, as seen in "The Hunt for Voldorius" by Andy Hoare, "The Long Games at Carcharias" by Rob Sanders and yes, even their depiction in "Deliverance Lost" by Gav Thorpe.

BL editorial can't seem to decide what they are, and at times seem to forget about "Legion" entirely...

What happened in those stories specifically Alpharius if you don't mind elaborating?

"The Hunt for Voldorius" paints them in classic full on mustache twirling Chaos Bad Guys, murdering billions 'just because" (well, that and so that Voldorius can become a Daemon Prince, I guess).

Would have been better to have used Word Bearers.

In "The Long Game" everyone seems to forget that while Roboute despised Alpharius, Alpharius ignored Roboute.

Though there is a pretty funny line about removing Roboute Guilliman's sons from the galaxy, a thousand at a time...

Basically, the nuanced, layered and mysterious Alpha Legion from "Legion" has been replaced with goofy cardboard cutout caricatures...

Alpharius wrote:My guess is that the only Legion with literal Brother Primarchs will have its own civil war, and some will side with Alpharius and some will side with Omegon - the chance to hammer us over the head with the comparisons to the Horus Heresy overall are too good and obvious to pass up.

I actually thought this after reading DL. It seems that they are setting one brother up to be the bad brother and one to be the good. From the feel of DL, Omegon goes bad and Alpharius goes good. I guess we'll see though.

pretre wrote:

Alpharius wrote:My guess is that the only Legion with literal Brother Primarchs will have its own civil war, and some will side with Alpharius and some will side with Omegon - the chance to hammer us over the head with the comparisons to the Horus Heresy overall are too good and obvious to pass up.

I actually thought this after reading DL. It seems that they are setting one brother up to be the bad brother and one to be the good. From the feel of DL, Omegon goes bad and Alpharius goes good. I guess we'll see though.

Probably so...

And this would also explain why all we have 'now' are the cartoon villain versions of the Legion.

So sad...

Alpharius wrote:Probably so...

And this would also explain why all we have 'now' are the cartoon villain versions of the Legion.

So sad...

I think there may be an M Night in store for you though... Who knows, maybe the guy in stasis recovering from a Fulgrim inflicted wound is really Alpharius ... muhahahahah

Man. How many times has this question been asked? Personally, I say their traitors. Fluff-wise; traitors. Until GW or BL decide to advance the plot already, that's the truth.

I think as Alpharius says, a lot of it depends on whether Dan Abnett gets to revisit them or not in a sequel to Legion, No-one else seems to be able to write them as anything other than white cat-stroking bad guys, possibly living in a hollowed out Volcano.

Personally I would have much rather had a Legion 2 than the "and then x blew up y" of Know No Fear.

Both! I mean, Alpha Legion are supposed to be broken down into a number of autonomous cells right? I imagine that some are still loyal to the IoM and some have succumbed to Chaos.

If you look at Alpha Legion background in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, it describes how they started waging their own campaign and setting their own military objectives without real reference to what others were doing.

Their "degeneration" may take a different form. They may very well still think they are fighting for a goal, but they may be deceiving themselves. They may set military objectives as if they were still fighting some organized campaign, but the real objective may simply be to cause random mayhem. They may have lost their true purpose without knowing it.

For example, they may justify raiding and blowing up Imperial supply depots or capturing interstellar transports as disrupting the Imperium's supply lines, but their true effect on the overall logistical situation may be minor, insignificant or irrelevant (if for example the sector has surplus capacity or is not actively engaged in war). In reality, it may just be piracy under a different name, even if they don't themselves believe it to be such.

Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding.

With their decentralized structure, it may also be a situation of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Instead of any coherent plan, they might just be individual units acting like any other warband, though in this case they might still be convinced they are serving some higher purpose.

Personally, I think that they are split about 3/4 evil and 1/4 good. Most the legion is chaos undivided, and also most of the legion joined Alpharius and Horus on Istvaan III (I think it was?)m in a complete heretical and undeniable massacre. However we know (I think) that Omegeon, despite playing a smaller role, did stick good with about 1/4 of the Alpha Legion.


Just a thought:
you could call the good half the Omega Legion lol.

Loyalist, obviously. Duh. Nothing the Legion does is ever straight forward. But remember that loyal to the Emprah is not the same as loyal to the imperium. The imperium has gone far astray from the golden days of the great crusade. Anything the Legion has to do to further their goals of bringing to pass the Emprahs vision for humanity they will do.

Once a traitor always a traitor , dispatch them at the bayounet of a lasgun

Traitors indeed, but their motivations are different and not purely the worship and following of Chaos. They have a longer game and their own plans, they may even be unknowingly in the hands of Tzeentch.

Traitors. They chose to save the galaxy rather than save the Imperium.

Urien_Rakarth wrote:Personally, I think that they are split about 3/4 evil and 1/4 good. Most the legion is chaos undivided, and also most of the legion joined Alpharius and Horus on Istvaan III (I think it was?)m in a complete heretical and undeniable massacre. However we know (I think) that Omegeon, despite playing a smaller role, did stick good with about 1/4 of the Alpha Legion.

Not sure where you got this. In the most recent novels, it looks like Alpharius will end up being the good one.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Traitors. They chose to save the galaxy rather than save the Imperium.

And this is the truth right here! Either way, they are traitors.

Alpharius wrote:That story is from their old Index Astartes article and was from WAY before the Omegon 'revelation'.

Basically, we have no idea about their true intentions or loyalties.

Sadly, however, unless Dan Abnett can write all of their background, we're going to get shortchanged, as seen in "The Hunt for Voldorius" by Andy Hoare, "The Long Games at Carcharias" by Rob Sanders and yes, even their depiction in "Deliverance Lost" by Gav Thorpe.

BL editorial can't seem to decide what they are, and at times seem to forget about "Legion" entirely...

Aha, the BL editorial department has clearly been infiltrated by an Alpha Legion cell and is utilising them to transmit a campaign of misinformation

Iracundus wrote:
Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding.

You'd have a pretty hard time justifying anything they do in the present day as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor" since mostly what they do is bathe in the blood of babies.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding.

You'd have a pretty hard time justifying anything they do in the present day as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor" since mostly what they do is bathe in the blood of babies.

In order to keep substandard babies growing to full term, as well as to keep their skin silky smooth as a sign of their devotion, the LOYAL Alphas all bathe in the blood of substandard babies.

As a fanboy and as someone who is just simply interested in the legion, I think that the idea of a civil war would be cool, but I think if there is then the loyalists are losing, especially after 10,000 years of infighting. But i just hope to the god emperor that there are some among their number that remained true!

I think it is split in a very weird way. I think that Dan Abnett wrote the Alphas very well in Legion. I'll go one step bolder and say that he and Aaron Dembski-Bowden should be the only men allowed to write Primarchs. They are the only ones thus far who have characterized the Big Brothers with enough gravitas for my taste. But back to the question at hand, I think that the Alphas are of two minds about the topic. I think some of them are loyalist, albeit in bizarre, 'manipulate the Imperium into fights they need to undertake' or 'destroy Chaos from inside' ways, and are ultimately doomed to failure, making their story all the more tragic. I also think that some of them really are traitors, albet in a self-serving, 'Chaos does not order me, I order it' kind of way.

I think IF Alpharius / Omegon or both are alive, they should still be loyal. Primarchs have iron will, so they could keep straight goal for 10k years fighting both Imperium and chaos..

If neighter of primarchs are alive, I think that sooner or later legion would had succumbed to chaos.. Unless there was some individuals individuals as Dante, famous Draigo and and the like, who could keep whole legion or at least some warbands loyal to the Emperor. If legion is still loyal, they would quickly disperse of unloyal heads, I think that would be their priority, so "purity" would be preserved.

Still, I think it all comes down to individuals who are leading Alpha Legion.

Void

If anyone has read the Siege Of Vraks Books then they will know that the Alpha Legion are most certainally Traitors.



For those reasons which are pretty damning makes them traitors.

4th edition chaos space marines names the AL responsible for the destruction of the emperors swords and the fall of Ghorstangrhad to chaos (whatever that means). Plus as others have cited other recent novels showing the AL as purveyors of chaosyness and evilness......However-

Personally I don't believe they fell to chaos. I like the grey areas, this is where the AL reside.

possible spoilers

Also I find it fascinating they seemed to be pitted against some of the strongest/notorious legions, fighting conflicts against Ultras/wolves/whitescars (index astartes IV)......unknown conflicts against the word bearers. Plus with the new HH content mastermind the Isstvan strategy, this is one busy legion right? Also the short story in AoD with the killing of a WE battle barge crew, not the scope of fighting fleets or legions I know but is every Legion infiltrated to the extent where they could easily (seemingly) capture a battlebarge? I'd like to comment on DL but i think the major alpharius character is somewhat confusing, though maybe it's done on purpose because of the AL psych conditioning essentially making the deep cover infiltrator begin to believe himself to be a true RG brother.

As to the battle on Eskrador, well whether or not the inquisitors dossier on the AL could have been true, Ultras deny their primarch killed the AL primarch. So Eskrador is likely a cover up for something or complete fabrication.

Actually because of the speed of the creation of the AL and little known info on the founding of the Legion I always thought the AL were cloned, despite been outlawed in the imperium this was my own personal idea on the AL when I played all them years back, not from any source.

Maybe we'll have to wait for John Grammaticus to shed some light on this matter, until then i'll stick with d4 chans interpretation of AL background

ALPHA LEGION

Battle Cry-----------------"For the Emperor!"
Number-------------------XX
Original Homeworld---Uh...
Current Homeworld---Well...
Primarch------------------Alpharius Omegon
Champion----------------Er...
Strength-------------------Hmm...
Specialty------------------
Allegiance----------------You see...
Colours-------------------Blue... sometimes. Maybe green.

Wonder if the Ordo Hydra have any connection the Alpha Legion.